Mongol army needs more unit variety.

And larger numbers. Especially is you start in Early, by 1230 the continent is usually developed to the point that Mongol invasion falls flat on its nose within 30 years at the most. And that's *without* player's interference.

Thus, I say that if you begin the game in 1087, Mongols should have 3 times as many troops, and the Khan should arrive with at least two mature heirs from the get-go.

As for the troop roster, they are begging for heavy infantry. As they stand right now, they are just a fodder for the Arbalest/Halberd combo. Bridge or no bridge, they still die in droves. I say, Mongols need a toned down version of JHI, maybe something similar to Billmen or Swiss Halbs. Fast on their feet and not too heavily armored. At least, this way they'll have something to throw against the Arbalest line (since MHC will get mauled by anticav).

Anyhow, that's my opinion.

Fair enough, (and I have also complained to people about how limited Mongol troops are) but the fact is they never fielded anything like this at all, even if you allow them conscipted Chinese and Korean troops (which they only used in eastern theatres). Mongols only really fielded foot troops when they ran out of horses or used civilians to soak up arrow fire, and I don't know about allowing them naptha throwers either (although they did get quite inventive with explosives once they'd invaded China). I know army balance is important, but so is historical accuracy (to an extent, and this would be stretching it beyond what I think is reasonable for a historical game).
I think their command abilities and morale should be higher instead. They turn up with 2-3 star generals most times, which is rubbish. They won by tactics and ferocity, not technological achievement.

I agree totally with you that there aren't enough of them in the initial Horde, should be twice as many. One they arrive they can start fielding stuff from captured territories perhaps.

I always think the Horde should get loads of money when it arrives as well, and money every turn after that for a while. Come to think of it, rebels should as well, then they might actually build up some infrastructure!

AFAIK, Mongol army who invaded Europe were only cavalry, so it would be nice Golden Horden has bigger variety of cavalry troops. They have only MHC and MHA, and Steppe cavalry which can be trained in steppe provinces.
I agree Golden Horde invades with too little (twice as more should be good) troops, I've never seen them (in game) holding Hungary and Silesia (like they historically did). Their units should also tire slower on the battlefield, and, like matteus said, their generals should have more command stars.

Ironically, I bothered to go and check some sources. As you say, KT, the initial invasion was entirely cavalry stuff, but later incarnations of the Golden Horde (from about 1251) actually used foot archers called Bessermeni (local Muslim town militias) and had Armenian archers, Siberian tribesmen, and even Italian mercenary crossbowmen called 'Fryazei' in their armies.
I suppose therefore that the most accurate compromise would be an initial Horde invasion of entirely cavalry (and siege weapons, I guess), then later they get reinforcements of mixed cavalry and foot...

Not more variety so much as more starting money. The horde even if it does extremely well will go into debt very quickly. It needs to be able to retrain troops as well as build on land.

I found the Horde to have a little more variety in XL. They brought units of Korean spearmen as well as Mongol Foot Warriors - tough archers/swordsmen.

I agree that they should have much higher-rated generals and high morale. However, I know that many people find the endless battles a bit of a chore, and having very high morale for the Mongols would make this worse.

Maybe high valour as well, so the 'endless' and big number battles wouldn't last long - the player would always lose until the numbers fell away? :dizzy2:

Just give them more money in the startpos(?) file. It should work.

You could always just use large amounts of mercs throw them at the enemy. There's usually tons of them in Eurasia. They have a good flavor.

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Originally Posted by Budwise

Not more variety so much as more starting money. The horde even if it does extremely well will go into debt very quickly. It needs to be able to retrain troops as well as build on land.

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Indeed. No matter how many troops they have, the Horde runs out of impetues fast. This is partly because they don't have money, partly because the A.I. tries to control the unruly (wrong religion!) and worthless steppe provinces and partly because they cannot construct anything (having destroyed the infrastructure on their way in). I guess the Horde just isn't cut out to be represented like a traditional faction. BI's Horde feature sounds far better suited to this kind of warfare.

Giving the more starting money doesn't help much: the A.I. just blows it all and goes broke all the same. I guess the best way would be to give them a high-priority, fast-to-construct building that provided them with a good income and pacified their provinces. This way the Horde could remain concentrated and prevents bankrupcy.

I'll add a few cents here. When the mongols rolled into Poland and Hungary in 1241 they had one of the better tactical generals of his day in Subutai. I cant argue with the military composition of the mongol army as represented in MTW because of game balance, however the mongols should have better generals.

Subutai was a brilliant commander, on the same level (if not higher given his conquests) then any western or muslim counterpart. The only way to represent this advantage to the mongols is to have more quality commanders, or one uber commander. The mongol military system wasnt based on class (like the western armies of the day) it was based on ability.

At present in MTW you have the Khan at 4 stars, which is fine, but he had plenty of expirenced capable commanders that had been trained in china and asia minor for years.

Creating more capable commanders will help with force composition as well, as mentioned earlier, the mongols didnt go into Poland with many koreans or chinese footmen (save for engineer crews)

If you get the Gnome editor you can play with the unit stats a bit. If you want to make the mongols longer lasting I'd reccomend making their units have lower construction costs and especially lower support costs. You could also slighty up there honour/valour and maybe some other factors like chage bonus. That would simulate having better generals as a general gives valour/honour for his stars. That will give them an edge in auto calc battles and on the field of battle when they face you.

It wouldn't be too hard to actually make them overpowering so perhaps you would first want to act with moderation.

If you ask me, I think the main reason the Mongol invasion fizzles so quickly is because of the game's absurd strategic AI (at least when it comes to controlling the Mongols). They always seem to keep the great bulk of their troops in one backwater province, doing nothing useful. When they attack they usually only send small numbers of men. Since they don't even leave enough troops in captured provinces to maintain loyalty, they are constantly plagued with rebellions which further sap their numbers. I've seen them become entirely pacifist very quickly after invading, though they still have huge armies left.

Another problem, and one I can't see any way around, is that they can't use authentic Mongol tactics on the battlefield. Such tactics include:

1. IIRC, the Mongols could spread out over a wide area, then suddenly converge at a point, achieving local superiority in numbers and smashing a key point on the enemy's line. This way they could rout larger, less mobile armies. This won't work in MTW for the simple reason that battlefields have boundaries. If you set up at the back of the map, the Mongols can't properly spread out and surround you - you force them to come at your front.

2. The feigned retreat was a big part of Mongol tactics, and worked quite frequently. While the AI does try it sometimes, it never works, because c'mon, we players are smarter than that.

I can think of a couple of possible ways to make the Mongols stronger and keep some semblance of historical accuracy. Simply increasing their numbers is a fudge - they were actually often outnumbered. Similarly, giving them heavy infantry would be a hack. I would suggest:

1. Improving their strategic AI. As I already said, this would do a lot by itself. They should go for conquest and not just raids.

2. Increase the effectiveness of their horse archer's arrows. This might give them more of a chance against the arbalest/halberd combo. If they could actually shoot down some of the heavily armoured halberds and effectively duel with the arbalests, they'd have more of a chance.

3. Make them inspire fear in enemy troops (more so than other factions). After all, fear played a large enough role in their conquests - their reputation went ahead of them and demoralized the enemy before the battle.

4. Perhaps make them come from the East in several waves instead of all at once. It's not realistic to have them training troops in conquered provinces anyway - at least not until they've ruled them for a while. However, once they've carved out a nice chunk of territory, they should be able to settle down a bit and behave more like a real civilization - developing their economy, constructing buildings, training troops, engaging in diplomacy, etc. They really were quite capable administrators.

Good post Kommodus

As horses fear camels you could make every non-mongol unit fear mongol units. It's quite possible.