The Mongol Question....an Insight

Many times the question has been asked. “Could the Mongols have conquered Europe?” The subject has been debated over and over, with the various arguments put forward for and against. I decided to compile some information relevant to the question and at the same time, explaining some of the reasons why the campaign into Europe was abandoned.
Various opinions have been aired as to the Mongol withdrawal from Hungary, citing anything from lack of pasture to resistance being too strong. Generally the death of Ogodei Qa’an as the primary reason has been questioned; indeed some find this a somewhat fanciful notion and dismiss it as romantic nonsense or simply a convenient excuse. Let us look at some facts about the Mongols and their Empire.
It was almost by accident or, at least, a series of events that the Mongols were unleashed upon the hapless populations of Russia and Eastern Europe. The treacherous behaviour of the Governor of Otrar brought savage retribution upon the people of Khwarazm and the pursuit of Shah Muhammad by Jebe and Subedei brought the Mongols into Georgia, after they had first secured tribute from the Atabeg of Tabriz. The Georgians were preparing for the 6th Crusade and their King; George IV had a permanent bodyguard of over 30,000 Qipchaq cavalry. Their intelligence had reported the Mongols as looters rather than the efficient armies of a now great Empire which led the Georgians to believe they could easily see them off. News arrived that 20,000 Mongols were advancing towards Tiflis and full of confidence, George IV rode out to meet them with an army of around 70,000. The Mongols began a retreat as the Georgian cavalry charged until they were exhausted, stretched out and too tired to retreat or rally. The Mongols turned and advanced under a screen of arrows, driving a wedge into the Georgian army. The King withdrew to his capital to await a siege; some of his shattered army attempted a stand but were crushed. Two weeks later, scouts reported that the Mongols had gone and the Georgians convinced themselves that they had inflicted enough casualties that the Mongols had decided to look for easier targets elsewhere.
The Mongols however were a reconnaissance force and had perhaps been tempted by the lure of riches; both Subedei and Jebe agreed that they had enough to buy any allies and that battles should be fought only when threatened since they were not sufficient in strength to fight a series of battles or to besiege large towns and cities. In the winter they headed up the east coast and again the Georgians rode out to meet them. This time they kept their order and stayed out of range of Mongol arrows. They were ambushed from the side of a pass and when they turned to engage, they were hit in the flank and routed. The King escaped with his rearguard and Jebe and Subedei had unwittingly left Georgia defenceless and unable to field another army.
From Georgia they crossed the Caucasus, bought off the Qipchaq army waiting for them, defeated an Alan, Bulgar, Khazar alliance, hunted down the Qipchaqs and defeated them also, recovering their booty. They divided their strength and went about securing allies, spreading propaganda, placing agents, drawing maps of Hungary, Poland, Bohemia and Silesia and conducting surveys and a census. Their mission was complete they now began the journey home but as we know, their most astonishing feat lay ahead, the Battle of Kalka River. The Russians and their Qipchaq allies were destroyed and yet again the Mongols had displayed their ruthless efficiency.
This remarkable achievement by so small a force should indicate that a large Mongol army would require a huge effort to halt it. The amount of information gathered by Jebe and Subedei would also indicate that they would return.
This was the lead up to an invasion that destroyed the armies of Russia, Poland and Hungary; that saw Mongol scouting parties almost in Vienna. Bulgaria was subjugated and then…..the Mongols withdraw. Are we to believe that suddenly they discover that there is insufficient pasture? I do not believe this theory for one minute; this information would have been known since the reconnaissance by Jebe and Subedei. Since we know that the news of Ogodei’s death reached the invasion force and that they promptly returned home, there must be more than an element of truth that this was the reason for Mongol withdrawal. Batu did not return and from this point forth, the Mongol Empire was fraught with intrigue and internecine disputes.
Let us take a closer look into what was happening and the way things were done in this Mongol Empire.
