Military co-operation between the Axis powers of WW2

WW2 isn't a particular strongpoint of mine and at the moment my class is working on coaliton warfare and i'm being bored out my mind with WW1 and WW2 with anything i am interested in e.g Ancient, Medieval etc being ignored.

Anyway, i have to do part of a presentation with a few fellas from my class of Coalition warfare with my part in the proceedings based on the military side of the Axis powers based mainly on military co-operation , planning, campaigns etc.

Anything would be great apart from the "Italians were crap..." which we all know anyway:laugh4:

There was cooperation on most fronts:
- Fall Gelb - after the allied front had broken the Italians attempted a supporting offensive through the alps, but failed to achieve any break-through
- Eastern front - there were Italian and Romanian troops covering one of the critical areas at the flank of the Stalingrad pocket during Soviet operation Uranus, but it probably wasn't their fault though that they couldn't hold the massive USSR offensive. There were Romanian and Italian troops in other parts of the eastern front too.
- The German invasion of Greece that postponed Operation Barbarossa was due to the Italians failing there.
- The most successful cooperation between the axis was perhaps Rommels Afrika Korps consisting of both Germans and Italians. Again, Rommel moved in because the Italians failed. There was some successful cooperation between the Italian fleet and Luftwaffe in the Mediterranean.

...those are all examples I could think of right now...

One would be the Military cooperation with German and Finnish troops in Lappland and Northern Finnland on Operation Barbarossa from the start of the operaton untill Finland made peace with Soviet Union and started Operations to drive away the German Army out of Lappland on 15.9.1944.
Germans Had the 20th Mountain Army and 5th Air Army in Lappland that was assigned under the German army in Norway,at the peak it consisted of over 200 000 German and Austrian troops.Finnish 3rd Army(2 divisions),was assigned under the German Mountain army. The Goal was to capture the main port of Russia on Ice Sea,Murmansk and also cut the railroad connection to South from Murmansk near Kiestinki.
Both Operations failed becouse the German troops were highly motorized and the lack of Roads and strange enviroment restricted their movement also The Oppsing Russian forces were mostly Elite border guard divisions and brigades. The attack on Murmansk halted completely after very little advancing from the Finno/Soviet border.And after the stop they grouped on defence where they stayed until 1944.
At Kiestinki area the Germans and the Finnish troops attacked together to cutt of the Murmansk railroad.There the Finnish troops succeeded on cutting it by moving through the forests but the Motorized troops of Germans couldnt follow becouse Soviets stopped their attacks through the roads.
After some fighting the Finnish troops retreated back also under the secret orders from Finnish Commander in Chief Marshall Mannerheim.
Becouse in the Fall 1941,Germans had failed to meet Finnish troops at Aunus Peninsula in order to cut of the area of Leningrad completely,the Finnish Command decided to stop further attacks before that object would be fullfilled.In which the Germans failed to fullfill on the rest of the war.

Cheers boys that info is great. Really helpful many thanks:2thumbsup:

The Hungarians were also at Stalingrad. The Italians were placed in between the Romanians and Hungarians so they didn't start to fight each other.

I do know that the Romanians captured Odessa almost completely by themselves . There was alot of cooperation in Army Group south as many of the troops there were allies.

Perhaps the more interesting would be what didn't happen. There was little or no cooperation between Germany and Japan. For example - why didn't Japan declare war against Russia? What about a load of U Boats going to Japan to operate against the Americans There didn't even seem to be technology transfer - I am sure the Japs would have liked the MG 42 and the Germans the long lance torpedo. I suppose it was difficult to communicate or move goods, but it does make you wonder.:2thumbsup:

Good topic! There was a kind of technology transfer. I think the Japs received the drawings of the FW190 and other planes.

I also think that on or two German raiders made it to Japan, too.

In total, there was little cooperation. Why? Germany and Japan did not share the same target. Each of them thought they could divert the attention of the US.

Japan did not invade the USSR, because they did not want to. They rather occupied the Western colonies and China. This made probably Germany loose the war.

Hitler did not want the Japanese to join the war. He was affraid that Germany had to fight and that Japan would take the cake.

One reason why he did not seriously intend to invade the UK was that in this case India would fall to the Japanese.

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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix

- The most successful cooperation between the axis was perhaps Rommels Afrika Korps consisting of both Germans and Italians. Again, Rommel moved in because the Italians failed.

