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Let's pretend you were Hitler! The one of 1940. You became dictator in Germany, you occupied Austria, CSR, Poland, Denmark, Norway, the BENELUX. France is defeated. You deleted the Versaille treaty, you are the idol of your people and you control most of Europe. The only enemy left is Britain. On the long run you have to take care about the US, too. ANd Russia, of course. This is your mission.
At the top of your power, what would you have done?
hmmm
1)Make sure the western garrisons are not too large
2)Make sure the Balkans stay neutral.
3)Put more air assets into taking malta. And send in paras of course.
4)Forget about the Battle of Britain.
5)Scratch all those crazy plans about the Jews.
6) Expand the armored forces
7)push for a change in the layout of the motorized forces. Place the emphasis on whole motorized divisions. None of this spread the cars out.
8)stock up on winter clothings.
9)put more effort into intelligence
10)dow russia a month early, if possible(Bug was flooded around this time)
More later maybe.
Of course the very first thing I would NOT have done, before all this happened, was persecute the Jewish people. The loss of manpower, knowledge etc was sorely felt in Germany. Experts such as Albert Einstein who fled the country would have been a valued asset to my war machine. As well as this, just being the idol of your own country isn’t enough to hold an Empire together – there has to be some “candy” on the table, some benefit that your rule gives the normal people of the countries you capture, be it social, political or financial…..
All that said, and working from the position given:
Garrisons in France would be lowered and the Vichie (sp) government given more power and its native para-military arm expanded – in effect France will be a Protectorate. (Oooppsss – Iraq anyone!)
This negates much of the British objections to the occupation, takes away the leverage it has against the German regime – France is self governing, but benefiting from strong links to Germany.
Serious and public announcements for Peace between Britain and Germany will be made. Britain would always be difficult to deal with but without the “moral high ground” she looses much of her potency, and is certainly in no position to strike militarily against mainland Europe.
The peace is kept with the Soviet Union. Stalins government is a dictatorship just as evil and nasty as my own (historically) – there is no indication that Stalin planned an offensive against Germany, he, like others was preparing for invasion NOT conquest. Borders will be re-enforced but oil MUST continue to flow from the Soviet Union into Germany and occupied Europe – this is beneficial to Stalin, he’d keep that peace as it guarantees his own position. However, a covert war of subversion would be started – German money would fund anti-Communist factions, the USSR would start to fragment much as it has done in the latter quarter of the 20th Century, it could not and still cannot, feed its own population.
Eventually, such “factions” and semi-nations would become indentured to Germany as Stalin continues his purges and persecutions. Germany would be seen as saviours, these areas would become Protectorates also.
A serious review of our policies towards Japan would be made. Association with them, and alliance with them, makes Germany enemies with the USA. Such a position initially is unacceptable – until Europe is fully amalgamated into a Greater Europe, organised and able to match the USA in production and output.
In place of a North African campaign the focus would be on South Africa. Nearer to the richer (mineral wealth wise) areas of Africa than the North and also a friendly nation to Germany from the onset. North Africa would be maintained by Italy, with indirect support. If they started loosing there – that’s their problem….if they lost their foot hold completely then Germany would have to directly intervene. However, by this time (circa 1943) – by my plan – there should be peace with Britain at least, so there would be little or no conflict in this zone. The conflict would be by moving up Africa from the South and not South from the North.
Italy started the war in North Africa, it should not have been Germanys war.
Militarily –
Increased investment in the Navy, initially in Submarines (U-Boats) to about double the allocation that actually occurred. Surface ships take longer to build, more men are needed to run and maintain them and they are much bigger and easier targets than Subs, subs can maintain and increase the strangle-hold on Britain as well as escort my own surface trade ships.
There would be no obsession with “Super weapons”. Medium tanks such as the Panther would be focused on but Tiger I’s would also be used extensively (there would be no development beyond the Tiger I if it caused funds to be drained from the lower level of tank development and manufacture). Panthers/Panzers & Tigers were beating the Russian tank corps hands down – I see no reason why there just shouldn’t be more of the same.
More specialist troop formations; use of native armed forces in the Protectorates – supported financially and arms wise by Germany – would bolster the excellent and highly professional German army (sort of WRE / ERE style, lower grade troops defend the Empire first whilst the more mobile, more highly trained, German army positions to counter the threats).
Air technology would be advanced but also no major focus on “Super weapons” – a long range bomber programme would certainly be started, and quite early.
Of course, spies etc would keep close monitor of the Soviet Unions military advances. It would be important to remain, technologically, a stage higher than them and, as we haven’t expelled/exterminated the Jewish population this would be a lot easier.