When Chingis Khan died he left each of his remaining sons an appanage. That of his eldest son Jochi, who had died, was handed in turn to his eldest, Orda. As the youngest of the Khan’s four sons, Tolui received the Mongol homelands; this meant he also inherited the Imperial army. Though Ogodei would be the next to rule, he was constantly aware that his own personal army could not match that of his younger brother. In fact there is a distinct possibility that Tolui had designs on ruling himself until Yeh-Lu Chu-Ts’ai, advisor to Chingis Khan, convinced him to uphold his father’s wishes. Ogodei was not the incompetent drunk that some people believe; he had a weakness for wine which was true of most of the Mongols. Aware of this possible threat to his rule, Ogodei, from the Capital in Qara Qorum was able to keep an eye on Toluid affairs in the homeland especially since Tolui spent much of his time fighting in Northern China. When Tolui died in 1233, Ogodei even tried to strengthen his holding by marrying his eldest son Guyug to Sorqaqtani who was Tolui’s widow but she declined the offer.
Ogodei had the right as Qa’an to nominate or confirm nominations of heads of his brothers Uluses but in order to maintain primacy over the regional Khans he needed the means to support his establishment and power base. He set up regional administration to ensure the larger portion of local revenues was directed into the Imperial treasury, thus strengthening his authority over his brothers. Their rights could not be ignored however and ensuing disputes brought about the development of joint administration later in his reign.
Ogodei had the authority to mobilise troops from each Ulus, as can be seen by the list of ten Princes present in the Western campaign but he was unable to transfer Toluid troops to the command of his son Qoten without dispute, even after Tolui’s death. They were part of the Toluid Ulus and therefore beyond his jurisdiction.
The death of Ogodei threw Mongol politics into turmoil, as the five year interregnum confirms. His wife Toregene served as regent and it was during this period (and before) that her scheming secured the title for her eldest son, Guyug. Ogodei’s first choice to succeed him had been his third son Qochu who was killed in action, he then nominated Qochu’s son Shiremun. Failure by the Ogedeid house to uphold the will of the Qa’an was one of the reasons put forward by the Toluids to justify their claim on the Qa’anate. Since Shiremun was only young, Guyug’s elevation may have been achieved sooner but Batu had become ‘Aqa’ (the title means elder) when Chagadai died in 1242. Remembering the public insults that were aimed at him by Buri and Guyug, Batu did all in his power to stall procedure including nominating Mangku. Mongol custom demanded that all notables should attend a Quriltai to officially appoint the next ruler. Batu was aware that Toregene had achieved her aims, surrounding herself with supporters of Guyug and her plotting even threatened his own position.
After almost five years, Guyug was finally elected but the bitter dispute between himself and Batu meant that further expansion west would not resume or at least, not while Batu was head of that region. In fairness to Guyug, a man remembered for his sullen disposition, he undid most of the damage created by his mother, ridding the Imperial court of its schemers; though one unpopular edict was his insistence for written acceptance that the Qa’anate should reside within the house of Ogodei.
Matters of state kept Guyug busy for almost two years during which, Batu alone was responsible for administration in his new holding. Guyug sent troops to arrest Batu’s viceroys in the Caucasus while he rode to the Ili region, demanding that Batu meet him there to offer submission in person. Batu had also received word from Sorqaqtani that Guyug intended to have him arrested and executed, so in 1248, for the first time since Chingis had united them, two Mongol armies mobilised for conflict. The confrontation did not occur, Guyug died en route and Batu, now the most powerful individual in the Mongol world, set in motion a series of events that would permanently change the Mongol Empire.
Guyug’s widow Oqul-Ghaimish was Regent and trying to gain support for Shiremun. Not willing to allow this monopolising by the Ogodeids, Sorqaqtani set herself up in opposition. The military supremacy of the Toluids gave her the support of the majority of the Noyans and with Batu’s backing; she campaigned for her son, Mangku.
The Ogodeid and Chagadaid Princes boycotted the Quriltai assembled under Batu’s brother, Berke. Mangku was elected in 1251. A further twist saw a systematic purge of the Ogodeid and Chagadaid houses after a plot to sabotage the election and arrest Mangku and Batu was discovered. The main conspirators were executed; Buri, Yesu Mangku and Noqa (Guyug’s son) found themselves at Batu’s mercy. He showed them none. Shiremun was exiled to service in China thanks to Qubilai’s intervening plea for leniency; Mangku agreed but ordered his execution later. Expansionist plans started by Guyug into Syria and Southern China, were taken up by Mangku and Batu, who had given him the throne, enjoyed virtual autonomy in the West.
As was the case with any campaign, troops from each Ulus were provided and this was true of the Mongol campaign under Hulegu. Though to all intents independent, Batu was still expected to provide his share. We can fairly assume that by now, Batu had resigned himself to the fact that he would not see further expansion west and after he died in1255, it seems the idea was totally dismissed as the Mongol Empire continued to erode its own power.
The ‘Golden Horde’ has to be considered as the first element of a split within the Mongol Empire and they further alienated themselves under Berke who had converted to Islam. Hulugu’s execution of the Caliph of Baghdad was the supposed catalyst, though it is far more likely that the disputed south Caucasus region was the real reason for Golden Horde/Ilkhanate hostilities. Berke allied himself with the Mamluks and even provided them with Golden Horde troops.
By this time an Ogodeid Prince was rising to power in central Asia. This was Qaidu, whose interference in the separate Uluses seriously undermined Mongol plans. When Mangku died in 1259, Civil war broke out between Qubilai and Ariq Bukha. Qaidu sided with Ariq Bukha as did Berke, who provided Qaidu with troops. Hulegu was now in a dangerous position with hostile forces on all sides. He withdrew to secure his position and meanwhile certain White Horde Princes within his campaign force, were executed. Qubilai was eventually victorious but enmities within the individual Khanates were too deep to be reconciled. The downward spiral was now out of control.
Many historical sources point out the difficult time the Mongols experienced while trying to subdue the Song in southern China but almost all fail to look at the complete picture. The Song campaign was to all intents a ‘Yuan’ affair. Many Imperial troops were on loan to Hulegu; Civil war between Qubilai and Ariq Bukha; constant interruption by Qaidu, one of which allowed the Song to rebel and rally and thus prolong the struggle. Hardly any give the Mongols the credit they deserve for finally subduing the Song in a naval battle, a far cry from steppe warfare which is seen as their only strength.
Returning to the question of European conquest, the facts should prove that it was Ogodei’s death that ultimately saved Europe. Subedei is universally accepted as the strategic mind behind the Western campaign but some prior events in China almost denied him the chance of historical notoriety. He fell out of favour with Ogodei after failing to support another Mongol general. During the initial campaigns of Chingis and the reconnaissance of the western steppe, Subedei had been subordinate to Jebe. He retained his command with the intervention of Tolui, who championed his cause and he proved his genius in Russia, and Eastern Europe. Though Hungary was the target of the drive into Europe, the diversionary force under Orda in Poland left the country defenceless. The scouting force of Qadan pursued Bela IV throughout the Balkans and Dalmatian coast. Qadan was eventually driven from the field by a Croatian army but in fairness, he was extremely stretched, low on supplies and his troops were exhausted. Even though, he was still able to exact tribute from Bulgaria who submitted and recognised Batu as their overlord. With Mongol patrols as near as sixty miles from Venice and a reconnaissance force deep into Austria as far as Wiener Neustadt, the Europeans were panicking but still the petty squabbles persisted and there was no sign of unity against this threat. With no intervention, the main Mongol force could easily consolidate, reinforce and push on into Austria, Poland and Italy.
Some time ago I was part of a debate on the question of the Mongol Empire and the succession of its leaders. It was suggested by some that Chingis failed to secure his Empire by not naming a successor with the ability and disposition to continue the conquests; in other words that his best military commander should have become the next leader. I did not agree as there is far more than military supremacy to be considered when ruling an Empire. Ogodei had his commanders and he could rely on them. No matter who became Qa’an I would argue that at some point there would be a disgruntled party, feeling they have the same rights, to dispute the outcome and each generation would produce more of these disputes

.........Orda

I agree strongly with your assessment, its what I figured from what I've read. It also does not help that Jochi's legitimacy was called into question, because his mother was captured by enemies before his birth. And while the Empire may have splintered, it stayed together a lot longer than most nomadic empires.

I have a question, have you ever read the book "Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World"? It's an excellent book that I read. It doesn't focus much on the actual military tactics which to me is fine, since I already have a lot on it. But it is very good at adressing a lot of the misconceptions about the Mongols, and it discusses the reason why Batu withdrew (and comes to the same conclusion).

No Steppe Merc, I've not read that book but I agree with your choice of read. There are so many that cover the main events and far too few, unless you dig really deeply, that offer the information that we need to truly understand the subject. My post, as long as it is, barely scratches the surface of the intricacies of the Empire.
For example...
The purges under Mangku were ruthless but they were not decisively so. Cruel though it may be, if you instigate such eradication of your opponents/possible opponents you should see it through and erase them all, for if you do not, one day they will resurface. This was very much the case with Qaidu; only a boy when the purges began and too young to contest the throne. He actually benefitted from the murder of his brothers as they were his potential competition. Just as the other Mongol houses were dissatisfied with the Qa'anate residing solely with the Ogodeids, surely at some future time the same would be the case with the Toluids. Guyug replaced Qara Hulegu (grandson of Chagadai) with his personal friend Yesu Mangku (Chagadai's son) as leader of the Chagadaid Ulus. This was reversed under Mangku and Batu (I say both because it was very much a joint venture) and Batu executed Yesu Mangku along with Buri (who was as good as dead once Guyug died) and Guyug's son Noqa. There were many other Princes who escaped for not contesting Mangku's election and therefore the possibility of future dispute was still very much alive.

Imagine the descendants of a leader as an ever widening pyramid. Chingis had four sons by Borte but how many in total? There were concubines as well as wives. Let's not forget his brothers who also had descendants who would one day play their part in a dispute here and there. With every generation the claimants increase, it would take a remarkably understanding, tolerant family for there to be no jealousy or anamosity. If we consider that one youngster resents the fact that his grandfather or father was murdered, dispute is almost guaranteed.
Every Ulus had family individuals residing in it, each with their own pastures and these too became hot beds of disputes. When they occured, support would be sought from other directions and these battles would all undermine the Mongol structure.
Orda's White Horde Ulus bordered the domains of the Chagadaid house and those of Qaidu, who eventually ruled Chagadaid lands. It also bordered the Yuan to the north and the Ilkhanate to the south. Orda lived to a good age, around seventy. He died in 1280 but in the mid 1260's his son and Heir, Qonichi, was heading an army fighting with Qaidu against Yuan forces. In 1284 Qonichi sat on a council that decided to return a Chinese general to Qubilai. He improved relations with the Yuan and Ilkhanate. This threatened Qaidu and his Chagadaid ally Du'a and when Qonichi died, they meddled in White Horde affairs by supporting Quilug, who was then able to challenge his cousin, Bayan. Seeking support from Toqto'a of the Golden Horde, after his defeat, Bayan received none as Toqto'a was busy fighting Nogai :dizzy2: Toqto'a wasted no time in pointing out that Bayan's weakness was evidence to his right to rule White Horde lands. After a series of fifteen battles Quilug had seized some territory but Bayan was still ruling. He instigated a coalition of White Horde, Yuan and Ilkhanate forces and succeeded in 1302/3 after Qaidu's death and with Toqto'a victorious over Nogai, the Golden Horde signed the treaty also and Bayan secured his rightful position as Khan of the White Horde.
This would be considered a minor dispute but just consider the shifting alliances, the constant warfare and over a thirty to forty year period. The situation becomes worse the more we spiral outwards. The conflicts become larger in scale. When we take all this into account, the Mongol Empire resembles, very much, the Mongolian homelands prior to Chingis Khan.

The Jochid legitamacy has been over played by most authors I feel, it adds a little spice. No doubt there was a fair amount of gossip and there may have been some resentment but the only evidence of this is Chagadai's outburst, the rest is assumption. Most sources suggest that Batu refused the Qa'anate due to his questionable legitamacy, I think he was happy enough with his new domain and his position as virtual co-ruler with his good friend and nominee, Mangku. Unfortunately, Mangku died too soon; the purges were still fresh in the mind

.........Orda

Wow, gentlemen. I must admit to not being particularly well-informed about all of this, just having a basic knowledge of the Horde; but this thread has been very interesting! I have to go out and find this book mentioned by Steppe Marc now. You've peaked my interest.

Can you recommend a good book or books that might also deal with some of the other peoples of the steppes that I've taken an interest in, such as the Pechenegs and the Cuman and more? My knowledge of the Cumans comes almost solely from the story of Prince Igor.

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Originally Posted by Aenlic

Wow, gentlemen. I must admit to not being particularly well-informed about all of this, just having a basic knowledge of the Horde; but this thread has been very interesting! I have to go out and find this book mentioned by Steppe Marc now. You've peaked my interest.

Can you recommend a good book or books that might also deal with some of the other peoples of the steppes that I've taken an interest in, such as the Pechenegs and the Cuman and more? My knowledge of the Cumans comes almost solely from the story of Prince Igor.

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a classic introductory textbook is rene grousset 'the empire of the steppes'

Yes, Grousset is one of the best books on steppe-nomads.... i loved the reading....

Thanks, gentlemen. I'll look for both books. If it comes down to it, and I can't locate them to purchase, I can always find them at the university library; but I like having such books around for later reference.

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Originally Posted by Aenlic

Can you recommend a good book or books that might also deal with some of the other peoples of the steppes that I've taken an interest in, such as the Pechenegs and the Cuman and more? My knowledge of the Cumans comes almost solely from the story of Prince Igor.

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Well, this book doesn't really touch much on the Pechnegs, but it does throughout discuss a bit about the Qipchaqs (Cumans). It's Erik Hildinger's Warriors of the Steppe: A Military History of Central Asia, 500 B.C. to A.D. 1700. Unfortanently, it only really discusses the major players (Scythians, Huns, Mongols), and not enough on the many Turkish nomads (too much on the Seljuqs). I liked it though because of the info on the later nomads and those they influenced, like the Mamluks (many who were Qipchaqs), Timur-i-Lenk (Tamerlane), the Crimean Khanate, and the Manchurians. It's an overall good book, though a few of the stuff isn't gone into enough or at all, and some of the claims I didn't agree with (his discussion about the Sarmatian lancers in particular).

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The Jochid legitamacy has been over played by most authors I feel, it adds a little spice. No doubt there was a fair amount of gossip and there may have been some resentment but the only evidence of this is Chagadai's outburst, the rest is assumption. Most sources suggest that Batu refused the Qa'anate due to his questionable legitamacy, I think he was happy enough with his new domain and his position as virtual co-ruler with his good friend and nominee, Mangku. Unfortunately, Mangku died too soon; the purges were still fresh in the mind

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You're probably right, though I can't imagine it helped things. Batu probably was content with the West, since I doubt that rumors of illegimintacy would really have stopped any one determined to become Khan.

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Originally Posted by Steppe Merc

...like the Mamluks (many who were Qipchaqs)...

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This much I knew, at least! Baibars was a Kipchaq captured by the Mongls and sold into slavery and ended up the greatest Mameluke ruler. Baibars rule, the first Mameluke dynasty, the Bahri, was named after an all Kipchaq Mameluke regiment.

I'll check out that book too. There seems to be very little information on the early steppes peoples, pre-Mongol, the western Turkic tribes and the southernmost Finno-Ugric/Baltic and early Slavic tribes like the Magyars. Some on the Bulgars, Volga and Danube, not much on the Cuman/Kipchaq/Polovtsi and even less on the Pecheneg/Patzinaks. These are the groups in which I'm most interested.

Hello Aenlic,
Your subject choice is going to prove a problem, most of what we know about the steppe nomads is what was written about them by the sedentary nations. Even with the better known Huns, there is precious little reliable information and what there is, is tinged with sedentary bias and suspicion. My own interest in the Mongols has been a lifelong study well over forty years and there are still questions that remain unanswered. In particular, the Jochid line has been generally lumped under one heading, The Golden Horde. That particular identification is quite misrepresentative, Orda was never 'officially' part of the 'Qipchaq Khanate' and held the lands originally granted to his father. The 'White Horde' or Ulus of Orda stretched northwards from the Jaxartes to the Ulugh Tao mountains and from the Irtish, westward above Lake Balkhash and the Aral Sea. It included the Ili valley, the area where Guyug had demanded Batu meet him. Though Orda was one of the ten Princes in the Western campaign and had commanded in Poland and Hungary, he gained nothing from the new conquests. Batu, whose lands were further west and originally his in name only as they were yet to be brought under Mongol rule, was elevated from a lowly position with a limited army to King maker and the most powerful person in the Empire. It appears that Orda may have been very like his father, distancing himself from the limelight. There is a journal written for an Asiatic Historical Society that I must finally get my hands on, it gives an insight into the Ulus of Orda and should be just the thing I need for some of the unanswered questions.
I hope you have some luck in finding the sources you require for your own interest. The steppe nomads are a fascinating subject

......Orda

Agreed. One of the great obstacles to the study of ancient anthropology is that much of our knowledge of various groups depends wholly upon the impressions of outside peoples who had contact with them; and whose prejudices color those impressions. They were often regarded merely as unimportant barbarians by the writers. This dismissive attitude by the ancient writers of history has affected how we viewed these peoples. Slowly, we're overcoming that prejudice - I hope.

Thus we know nothing about the Sea Peoples except the very little recorded in Egypt. We are just beginning to learn that some of our assumptions about the Celtic peoples were entirely wrong and based upon the faulty assumptions of the Greeks and Romans. As you pointed out, our Western impressions of the Mongols was skewed entirely by our limited encounters with the western Mongol groups and almost entirely devoid of information about others. This problem is very pronounced with the steppes peoples and others further east because there is so little archaeological evidence to work with to balance out the impressions, often mistaken, of contemporary writers. Their very cultures are a hinderance to study because they left so little accurate information behind. What they did leave behind is just now coming into better study, as our methods and understanding improves; and because the world has better access to areas formerly behind the Iron Curtain now.

Another of the popular misconceptions is that of the Mongol cavalryman's mount. The modern Mongol horse is an animal of around 13 hands and correctly categorised as a pony, however the Asian steppe is a large expanse with horses of many sizes.
Akhal-Teke
A horse found in the east Caspian region, northern Iran and Turkmenistan. It is renowned for its stamina and endurance of severe conditions. Theoretically poor in rear conformation there seems to be no ill effect on the animal's performance. The Akhal-Teke stands over 15 hands
Bashkir
A very hardy animal from the Ural foothills which is still used for the production of airag/kumiss due to its very high milk yield. It stands 13.3 to 14 hands and will dig through a metre of snow to find food.
Arab
It is fairly safe to assume that there were some Arabs in the Mongol herds. They are 14.2 to 15 hands.
Excavations have found remains of some animals up to 16 hands which is a big horse even by modern standards. There is no argument that Mongol horses were smaller in stature than European horses but they were substantial enough to carry out their duties easily and any horse used one day was rested the next. Mobility and creating confusion among enemy formations were common Mongol tactics, splitting, isolating, very similar to the methods used in herding. A fine example of this can be seen in the Mongol tactics at Legnica. The Polish vanguard was engaged by Mangudai units who melted before the charge of heavy cavalry, drawing them further from infantry support and out of formation. Wet reeds were added to fires which created a thick, acrid smoke screen between the infantry and cavalry. Hit in the flanks by arrows from the Mongol horse archers who were encircling them, the Polish cavalry were thrown into disarray and finished by a Mongol heavy cavalry charge. Unable to see the situation and with Mongols appearing suddenly through the smoke, the infantry was slaughtered. There is also talk of the first aerial bombardment taking part in this battle by a man inside a large kite. Among European sources there is mention of all sorts of magic to explain the inability of their armies to cope with Mongol tactics. The reality was that the professional Mongol tactics in field battles were simply far superior

........Orda

Ha, and then to think that it was exactly family ties that originally built up the tribes subjugated by Chingis into a real and working nation and state!

Great article Orda, I agree wholly. :)

Yes, unfortunately with the passing of Chingis Khan, there was nobody with his overall ability to follow. The Secret History would have us believe that Ogodei was chosen for certain merits and there is an under current suggesting the reason for this decision. Personally, I try to look beyond possible bias or propaganda to uncover the facts. I think Jochi would have been the first choice and there is evidence to suggest this was the case, until Chagadai's outburst. Ogodei was then nominated as somewhat of a compromise; there was no way that Jochi would accept Chagadai after his insults and it was obvious that Chagadai would not accept Jochi. From a purely military perspective, the compromise would have been better placed with Tolui, it was Jochi and Tolui who had proved themselves more than adequate in this field. As a ruler, it was Jochi who had shown the most humanity, who had been appalled by the massacre throughout Khwarazm. He was a very accomplished commander but was equally adept at diplomacy, he seems to have learned well from his tutor, Jebe.
Families are what families are, how many of us have witnessed silly family feuds triggered by jealousy? When Ogodei named Shiremun as his successor can you imagine the scene? All the princes from the other three lines thinking "Wait a minute, who said the title should reside only with the descendants of Ogodei?" There would be every justification for dispute in my opinion. There is adequate evidence to suggest Ogodei was actually poisoned by his sister in law rather than dying through drink; she was executed when Guyug took the throne. A gesture of loyalty to his father by Guyug though it did not prevent him from taking up his position against his father's wishes. He replaced Qara Hulegu with Yesu Mangku as Khan of the Chagadaid Ulus using age as his excuse; was he also trying to vindicate his position over Shiremun by doing so? With his untimely death and all the court scheming aiming to promote Shiremun I can imagine the other houses were aghast. Two very prominent princes, Batu and Mangku were for sure and they determined to put an end to Ogodeid dominance; ironically this dominance rested henceforth with the Toluids :dizzy2:
After Chingis, the Mongols lacked the dynamic, forthright leader and though Qubilai is remembered as the Great Khan, even he lacked the ability of his grandfather. Possibly uniquely during the rule of Chingis, people achieved position through merit, perhaps this should have been remembered by his descendants. That is so easy to say but how do you overlook your own son in favour of his cousin? I for one think that Chingis was a hard, if not impossible, act to follow

