Expert Mode easier than Hard?

Now, I must confess that I never played on Hard mode. However, comparing Expert mode to Normal, I notice that the +4 morale bonus the A.I. gets is actually a double edged sword.

On one hand, A.I. units are difficult to rout, but on the other hand, A.I. seems to fight relentlessly even after their core troops have been crushed. A.I. keeps sending its fresh re-enforcements into the meat grinder even when the battle is hopelessly lost.

If only that +4 morale bonus worked on the strategic map, but no, the A.I. is still a wuss there.

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If only that +4 morale bonus worked on the strategic map, but no, the A.I. is still a wuss there.

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You are right about that RVG.

Hmm, i must agree with above posts, but i observed, that A.I. is quite smarter than in normal.

I played HRE(again:oops: ) and my crusading army was attacked by three full stacks of egyptian soldiers. And they attacked in waves. They had superior general(6 stars in command if my memory is good, and few morale boosting virtues...horrible). I thought, that he will be in the first line of attack, and he actualy was....but not in my sight when his first line(composed of infantry crap) impacted into my lines. After very long and hard fight, my line beated off his first line, but they were to tired to search and destroy that enemy commander. And the second wave came to me and again, bloody and hard fight. My army was anihilated by the third wave, and the only my commander(having about 15-18 valour) and several feudal men at arms(with valour near 10) withdrawed from battle. On my side, not a single unit broke, they were all anihilated. And on muslem side was similar. They losses in each unit reached 70%-100% and fleeing units was rare sight.

I never seen that before, cos A.I. usualy not use superior numbers to his advantage.....he rather picks strongest units of infantry in the first wave, and general is near(as i may write from that day) always is with the first wave.

Maybe the general just retreated from battle. Since the 2.01 patch, generals tend to leave the battlemap if they are part of a heavily depleted unit.

It depends on how good you are with the tacticals. If you're good with them then of course, you'll gain position on the AI every time. I'm one of the guys that can't do that. If I played on expert, I'd simply autoresolve every single battle. I dunno if that'd actually be harder since I botch so many tacticals, but I imagine it would. :p

The expert level is more difficult, and the tactics seem slightly better. As to the AI building better units, yes and no. The stats are better on the units the AI fields, though of course the AI doesn't seem to take advantage of all the tech advntages it might have (or could have).

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Originally Posted by cutepuppy

Maybe the general just retreated from battle. Since the 2.01 patch, generals tend to leave the battlemap if they are part of a heavily depleted unit.

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If general leaves the battlefield it is always message about enemy general running away. And he had full unit of ghulam bodyguards, and he actualy camped near own point of reinforcements. He entered to the melee with the third wave of the troops, and then, he take losses(i killed about half of his unit, but the enemy scoundrel survived, and was able to kill lots of my troopers...)

A.I. tactics on expert is far more better than in hard. Furthermore, computer seems to cheat on economy. cos raising and upkeeping that amount of troops, and in addition, normal structure build up is impossible for only 4000 florins. So i dont think, that hard level is harder than expert.

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Originally Posted by Asmodai

If general leaves the battlefield it is always message about enemy general running away. And he had full unit of ghulam bodyguards, and he actualy camped near own point of reinforcements. He entered to the melee with the third wave of the troops, and then, he take losses(i killed about half of his unit, but the enemy scoundrel survived, and was able to kill lots of my troopers...)

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If the enemy general runs away you receive a message that the general is running away. If he withdraws from battle you see him withdrawing from battle as your mounted X-bows try in vain to catch up (that is, if you're me).

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

If the enemy general runs away you receive a message that the general is running away. If he withdraws from battle you see him withdrawing from battle as your mounted X-bows try in vain to catch up (that is, if you're me).

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Yes, i agree but A.I only withdraws any unit if the whole army withdraws, so i will have message, that they are leaving the field, so i always be warned somehow that general leaving the battlefield.

And morale of units in first to third wave was extremely high, as well as their fighting capabilities, so i think, that command radius(range from the general where his stars provide additional bonuses) may be extended on Expert. I`m not sure about that, but i`m still trying to understand that battle mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Asmodai

Yes, i agree but A.I only withdraws any unit if the whole army withdraws, so i will have message, that they are leaving the field, so i always be warned somehow that general leaving the battlefield.

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No, this isn't always so - at least since the VI expansion. When a general's bodyguard unit becomes depleted, there's a chance for an AI "voluntary withdrawal". There's no notice or warning given in this case, IIRC.

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Originally Posted by rvg

Now, I must confess that I never played on Hard mode. However, comparing Expert mode to Normal, I notice that the +4 morale bonus the A.I. gets is actually a double edged sword.

On one hand, A.I. units are difficult to rout, but on the other hand, A.I. seems to fight relentlessly even after their core troops have been crushed. A.I. keeps sending its fresh re-enforcements into the meat grinder even when the battle is hopelessly lost.

If only that +4 morale bonus worked on the strategic map, but no, the A.I. is still a wuss there.

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Great points and discussion.

The once cavaet to the meat grinder scenario is that the AI is still attacking and chances are your losses will be greater then they would have if the AI simply retreated. Thats definately battle specific but the chances of taking more losses to your troops make it harder. Replacement costs, retraining, or loss of elite troops is all part of the consideration.

I concede its a small part, but a relentless attacking AI means you have to have adequate troops to deal with them. I am not ashamed to say that on expert level there have been times when I havent fielded enough melee troops and have had to use archers to mop up.

