Socialism: Enemy of the Environment

I ran into a bit of interesting news on Yahoo today. It seems that

Quote:

---

Taxi driver Jaime Tinoco works the streets of Caracas in a 1976 Chevy Nova that guzzles 19 gallons (72 liters) of gas a day. But he doesn't worry about fuel efficiency -- filling his tank costs just $2.30.

---

This is because

Quote:

---

President Hugo Chavez, vows to maintain subsidies that keep fuel dirt-cheap.

---

While American and European(?) socialists and moderates complain about big oil's profits and gas prices, it seems that their ideological brethren are encouraging cheap fuel prices, to the determent of the environment. Saddam Hussein himself also subsidized fuel prices as part of his "bread and circuses" campaign to pacify his population.

So; are the market forces that are pushing oil and gas prices up good because they encourage conservation and development of alternative fuels, or do you side with Chavez on this? Is big government better than big oil?

I hope I'm still alive when the use of oil is no longer necessary. Then we will see who is laughing.

Plastics are pretty useful, so that will probably be a very long time....

As a fuel source its possible, even probable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ice

I hope I'm still alive when the use of oil is no longer necessary. Then we will see who is laughing.

---

At least as an energy source. However with the dominance of NIMBYs in developed nations I doubt the progress will be rapid. Who wants a fusion plant in their back yard?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ice

I hope I'm still alive when the use of oil is no longer necessary. Then we will see who is laughing.

---

I'm just wondering what the Middle East is going to export since right now its main exports is oil and terrorsim. Should be interesting...

Dave, Arab countries have for a long time been excellent merchants and traders. They can keep doing that till the world ends.

As for socialists and oil subsidies, I don't see how this is "to the determent of the environment", just because it's cheaper. They are not exactly going on vacations for fun with their cars and trucks (like Americans), they actually need oil for their work. Fuel being cheap for them means that they have extra cash to feed their families. I know how outlandish that sounds to you environazis, but people out there are poor.

As disco said, plastics are pretty useful. :2thumbsup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

I'm just wondering what the Middle East is going to export since right now its main exports is oil and terrorsim. Should be interesting...

---

Sand

I never knew that Chevy was a socialist corporation .
Oh well , you learn something new everyday .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince

Dave, Arab countries have for a long time been excellent merchants and traders. They can keep doing that till the world ends.

As for socialists and oil subsidies, I don't see how this is "to the determent of the environment", just because it's cheaper. They are not exactly going on vacations for fun with their cars and trucks (like Americans), they actually need oil for their work. Fuel being cheap for them means that they have extra cash to feed their families. I know how outlandish that sounds to you environazis, but people out there are poor.

As disco said, plastics are pretty useful. :2thumbsup:

---

and there aernt poor people in America. Americas is about 15 times the size of venzulea. Do you think people in America dont have jobs as well? I fail to follow your logic

The majority of America's poor are of a different category than south America's. Culture has a lot to do with it too. America is a car obsessed country.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince

The majority of America's poor are of a different category than south America's. Culture has a lot to do with it too. America is a car obsessed country.

---

You wouldn't believe the obssesion for cars of south american people if I told you, specially in Argentina around the capital, and other zones including Brazil, for example. In fact people are so obssesed here with cars that there's a lot of car accidents in drags and the youth bitching about the newest engine. However I agree with you, it appears to be more a cultural thing in the USA.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince

The majority of America's poor are of a different category than south America's. Culture has a lot to do with it too. America is a car obsessed country.

---

Still Americans are and have jobs and they are poor. I could show you quite a few Americans who wuold love to have some extra cash to feed there familes. The same goes for poor Venzualans as does Americans

in some places in the US its not just an obsession with Cars, its a way of life. Because of the high-speed culture that we live in, people are living further and further away from their place of work, due to either over population or the fact that its MUCH cheaper to live thirty miles from town and commute every morning then actually live in the town. Adding to that, that most cities in the US have very poor transit systems, its hurting the little guy the most. Ah well, I've always wanted to live in an Apartment Complex three miles in the air.

Socialism enemy of the environment ?

Tell me something I don't now.

It seems that contempt for any form of protection of the environment is essentail part of socialism of any kind. You can see it in China with major ecological disaster every month, you could/can see it in former soviet states or as it was for example in Poland.

Heavy industry, poisoned air, water, soil, destroyed forests - it was a damn, bloody nightmare.

It is amazing how quickly the nature in my country recovered from it, currently we have one of the least destroyed ecology in the whole Europe with virtually untauched huge forest of Bialowierza.

So fortunatelly it is possible to recover from the destruction, but it takes time, effort and money - large amounts of everything.:book:

America has quite a low-speed driving limit though. :tongue:

Plastics emit toxic fumes.. and are made from oil anyway. Most are some form of ethene that has reacted. Ethene comes from cracking hydrocarbons, which come from oil. So, discovery, no oil = no more plastics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince

As for socialists and oil subsidies, I don't see how this is "to the determent of the environment", just because it's cheaper. They are not exactly going on vacations for fun with their cars and trucks (like Americans), they actually need oil for their work. Fuel being cheap for them means that they have extra cash to feed their families. I know how outlandish that sounds to you environazis, but people out there are poor.