........Orda

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Originally Posted by Aenlic

There seems to be very little information on the early steppes peoples, pre-Mongol, the western Turkic tribes

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There's actually tons of tertiary and secondary sources in Western languages about the Skythians of Ukraine, ie especially books about their art with pictures and all but, as once again one moves farther and farther east, one encounters less and less about the steppe peoples, so much so that by the time one reaches Semirechye, one gains nothing by looking at tertiary and most secondary sources but have to dig them up from obscure primary sources otherwise not devoted to the ethnography of steppe peoples.

Same goes for the European Huns. From the romantic and biased books about "ugly Huns" in the 19th century to modern books about how supposedly they were the "greatest steppe people because they beat the Romans" and other similar BS.

For the time period post-200 BC and on basically any steppe peoples trans-Caspian Sea to the east, one has to rely almost totally on Chinese sources. Polities such as Wusun and Da Yuezhi rarely get mentioned in standard books or those fancy books that hit the shelves of popular bookstores; one has to go to huge university or college libraries to find obscure sources about them. Polities such as Kangju are basically almost unknown even in many great secondary sources, despite the fact that they played a much greater and important historical role than more well-known peoples.

And again, the "western Turkic tribes" like the Seljuqs or Ottomans are pretty famous in the West, but what seems to be really obscure in common fancy books are tribes such as the Qarluqs, Turgesh, Turkut, Tokuz-Oguz, Dingling, Gaoju, Tiele, pre-840 Uygurs, etc.

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Originally Posted by Aenlic

early Slavic tribes like the Magyars.

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The Magyars were probably Finno-Uralic rather than Slavic, though they were culturally Turkic, probably influenced by the Turkut.

Hungarian is in any case a Fenno-Ugric language (and as such not Indo-European). The theories I've seen tend to talk about a Turkish steppe nation - called Ogurs or Oghuz or something along those lines, often assumed to be the root word for both "hungarian" and "ugric" - on a westwards drift mixing and eventually being virtually wholesale absorbed into the Fenno-Ugric Magyars dwelling around the upper reaches of the Volga, the resulting nation later migrating first southwards to play around with the Rus and the Khazars and eventually being pushed into Central Europe by the Pechenegs.

Isn't Hungarian a mixture of a little more than that? I heard there was about eighteen ways to say the same thing. An ethnic group recently lost their attempt to be categorised as Huns. Maybe one of our Hungarian members could shed some light here.
Jurchen Fury is quite correct, very, very little information exists about so many steppe peoples; what information there is we have to hope that the Chinese, Persian, Roman, etc sources are indeed accurate. For this reason I never take anything as actual fact, I prefer to consider it as possible or probable fact

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biased books about "ugly Huns"

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A classic example fostered by a biased source. The head binding practiced by the Huns was seen also among Sarmatian tribes (possibly through Hun influence) though it appears that it was by no means a mandatory cultural practice. Not all Hun remains possess the elongated, domed skulls. Ammianus, Priscus, Claudian, Sidonius, Jordanes, Jerome, all provide wild descriptions of varying degrees of hideousness which are IMO conjured up to stir a general fear and loathing to create a unified hatred among Roman subjects. The elongation of the skull would not result in the head becoming a shapeless lump and I see no reason to believe the other descriptions of them being twisted or otherwise deformed.
Historical research can take you on a very long obscure journey and it is so rewarding when new, reliable information is discovered

.........Orda

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Originally Posted by Orda Khan

Isn't Hungarian a mixture of a little more than that? I heard there was about eighteen ways to say the same thing. An ethnic group recently lost their attempt to be categorised as Huns. Maybe one of our Hungarian members could shed some light here.

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No doubt, I'm just reiterating what I know. They apparently absorbed the Kabarians wholesale (picking up a bit more Turkic vocabulary in the process) at some point before their move into the Great Hungarian Plain though - these being the defeated "conservative" faction from the part religious part political Khazar civil war of the early 900s.