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No going to say you are wrong or anything, but your point could be percieved as the Italians couldn't do anything. But the fact is that the majority of the Axis forces in Africa were Italians, and without them Rommel would never have stood a chance.
It is interesting to note that they fought very well after he assumed command (though he was still officially under the command of some Italian marshall). Clearly the Italians were not wholly inefficient on the battlefield. My guess it has to do with motivation, which they lacked when their commanders stuffed their heads with delicacies while they ate very bad stuff and a whole lot of other things. Things that Rommel at least didn't continue visibly.

Also, the Italians did have one branch that did quite well. Their intelligence services. They often supplied Germany with correct intelligence, which was then disregarded because it came from the incomptetent Italians. This wasn't done by the Abwehr though, they were professionals and worked on all they were supplied with (though they might not agree with the conclusions the Italians had made), but when presenting the info for the leaders... well you can guess what happened.

Japan did buy a Tiger E tank, but not surprisingly it never got shipped over.
A Japanese freighter filled with all kinds of goodies landed in Mogadishu at just the right time to have save the Italians, but I can't remember what happened afterwards...
A few Japanese and German submarines did visit each other. The Germans even having a few Type IX boats patrolling the Indian Ocean from Burma for a while.
And there is of course the infamous U-boat that was supposed to ship some 200+kg of Uranium to Japan as well as a lot of other interesting stuff. It surrendered at VE-day and the Uranium was used in the atomic bombs dropped in Japan. So you could argue the shipment arrived eventually, just not the way the Japanese had hoped.

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Originally Posted by King Kurt

Perhaps the more interesting would be what didn't happen. There was little or no cooperation between Germany and Japan. For example - why didn't Japan declare war against Russia?

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Japan didn't declare war against Russia because they had been trounced by Zhukov at Khalkin Gol in 1939 and didn't fancy more of the same.

Thanks guys. One more thing - who was the most effective ally/satellite state of Germany and what were the main military failures and successes of the Axis coalition?

This is one of the more interesting examples: the Japanese version of the Me 163 rocket interceptor, although it didn't make it into full production:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/ijna/j8m.htm

Here's a Wiki page on the technology transfers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanes..._collaboration

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Originally Posted by The Blind King of Bohemia

Thanks guys. One more thing - who was the most effective ally/satellite state of Germany and what were the main military failures and successes of the Axis coalition?

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BKB.Thats very hard question,but what i know Finland was the only ally of Germany that was neither occupied or had to surrender to Allies. But like i stated earlier after Finland made separate peace with Soviet Union.It in fact declared war to Germany and drove away German troops from Northern Finnland and Lappland.In Operation Barbarossa Finland conguered the areas it lost to Soviet Union at Winter war 30.11.1939- 12.3.1940+ The Aunus Peninsula. And lost pretty much those same parts to Soviet Union in armistice made september 19 1944 in Moscow.
Here is a deacent Wiki link about continuation war as we call it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War

Clearly Japan was the most powerful ally of Germany, although its contribution to Germany's fortunes was dubious at best. This was for at least three reasons:
(1) Most fatally, it drew Germany into war with America (Churchill on hearing Hitler's declaration of war on America: "Oh, so we won after all").
(2) As has already been said, Japan's failure to threaten Siberia allowed Russia to withdraw key units from there to the defence of Moscow - arguably as important a turning point as Stalingrad. (IIRC, Moscow knew Japan's - lack of - intentions from a spy in Japan).
(3) The US pursued a "Germany first" policy, limiting the diversionary effect of the Pacific war on the European theatre.
Nonetheless, Japan did inflict major defeats on the allies (e.g. Singapore was regarded as the worst defeat in British military history) and tied up large amounts of allied resources.

Italy was the other major ally of Germany, but was arguably a liability.
(1) It made no real contribution to the conquest of France, coming in late and getting bogged down in the southeast.
(2) Its humiliations in North Africa sucked Germany into a peripheral theatre, ultimately leading to the surrender of a large German army (IIRC a quarter of a million men) in Tunisia.
3) It got bogged down in Albania and forced the Germans into a Balkan campaign that delayed Barbarossa, perhaps fatally, and then at Crete dissuaded Germany from ever again using paratroops in large deployments.
The loss of Italian forces in 1943 did not appear to significantly hamper the Germans, who slowed Allied progress up Italy to a crawl.

Seriously, it is hard to think of good examples of the successes of Axis cooperation. I suppose Germany's European allies - Finns, Italians, Romanians, Hungarians etc - helped maintain the line in the vast Eastern front. And, as Kraxis has said, the Italians manned much of the North African front. But most Axis successes were almost purely German or Japanese achievements - even in the desert, it was two or three German divisions that made most of the breakthroughs.

As noted the Axis was not very good as a bunch of allies.

But in categories...

Strength: Japan
Intent: Hungary (Hothy seems to have been willing to invade China if Hitler had asked)
Intelligence: Italy
Resources: Rumania
Effective: Finland (but her intents as an ally was not very good)

So almost each of Germany's allies had their points, but combined they didn't do well.

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Originally Posted by King Kurt

Perhaps the more interesting would be what didn't happen. There was little or no cooperation between Germany and Japan. For example - why didn't Japan declare war against Russia? What about a load of U Boats going to Japan to operate against the Americans There didn't even seem to be technology transfer - I am sure the Japs would have liked the MG 42 and the Germans the long lance torpedo. I suppose it was difficult to communicate or move goods, but it does make you wonder.:2thumbsup:

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I heard about a Japanese sub (three times the size of a U-boat) which was caught carrying a shipment of gold on its way to Germany.

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

As noted the Axis was not very good as a bunch of allies.

But in categories...

Strength: Japan
Intent: Hungary (Hothy seems to have been willing to invade China if Hitler had asked)
Intelligence: Italy
Resources: Rumania
Effective: Finland (but her intents as an ally was not very good)

So almost each of Germany's allies had their points, but combined they didn't do well.

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Those damn Nazis took all of our petrol, from the Ploiesti oil fields. :embarassed: :wall: :shame: :no:

As for Odessa, true. I'm really proud that my grandfather played a crucial role in conquering Odessa. He was the only guy who volunteered to photograph the russian positions. And he did it 4 times, before the idiots realised they were being spied. :laugh4: :2thumbsup:

Also, my grandpa has the Iron Cross. :2thumbsup:

Erasing the past...

Spmetla,

I agree all of it. We were behind with the armament and such. But at least we fought with courage, but it didn't help us out.

But, in the communist period, Irak and Iran were supplied by Romania when they engaged in war! :laugh4:
Yeah, I know. Weird. :inquisitive:
But that is the truth....

Axis forces were not very good at working with each other.

Yes Germany helped Finland, but Finland didn't return the favor and support the siege of Leningrad. I wouldn't really say Finland helped the Germans, the Germans were hoping the Finnish would provide experienced winter troops for the siege, and the Germans didn't get it.

Italy simply wasn't ready for World War II, and her forces were poorly led. Rommel ended up showing the effectiveness of Italian troops that were not under Italian command, but this infuriated the Italian High Command, as he consistently refused orders from the Italian and failed to let them know of his offensive plans. This created a rift between the German and Italian High Commands.

Italy and Vichy France could have used their navies to challenge the English navy for the mediterran sea (spelling...), and of course cut supply lines ot the British in Africa, which was a key turning point in the war. But instead both fleets sat in ports and were decimated by the English navy. Many historians think that if either fleets had been competent, just one could have overwhelmed the English fleet in the mediterran sea for several reasons: #1 England lacked bases in the mediterran, as before the war it was agreed England would deal with the Atlantic and France the mediterran, #2 England fleets were being used for the naval blockade on Germany, and this of course required many ships, #3 England had to fend of the U-boats and escort convey's, and even a few hundred u-boats means that the British must use many times the ships in protecting each and every convey, #4 England had sent ships to fight against Japan. In other words, the English fleet was quite splintered and vunerable.

On the Eastern Front, cautious German war planners counted Romanian and Hungarian forces as only 1/2 to 2/3 as good as German troops, and there is only a few instances where they measured up to the Germans. For the most part their troops were not engaged in primary roles in key offensive operations and were generally used to protect supply lines and provide rearguard defense.

And of course Japan's refusal to break the non-aggression pact (based on their honor) with Russia (despite the fact Russia eventually broke it), doomed the Axis powers to defeat. Only by launching a powerful two front war on the Soviet Union could the Axis powers have won the war. Most of the Russian forces defending Siberia had been shipped back east, to defend Moscow, and there was little standing between the Japanese and the Urals. The Japanese did not fear the Russians, that is entirely inconsistent with their beliefs about superiority.

In fact, I wouldn't even consider Japan and Germany militarily allied, despite the fact they had a formal agreement, they had no cooperation on any military matters.

World War II didn't have to as one sided as it turned out to be. If you've ever played Allies and Axis the board game, you find that out very quickly, and it takes a lot to defeat a good Axis player.

With just these few examples, we see Germany's allies as very poor and undependable, and Japan's honor and belief in working alone, eventually doomed the Axis powers.