Was it harder? Tactically not really but the expense of the battle was greater to my nation. Additionally I have found that I have to bring a larger force to bare against the +4 morale bonus which, as stated increases the cost of the battle for me.

I don't think the AI cheats on the economy in the campaign map or economy on expert. I've played expert and hard never noticed any campaign map differences. Frankly, the strategic AI is idiotic no matter what difficulty you set it to. The only difficulty I find in Expert is that I'll lose 80% of my tactical battles, which basically means I'll press auto-resolve on most of them and still win. It's not really that much more difficulty, just a lot less fun.

EDIT: Of course, on expert, rebellions are more serious business than they usually are on hard, but on the other hand, it affects everyone, and the player tends to be smarter on loyalty management anyway.

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Originally Posted by Maloncanth

I don't think the AI cheats on the economy in the campaign map or economy on expert. I've played expert and hard never noticed any campaign map differences. Frankly, the strategic AI is idiotic no matter what difficulty you set it to. The only difficulty I find in Expert is that I'll lose 80% of my tactical battles, which basically means I'll press auto-resolve on most of them and still win. It's not really that much more difficulty, just a lot less fun.

EDIT: Of course, on expert, rebellions are more serious business than they usually are on hard, but on the other hand, it affects everyone, and the player tends to be smarter on loyalty management anyway.

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As far as tactical AI is concerned, on Expert I would rate it as 'Slightly Moronic' as opposed to 'Almost Brain Dead' on Normal.

I was paying careful attention to the discussion here, but did I make the correct conclusion? I felt that actually playing on Hard is more fun than on Expert because in Expert the tactical/strategical inability is countered by sheer numbers of the AI armies...?

On hard XL, the AI tends to not overproduce troops and wreck their economy. Even on expert though, you should easily be able to defend against 4-to-1 odds in less you don't have a decent hill to stand on. You just have to kill the general and time your cav charges right.

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Originally Posted by bretwalda

I was paying careful attention to the discussion here, but did I make the correct conclusion? I felt that actually playing on Hard is more fun than on Expert because in Expert the tactical/strategical inability is countered by sheer numbers of the AI armies...?

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No, the A.I. doesn't get any advantage it troop quantity, but rather in troop quality. A.I. units fight better and are far more difficult to rout, in fact, most decent troops would persevere through the death of their general, provided that their army hasn't been completely destroyed.

I put it differently then:

I play on Hard since I learned the game. I realized that the hardest but also most interesting part of the game until you get a decent empire and a good positive cashflow. Defensible borders, few enemies (most neutral or allied), ships in every sea region, etc. After that you basically won the game, it is still fun but you are no longer living on the edge.

If I switch to Expert, can I expect that the first part of the game will be even more difficult AND I still have challenge after consolidation? Will the tactical battles feel unfair? Would you suggest trying Expert or it just makes the game unfailry difficult thus less fun? Any ideas are appreciated!

@ Bretwalda,

if you want a challenge I suggest you try expert. It's not that much more difficult, just that the AI's troops will stay on the battlefield longer. On the strategic map, you'll have more rebellions and disloyalty. If you want a hard game, play the HRE in early/expert. The disloyal generals will forgive you for one or two defeats and maybe one failed crusade. After that it's civil war!
The Turks can also be challenging in early if you get a lot of Crusades coming through your lands, because their generals are also disloyal by nature. Hungary has also been tough for me.

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Originally Posted by Marquis de Said

@ Bretwalda,

if you want a challenge I suggest you try expert. It's not that much more difficult, just that the AI's troops will stay on the battlefield longer. On the strategic map, you'll have more rebellions and disloyalty. If you want a hard game, play the HRE in early/expert. The disloyal generals will forgive you for one or two defeats and maybe one failed crusade. After that it's civil war!
The Turks can also be challenging in early if you get a lot of Crusades coming through your lands, because their generals are also disloyal by nature. Hungary has also been tough for me.

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On the other hand, the Byz and the Danes are as easy as ever.

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Even on expert though, you should easily be able to defend against 4-to-1 odds in less you don't have a decent hill to stand on. You just have to kill the general and time your cav charges right.

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Depends on the troops you have and the amount of ammo/ missile troops. I have found some battles to be difficult even with an even number of troops on expert, especially with no height advantage and/or wooded terrain. Also, how good your general is will be a big factor, on expert some of the AI armies will have uber-jehdi generals:help: . So, in these cases either the general doesn't come until later and/or he is impossible to kill (happens sometimes). So the strategy of assasinating the general doesn't work as you're already routing before you might get a shot at it (and the AI general is chasing you off!:furious3: ).

And how about attacking (I've played vanillla MTW with no mods) on expert?

In my experience, the autoresolve doesn't get any worse on expert. My preferred strategy on attack is simply to mass a force of the appropriate size and either drive the enemy into retreat or press autoresolve as desired. It's as easy as pie with almost anyone in early. It does get less practical the later in history one starts since there's less time to build up the overwhelming force required but for me, it's still easier than trying to fight the stuff myself. :laugh4:

As an addendum, I've never been able to consistently assassinate a general in battle. If he wanders in close enough for massed crossbows to nail him, sure (missiles aren't picky), but I can name all sorts of times where 2 ghulam bodyguards basically destroyed/routed my entire army (of professional christian armoured troops), I've had them go through italians, I've had single swiss armoured pikemen generals basically spear dozens of horses. I once even had a bunch of royal knights get charged from above by an entire unit of druzina (armour piercing) and they killed all the druzhina down to 2 and the general never died. I'm personally convinced it just isn't a consistent tactic.