There would be no plans to attack Britain or the USA – these nations are separated from Europe by Sea. No contact eventually leads to peace, the US is too greater an economic powerhouse to combat. If war was to come against these two it would be instigated by them not Germany. The concentrated efforts would be to subvert and dismantle the Soviet Union, eventually occupying and diverting its efforts towards a unified Europe.
Continue modernizing the Armed Forces
Continue technological development
Put german economy on wartime footing (wasn't at this in 1940) and start pumping out Pz IIIs w/ 50mm guns and lots of fighters and U VIIs and U IXs
Stop the stupid holocaust thing, waste of resources and pools too many people into gaurding them
Maintain air superiority over seas around england, step up bombing convoys and uboat attacks, no Battle of Britain though just routine night bombing of airfields and factories when conditions favorable, continue airdrop mining and uboat mining of major british sea lanes
save surface fleet for defense of germany, norway, and french coast line and do surface convoy raiding in larger numbers 3 to 5 heavies not 1 to 2
Step up intel networds and technology
Change code for all armed forces at periodic intervals
Make the mediterrean the priority, lots of armor to kick the brits out of malta, north africa along with syria, jordan and iraq, put pressure on turks or iranians to get military access, put pressure on vichy france and use it as platform to takeover gibraltor (or with support from franco)
Delay barbarrossa by a year or two but start out in a better time of year and with large forces from a new front (iran/turkey). Give far more miltary support to finland much ealier so that the lenigrad can be taken or cut off from moscow much earlier
during barbarrossa reduce garrisoning needs and partisans by "liberating" baltic states, georgia, and ukraine
also ill leave the war to the generals and try to support them instead of interfere
tell japanese not to start war with americans until brits have given up or been conquered, send advisors and technology, along with mass production experts to help step up japanese war effort against china and build up larger armored forces
Get Albert Speer to be minister of Arms Production right away! Don't forget him.
A) Stockpile huge masses of resources for an invasion of Britain. Make a show of my power and hope they surrender. If they don't, I'd wait for a long time until I had the manpower, an effective fighter plane to escort my bombers, and a huge navy.
B) Delay entry into Russia. If I can keep the pact with them going, I'd prefer that.
C) Eliminate the Holocaust. Some of those Jews might fight for me. Labour camps are something else. However, criminals and POWS will be sent to work there, not "undesirables".
D) Pump massive resources into the development of the armed forces.
E) After Britain is defeated/surrenders/signs a peace treaty, mass my forces within easy distance of the Russian border. Take Iceland if possible. Attempt to establish bases in Greenland to threaten a move into North America. If Britain is out through armistice, Canada will be as well. There's another rival eliminated.
I think i have concentrated on my art more and left the building of evil empires to others.~;)
PARTY! :party: ~:cheers:Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
Seriously, I'd make sure to keep other potential enemies at bay (diplomatically) and deal with each enemy individually.
Russia or Britain, not both.
I would start from Malta and then Africa. If Africa was mine, I would capture Iran, Iraq and Siria and establish there protectorates. Then I would force Turkey to allow on oil transports during it's territory. With oil, I would do everything.
the first thing i would do if i was germany would be
1) wait 10 years.
during that time, take the resources that are currently going to the land forces and redirect them towards building up my naval and airforce to achieve complete strategic superiority over the british theatre, along with an amphibous assault force 250,000-500,000 strong. the rest of the land army will be relegated to defense in depth.
2) once britain is overrun, scuttlle or seriously downgrade the fleet and redirect the land army back into an elite offensive machine and push east.
Get Franco on board then capture Gibraltar .
Get rid of Mussolini and reorganise the Italian general staff .
Id try harder to get into art school
I'm still making my plans be patient
Take one for the team and do a Red Dwarf John F Kennedy self assassination... suicide for the greater good. :juggle2:
I agree with Papewaio :inquisitive:
:laugh4:Quote:
Id try harder to get into art school
As was said about funding anti-communist parties in Russia, I'd invest in authoritarian movements abroad to a greater degree than Hitler did and try to stay on the US's good side.. and assassinate that goddarn Churchill fella.
I think the greatest service he could do for Germany and the world, was what Pape suggests. ASAP too.
Pappy has the best call on this.
By the juncture of history described in the original post, Hitler had already firmly enlisted with the "dark side."
Racial restrictions against Jews, Kristelnacht, the euthanization of mental "defectives," the Night of the Long Knives, etc. all precede this point in history. To put yourself in Hitler's shoes at this time is NOT the same as standing in Caesar's shoes on the bank of the Rubicon or Napoleon's in March of 1812 or Washington's during that long, hot summer in Philadelphia. Hitler was either mad, or evil, or possibly both.
What you are really asking, I think, is:
What would you do if you were the new commander of Germany following the July Plot of 1940 that had just taken out Hitler, Goebbels, Himmler, Heydrich, & Hess (Side note, why do so many Nazi last names start with G & H?:stupido2: ) and placed power in the hands of your military junta?
The lessons of history lend a lot of advice on a better set of military decisions, but would any other leader have had Hitler's political will to carry them out?
No!
What would you do if you were Hitler?
Some things are unchangeable:
1) A.H. has already started to suppress the Jews. He will go on this way. Maybe faster or slower. The Holocaust was not something to win the war; it was an independant strategic goal. Insane, but real!
2) A.H. has to invade Russia. To defeat Communism and to conquer new lands. You can do it sooner or later. This is another strategic goal. Unchangeable.
3) A.H. will never pass the test for the art school. Please try to give realistic answers. He will not commit suicide. He believes that he is the chosen one!
By the way: Most of yourproposals are incoharent and not substantial. Most of you would have lost the war sooner than he did. Is this all I can get from the world greatest military-historical organisation? :no:
Answering to the first post. I would tre to make peace at leat on one war-front.
I'd point a gun at my head and pull the trigger.
:shame:
I assume you mean: "if you were Hitler in all aspects except that you'd have switched his military knowledge with your own, how would you have changed the military decisions?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
If that was the question my answer is that I would have first in some sneaky way have tried to take over the Vichy fleet without having it scuttled. Then I would have assisted the Italians in crushing the British fleet in the Mediterranean (taking Malta and Gibraltar among other things), and the British ground troops in North Africa, thus gaining control over much oil and enabling more effective destruction of British air and sea forces in the Mediterranean, forcing them to retreat much of their fleet to Britain, but only assist the Italians on the ground so that they'd only just be able to win the war, and in return require them to serve under German command in Europe, and help out with an invasion of Britain. Then I would invade Britain, take over or force scuttling of the British fleet. Keeping some Italian troops to do most garrison duty in France and Britain, I'd then prepare to invade the USSR, but preferably that shouldn't be done until France and England had calmed down, maybe even removing some garrisons and using diplomatical measures and/or puppet government or similar system to avoid too heavy resistance activity.
But if the question is the other I would have done pretty much what the others above said... :skull:
Finally a man with a strategy. Legio, you would be a good dictator ~;)
I think you have some weak points in your strategy:
1) You have to rely that the SU keep passive. I think it is a bit risky. Would Stalin allow the Germans to dominate Europe?
2) You rely a lot on the Italians. Your invasion in the Med is a bit like what happaned actually: The German bombers and STUKAs gave the RN a hard time (Crete). However, the Germans had no navy in the Med and the Italians did not want to fight once the RN gave them a bloody nose. And regarding Gibralta: Hitler thought about advancing through Spain. However he did not because then he would have had to supply and protect Spain.
3) I do not understand how you want to manage the landing in Britain. How could you beat the RN and the RAF?
4) If you wouod control Africa I guess the US would join the game.
Golden rule 1: under no circumstances attack Russia until Britain is out of the war. Golden rule 2: do not declare war on the USA. EverQuote:
2) A.H. has to invade Russia. To defeat Communism and to conquer new lands. You can do it sooner or later. This is another strategic goal. Unchangeable.
Everything else is detail. For what its worth, keep the pressure on the UK with U boats, wait until the UK is upset because the US is all busy with her own concerns in the Pacific, not to mention hard pressed in the far east herself, then in, say, the end of 1942 offer the UK an armistice. Maybe even offer to withdraw forces from Northern France, Benelux and Norway (on the understanding that there would be Quisling governments and plenty of "security advisors" still in those countries, natch). The UK people might go for it. Without America in the war they have no chance of invading the continent after all, and with a properly resourced afrika corps I could have kicked them out of the middle east, by then to have Egypt and Iraq to offer to hand back as bargaining chips. Well, I might keep Iraq, the oil might be handy. Plus a quick drive through Iran and there I am in southern russia.
Then launch Barbarossa on May Day 1943 (ironic or what)
Ok, since I know that I will have a war with the SU soon, I would get the industry up and running, best done by employing Albert Speer as minister of Armaments. That should lead to more streamlined production.
I would cut the research on the big rockets and transfer the resources to the missile research (AA, AT and Anti Ship). The research would be similar enough that it could draw a lot on the knowledge gained for the big rockets. In HOI2 terms you would have the blueprints.
Would halt production of surface ships besides the two battleships (basically finished) and escorts. Resources sent to production of U-Boats.
I would get at least a limited force of long range strategic bombers. These would become vital in the future war with the SU (if you have read the memoires of Speer you will know why).
I would pursue a strategy of active engagements. Meaning where ever the British would be I would engage them. Just not in their home (fightersweeps could be done though and of course attacking Channel convoys).
Student would land in Malta before it got too fortified. Heavy losses likely, but worth it.
Rommel would be sent to Africa right away, first as a friendly allied force, later when the Italian command breaks down as commander. Since I would be pursuing a more active engagement he would be having more German troops under him. And with Malta out of the way he wouldn't be as pressured about logistics.
Would urge Mussolini to stay clear of further expansions in the Balkans (Albania should be enough). If he couldn't I would send some Alpenjägers to help out, but no invasion of Yugoslavia for instance.
Would put more emphasis on the Fokke-Wulf 190 (Hitler held it back because he didn't like radial engines on fighters).
Would transfer jet research to Speer for direct control.
Would begin to dismantle the entire system of redundant building and research (Hitler forced various groups to fight for resources while in fact going for te same objective, effectively slowing down both, and eventually giving Germany two extremely similar results that would hamper the industry). Concentrated effort, rather than individual effort!
Institute a proper night fighter program, use Destroyer forces for this. They have already shown themselves to be incapable of engaging single engine fighters.
Strong diplomatic effort with Turkey. At least this should produce some advantageous oil transfers, at best she would join in getting some of the Ottoman lands back (and in the future being a nice jumpoff for the war against the SU).
Be friendly with Japan, but never just declaring war against the USA. That would be their own little game, not mine. But before that, purchacing the plans for their Long Lance torpedo for some infantry tech could perhaps be done. Should be very helpful for the U-Boats (40km range, superior warhead and great speed would make it virtually impossible for escorts to strike back initially).
Put the Jewish Question on hold until I have gotten what I want, the war has first priority. Western occupied countries to be treated nicely, no obvious pulling out resources. Encourage trade with them. Reason: The populations are to understand that the occupation is temporary and only in place because of strategic concerns, not for conquest purposes.
Of course dissent can't be killed, but this way it mgith take longer before it pops up (43 being the year of expansion for most resistances).
When treated well by civilians in the east, the 'liberator' instance, forces are to act like that. Until victory there won't be any inferior race per se.
Recruitment among the liberated peoples should be encouraged for security of the rear against roaming Soviet forces and partisans. Locals will be able to perform better in this.
Invasion of Russia to be targeting Smolensk and Caucasus. Leningrad and Moscow has to wait. Secure friendlies (Ukranians and Balts in particular) and resources, then cut the political system.
*blushes* :embarassed: j/kQuote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
1) Smaller garrisons in France etc. in the first phase allow for more troops defensively positioned to the east. Only during two quick strikes are they unavailable for defending the eastern frontline.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
2) Not rely, but if possible make them do something in return for the help they're given. Part 1 of the strategy is infantry and armor reinforcement to North Africa and East Africa, possibly also a better commander for the Italians. Second part is invasion of Malta. After that the British hold nothing but Gibraltar in the Mediterranean, from which they could be removed with some diplomatic pressure on Franco. If not, it wouldn't be too much of a problem.
3) Eliminating one front is essential to avoid two-front war. Plus Britain is in a way the weaker part compared to USSR - once the channel can be crossed they would have no chance against, say, 15 German divisions. Which means some 30-40 divisions could be prepared for the invasion. Historically the Luftwaffe achieved a pretty strong air superiority in southern Britain, before they went over to bombing London they had disabled many British key airfields. Stopping about there, and managing to insert enough German land troops, it would be easy to deal with the rest of RAF. As for the British fleet, it could maybe be possible to heavily cover the crossing forces with both planes and sea mines. Using one third of Luftwaffe for covering the ships crossing the sea, and one third to then carry out missions in southern Britain would most likely have worked. Maybe using paratroopers and submarine inserted key SS division units in some areas (perhaps pulling a few strings to quickly build around 5-10 extra large transport submarines for this purpose during half of 1940 and the beginning of 1941). If parts of the Vichy fleet had been possible to take it would have been even easier to cross the channel. Historically Germany could occupy the channel islands so I don't think it would have been impossible to carry out a massive landing in Britain, only problem would be that the actual transporting phase would see larger losses than seen in any of the earlier operations, and the lack of naval control would make sending supplies to the front in Britain difficult. Still, once 10 or more divisions had landed safely I think Britain would have been almost chanceless in the ensuing land war.
4) Quite possible, but if North Africa is invaded in 1940, and Britain is invaded in 1940 or early 1941, the declaration of war wouldn't come too much earlier than it historically did. Plus would USA really want to declare war? They didn't declare war until attacked, and it was even then with some hesitation. If USA did join the war earlier, and Britain was invaded in (at the latest) early 1941, it would however be impossible for USA to achieve anything at all except carrying out a few sorties with their fleet units, but Luftwaffe and a reinforced German navy would stop them effectively. If Britain was successfully invaded it would maybe even allow capture of parts of RN - the RN ships would have to choose between going to port and surrender, scuttle in port, or attempt to flee to USA or some colony. After this building up industry and similar would allow an invasion of USSR. If USSR would attack first, it could have some interesting consequences. I think they'd think twice about attacking, after their failures in the Finnish winter war, and given the successful invasion of France and Britain.
The main weakness I see in my plan is that USSR must be fought. USSR had the only land army capable of matching the German land army at the time.
Hitler did end up commiting suicide. And being at the height of his power and dying like a Hollywood starlet ... would have got a false glow of 'what if'. Instead Hitler continued with his mad vengence against those whom were different and the fact that the German people of the time followed him has left a stain agianst them... that if poetic justice really exists should last as long as the 3rd Reich attempted to... So I have no problem that it takes another 940 years from now for the German people to lose the Stigma of creating the Nazi nation that introduced Mass Killing to Mass Production techniques.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
=][=
Better question for those of us who find Hitler distasteful:
"What if you could possess Hitler. You can not kill him or tramuatise him to the point that he kills himself. You can reverse any of his political decisions and change his future ones. So you can stop the Holocaust, the wiping out of the Gypsies and the attacks on the mentally ill but you cannot stop what had gone on before that time. And like a lawyer you have to do the best for your clients future."
Ok stabilse his festering mind. Go and get a health checkup. If still fertile, have him marry his mistress now! With the idea to have children as soon as possible. If not possible have him change his heart, and stop the crusade against people whom are different... adopt children of the very people he has destroyed.
I would instead of focusing on transporting people to ghettos. Make my primary focus on supplying my troops. I would minimise my war with Britain. Avoid sending in troops to North Africa... if anything this is where a potential alliance with Turkey could pay off dividends.
Focus on fighting SU and like China is talking to North Korea nowadways... I would be using my diplomats as go betweens for Japan and USA. I would get Japan to back down a little while getting the US to lift trade sanctions, while giving the US enough incentive to not want to go to war against either Axis power.
I would also do more to make Vichy more of a partner then a puppet... all the more to pacify France.
After making peace with Britain I would focus on Russia, hopefully now though it will be a two front war... Except the Soviets are fighting on two fronts, with the Japanese Fleet dominating the north pacific and their marines helping to stop the mongolian troops from leaving the Far East.
Without the British Bombing Campaign on Factories, more troops can hit the Soviets, with more supplies and more transport (now that I'm not focusing on moving non-military personel to camps)... I can hit the Soviets harder then ever. With Turkey seeing the tide going towards Germany, a dividing up the the southern Soviet oil fields becomes a lot easier as Turkey attacks from the South while Germany attacks from the west. All the time the Japanese are grinding through the east of the Soviet Union.
If I was Hitler, I`d make sure to be the man with the most concubines in history.
I`d not invaded Sovjet until "time was ready"; keeping the "no-attack" treaty already signed. I`d focused on the development of nuclear technology much more than Hitler already did, in order to silence Britain. Until then, I`d spread German culture(ala Civ style), and somehow win the people's confidence in the occupied countries..
Regardless of what Hitler wanted to do with Europe and North Africa, the Soviet Union had similar designs of their own to take over, had Hitler not invaded in 41', Germany might have been on the defensive by 43'.
Dissolve any ties with Japan. Send money and resources to the wealthy and influential industrialists and bankers in America. Also back American politicians who valued helping Germany fight communism over preserving the state of Britain. Hell, even fund a Nazi party in America, and make it THE party those who hate communism join. Do everything possible to keep America neutral, and maybe even get them to become an ally.
Without the US, Britain could be defeated in North Africa and their threat negated in Europe. (An invasion wouldnt even be necessary.) Also, Russia would be even weaker without American supplies, and the much weakened british threat would have meant a one-front war for Germany.
1940s America was very susceptible to the Nazi message, if played to its strong points. I could easily see an anti-communist, anti-jewish, white supremest, nationalistic message playing very well to a large part of the American public if it was packaged right.