Couple comments for fallen851 post. I disagree on your opinion that the Japanese didnt attack Soviet Union based on honour. There was a brief war between Japan and Soviet Union before the World War II flamed on its fullest.The Soviet-Japanese War (July 1938 - December 1939).In the Manchukuo Campaign and later on Campaign in Korea. Soviet back then Lietenant-General Georgi K. Zhukov, later a Marshal of the USSR and Stalin's most renowned commander utterly beated the Japanese forces.Japanese was well aware what the Eastern and Northern propotion of Soviet Army was capable of.In my personal opinion these Siberian and Caucasian troops penformed in many cases lot better then Russian troops. Here is a good article about the War in detail:

http://www.angelfire.com/gundam/japa...altjap/sjw.htm

About the Finnish part on Siege of Leningrad i think its a very intresting question.That has been debated lot here in Finland. There were many reasons behind the decision that Finland didnt take actively part in the Siege,While her troops were in an artillery range from it in Autumn 1941. First we have to realize that the Finish army was never during the conflict under the command of German high command and it refused to do lots of things during Barbarossa.
Second The Finnish and German operation plans were agreed before hand.The plan was that Finnish army would take back the Karelian Isthmus and block the Leningrad from North West.Also Finland was supposed to take The Aunus peninsula(East Karelia) on the North side of Lake Ladoga in which they succeeded.In the mean while German Armygroup North was to Encircle Leningrad from Other directions and meet Finish troops in River Syväri(Svir) and by that complete the encirclation of Leningrad and also free half of the Finnish army to either Attack against Leningrad or To Attack North towards Arkangel and cut of the railroad connection between Moscow,Leningrad,and Soviet Unions most important harbour in Icy Sea Murmansk.
The Plan failed becouse the German Army Group North couldnt reach the Finnish forces on river Syväri.They got to Town of Tikhvin at November 8 1941.But couldnt advance any further.
The Finnish high Command insisted that the connection between Finnish and German troops had to be achieved before any new Operations could be started
And since Germans couldnt achieve that goal.Finish lined for in Defence.This has been all about the Military reasons why Finland didnt actively wanted to be a part of Siege of Leningrad.The political reasons behind that are a whole other matter.Here is a link to Wiki about the Siege:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leningrad

Here is a map of the General attacking directions.(Not very good one~;) ):

https://img482.imageshack.us/img482/...rossafr6vt.gif

i have read about a technological transfer near madagascar between german and japanese subs when the war was lost for germany.

and i don't think horthy was as pro-hitler as many other axis leaders. his passive agressive stance led him to be less genocidal towards hungarian jews than a lot of other heads of state under axis control. he was virulently anti-communist and most certainly a hungarian nationlist but i don't see him as a nazi stooge.

Yet he was the only leader who remained firmly in place, and continued to support Germany. Horthy wasn't so much in favour of nazism as he was a germanophile. And he personally liked Hitler a lot, partly because of his Austrian heritage but also becasue of the famous Hitler effect.

Stooge would be to put it too hard, as a stooge is a puppet, but he was a willing partner.

Still it didn't stop Horthy from:

1. Not supporting th invasion of Poland in 1939,

2. Changing the doctrine in late 1943 - from this moment Hungary hoped to wait for Allied invasion from the Balcans or Italy fighting Soviets as they could.

3. Watching allied unwillingness to attack the Balcans it was finally decided to sign a treaty with Soviet Union - which was done on 11th September 1944 if I am correct -the treaty meant that Hungary would declare war against the Third Reich shifting its army to the west and givin the Soviets about 250-300 leap towards Vienna. Higher commanders were informed and it was almost ready, but the Germans suspected it long before, kidnapped Horthy's son ( Skorzelny's unit made it as usual) and stopped the plan generally.
Only some difficulties followed it with the defeat of the forces in Transylvania for example, but generally Hitler grasped Hungary and it remained unwillingly the last ally of the Third Reich, now think what could happen it insted of the D-day in France something similar was made in the Balcans - Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia were equally waiting for something similar, but various factors made it impossible.
Particularly Roosevelt wanted to re-shape the world with few big hegemon states keeping peace including 'his good friend Uncle Joe' who was given Eastern Europe - it was like promoting pedophile for the head of kindergarten - insane ! Sometimes stupidity of some world leaders never stops amazing me.:no: :book:

Regards Cegorach :2thumbsup:

The main thing is that, the allies supported each other with supplies for the most part of the war. Finally, they joined ranks together to fight against the Germans. I think the biggest thing was the transfering of supplies. Just my opinion though...