As disco said, plastics are pretty useful. :2thumbsup:

---

Quote:

---

Venezuela's gas subsidy is the subject of endless grumbling by economists who say it promotes consumer waste and costs the state billions of dollars in lost revenue.

Taxi driver Jaime Tinoco works the streets of Caracas in a 1976 Chevy Nova that guzzles 19 gallons (72 liters) of gas a day.


Shiny SUVs and rusty 1970s-era sedans share the streets of Venezuelan cities as drivers shrug off fuel costs.

---

I suggest you read the article.

I'm sorry, are you implying that Americans ride bikes or horses to work?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tiberius

America has quite a low-speed driving limit though. :tongue:

---

Oh, I know. The trick is to just add 10 or 15 onto it. :2thumbsup:

Its really wierd , I could have sworn that lots of nations kicked up a fuss when Russia recently ended it subsidies on fossil fuels being shipped to Ukraine .
This has left me really confused , if a country has subsidies it is bad , if a country stops its subsidies it is bad .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Its really wierd , I could have sworn that lots of nations kicked up a fuss when Russia recently ended it subsidies on fossil fuels being shipped to Ukraine .
This has left me really confused , if a country has subsidies it is bad , if a country stops its subsidies it is bad .

---

I think I could end with this confussion if you allow me. The original poster was looking for an adventorous chain of events, causal relationships and not inter-related events to demonstrate, some how, in someway, that socialism is something bad. But I think he has I point... I'm just not sure what's that point:inquisitive:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Its really wierd , I could have sworn that lots of nations kicked up a fuss when Russia recently ended it subsidies on fossil fuels being shipped to Ukraine .
This has left me really confused , if a country has subsidies it is bad , if a country stops its subsidies it is bad .

---

There, there. It's only because Russia was trying to bully Ukraine for daring to elect a President who didn't kowtow to Russia, and the way Chavez is using it encourages wasteful spending. Don't worry, someday you'll be able to understand the importance of context. :book: :2thumbsup:

By the way, where's JAG? I recall he was saying the gas prices in America should be increased, to 'stop the wasteful use of cars and prime the sheep to meekly accept mass transport'. Why is he not calling for a huge increase in the price of gas sold in Venezuela? Should not the people of Venezuela, so foolishly secure in their thinking that they can get around cheaply by themselves, not be shown what is right and correct through a bit of good ole social engineering?

Ah, well.

Crazed Rabbit

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

I'm just wondering what the Middle East is going to export since right now its main exports is oil and terrorsim. Should be interesting...

---

Well ... look at the UAE and you can already see what Middle East countries that are running out of oil could do...

There, there. It's only because Russia was trying to bully Ukraine for daring to elect a President who didn't kowtow to Russia, and the way Chavez is using it encourages wasteful spending. Don't worry, someday you'll be able to understand the importance of context.
Oh I see now , so Venezuela is not encouraging a taxi driver to stop using an inefficient '70s mucle car and trade it up to a new hybrid NY taxi that could get over 3x the MPG of the Nova , or a London cab that could get twice the Novas MPG .
But Russia is making Ukraine pay more for gas because it doesn't like the regime .
So Venezuela bad , Russia bad .
Now in wider context , Venezuela is supplying subsidised fuel to Cuba , so cuban taxi drivers have no encouragement to buy a more efficient hybrid NY cab , but they cannot buy a more efficient taxi because America will not allow it because it doesn't like the regime and is happy to have them drive around in big inefficient 1950s cars .
So Venezuela bad , Cuba bad , US bad .

Now for the socialism bit , enemy of the environment and all that .
At a time of rising oil prices Saudi Arabia and Kuwait have lowered their domestic motor fuel prices for their consumers , are they socialist regimes ?

I didn't know they had cars in South America. I thought all thatr smog in mexico city was from dysentery.

“It's only because Russia was trying to bully Ukraine for daring to elect a President who didn't kowtow to Russia” Hum, that’s remind me somebody who about some countries who refuse to kowtow: “to punish France, to forget Russia, and to forgive Germany”. Ah, yes Condoleezza “Candy” Rice Secretary of State and National Security Adviser. Wasn’t it bullying?

Don't worry; someday you'll be able to understand the importance of context. Yeah, if it is USA speaking of destabilisation, war against terrorism and WMD and “if you a not with as you are against”, that is right. When the Federation of Russia told some country: “Fine, you vote for Capitalism and Free market, here is the taste of that’s means (price at the market level) that is bullying…

About the subject, we mocked the Chinese and their millions of bicycles and now we blame them because they use cars.
About subsidies, it isn’t the label of socialist economy except if you want to say that USA is a socialist federation (Cotton iron etc).

Pleastics currently come mainly from oil. However, plastics can be made from plant materials (or indeed animal fat should the desire arise). True, probably slightly more expensive, but generally biodegradable as standard.

Fusion plants are fine. They don't blow up, and the only radiation is when they are decommissioned (assuming helium 3 isn't used).

UAE is doing well, but I feel that like Hong Kong and Macau there is room for only one (erm, that illustration is that there are two colonies very close together One has grown into a powerhouse, the other one hasn't).

~:smoking: