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Ye gods, what is happening? I saw this on the beeb site this morning:
At least 1,000 British Soldiers Desert
Now I know I'm from a different age, but in my time I think I heard of three soldiers deserting in five years. I know it's not just Iraq (I mean, recruiting kids today is so difficult they have reduced the fitness requirements to being able to walk up stairs) but this level of disatisfaction is alarming. It will rip the heart out of regiments' morale.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Ye gods, what is happening?
Didn't you know , there is a badly run unpopular war going on .~:handball:
So you have desertions , people leaving , soldiers getting signed off by civilian doctors as "unfit to travel" , a recruiting crisis , and now a "soldiers federation" being formed , which is the closest they are allowed to having a trade union .
These total numbers are not very helpful. I'd be more interested in the percentage of soldiers deserting compared to say the previous three years, and the years before that, or to the numbers deserting during previous conflicts to get some historical perspective. At the moment this seems like another scare story to undermine the government, and the army. I'm more concerned with the government's tinkering (supported by some senior generals such as Jackson it should be said) with the regimental system.
could it be that maybe these soldiers think they made a promiss to serve "queen and country" and not "mr. blair´s and mr. bush´s" lies?
I think that might explain it.
could it be that maybe these soldiers think they made a promiss to serve "queen and country" and not "mr. blair´s and mr. bush´s" lies?
Look , for once and for all , the British and Ameican governments did not tell lies to go to war .
Ooops , sorry about that , I had my head stuck in the sand for a moment there .:2thumbsup:
S'funny you should mention that, you know I'm sure I read something about it in the Gardening Tips section of Reader's Digest. ~;pQuote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
My concern was that the war is having such an effect on an army where desertion has traditionally been remarkably low. It's a professional, volunteer army where the regiment is often more important to you than your family. (Not saying that's a good thing, indeed it leads to real dependency problems for soldiers moving into civilian life, but it's the backbone of discipline).
Apart from the odd misfit, back in the day very few people would consider desertion, as you'd be abandoning your mates.
Iraq must be bloody miserable to tour, but there's been some fairly nasty postings for the British Army before - Northern Ireland was no picnic, for example. There must be something more than the obvious. :inquisitive:
This seems a truly outrageously harsh punishment. I'm aware that a life sentence is the maximum, but still.Quote:
He was speaking in a debate about new laws which would make refusal to take part in the occupation of a foreign country punishable by a maximum life sentence in prison.
this is as good a reason as any for wanting to get out of both the region and the military
https://i4.tinypic.com/10yfmsz.jpg
Most soldiers want to desert when it gets hot, but enjoy the salary and close-to-nature life (if the war isn't in a desert that is) as long as there's peace or few casualties and many victories. It's been the case in all times. The only factors that have countered the desire to desert is harsh discipline measures to scare soldiers to stay in service, or an ardent support for the cause of the war.
When the war is taking place in a scorchingly hot desert climate, the casualties mount (they're still low compared to most other wars though so it's a minor factor in this particular case), the nature of the war isn't open battle switched by calmness, but sudden short bursts of hostility which come from nowhere and the intention of any civilian or uniformed man you meet is impossible to determine, and people dislike the cause of the war, then desertion naturally increases. If the increase is big, it might also be a positive sign that human finally consider independent thought, rather than obeying blindly, honorable.
Iraq must be bloody miserable to tour, but there's been some fairly nasty postings for the British Army before - Northern Ireland was no picnic, for example. There must be something more than the obvious.
Haruchai , you mention the regimental system and it being like a family , do you think that the disbandments and mergers in time of conflict are contributary .
On another note , have you noticed the amount of people leaving the defense forces now that the potings are getting a bit more hairy, and they are sending kids out with minimal training due to increased commitments .
Loads seem to be leaving the local battalion .
That's a pretty harsh (and very inaccurate) accusation to make. In my experience, most soldiers get on with the job however nasty the battle environment, because they care for their mates and they're professionals.Quote:
Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
And whilst some armies use conscription and harsh discipline to keep order, the British Army, most European armies and the US Army do not. Soldiers serve for many reasons, but being scared is not one of them. The modern army is not a Sharpe novel, you know. :smile:
However you may have a point if you're addressing the moves made by politicians to somehow 'force' soldiers to serve in occupying countries, as stated in the article. That's a pretty slippery slope - volunteer armies recruit people willing to defend their country and family - make foreign adventures (especially legally dodgy ones) a compulsory part of the service, and very few will join up. Defending one's country may sometimes require an occupation, but a soldier in the free world must be free to follow his/her conscience without the threat of life imprisonment. Some penalty if found to be groundless, yes, but more than a child rapist?
Yes, I think this may be a big contributory factor. My colour sergeant at Sandhurst was from the Devon and Dorsets, and when I visited with him later at his regiment, almost every member of the battalion was from those two English counties. Many lived next door to each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
The regiment makes the faceless truth of war (that politicians start the wars for soldiers to finish) into something understandable. Not many soldiers I knew fought for "Queen and Country" though that's what they usually said smart-like if I or another officer asked. No, their country was the regiment and the regiment was their mates. You'll die for someone you've been close to - it's not so easy to put it on the line for a concept, a flag or a politician.
The current government's policy of merging regiments into faceless adminstrative units, with their living histories consigned to a museum along with their ancient colours, is destroying the Army wholesale. It's a lot easier to desert from 'Administrative Unit Battalion 201' than the Royal Scots.
:shame:
Again, you're right. Too many underprepared and under-equipped people being posted stright from training. However, historically the army has always done this, and not suffered these consequences. A bigger problem is the increase in senior non-commissioned officers leaving, added to the regimental issues above. The services still don't prepare men well for civilian life after twenty years in the army, and many end up unemployed, homeless and with serious problems. Senior NCOs have woken up to this and tend to leave much earlier while they are still young enough to take advantage of their skills in civvy street.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Id love to join the British Army , i mean i think it would be amazing, but if was to be sent to some country where the people are not even respecting what you are doing for them and attack you all the time id most certainley feel as the majority of the soldiers do now.
I mean come on this war is a joke now to be honest, too many mistakes, too much time given and no results from the officials in Iraq.
I quite enjoyed my service in Afghanistan and was more than willing to go to Iraq. Just before the campaing in Iraq began, I sought a transfer to a deploying unit. For better or worse, the Corps had installed "stop loss stop move" policy and no one was allowed orders to new units except under the specific demand of the Corps. I was able and willing to transfer ever since, though now my opportunity has expired, being that I leave the service soon. Am I a rare type of individual? Not at all. Most of my fellow Marines are enthusiatic about service overseas. The ones who have paid high costs are also more than eager to return. Our K9 guys do a regular rotation over there and one of them was killed this past year. This made every one in the unit even more eager to go. Not to "avenge his death", but to conitue in the spirit of sacrifice and courage that he demonstrated.
The decision to serve one's nation is not to be taken lightly. I frown upon recruiting practices that focus on college or "one weekend a month". Certainly, every group has its cowards and weaklings. But the vast majority of this man's military is comprised of men and women who are proud to serve whereever their elected government chooses to send them. As a member of the profession of arms, it is not my place to decide policy. I may debate policy or even disagree with it, but service is exactly that: the voluntary decision to set aside one's own self-determination in order to act out the will of the people.
Those who are unwilling to serve, should not volunteer to do so. Unfortunately it seems that some in the British military have lost sight of waht service means. Furthermore, our permissive society and its culture of allowance means that many feel entitlement where not exists. We are not entitled, per se, to have liberty and security. We earn it and retain it through diligence and sacrifice.
I see an Mtv generation of suburban hip-hop, a pampered individualist subculture of the West. All of this is fed by the liberal media machine which exploits the natural tendency of youth to challenge the authority of parents and the law. Kids want to be independent; it's part of becoming an adult. The liberals play on this by attacking established cultural norms and promising them "freedom" from the rules. In the end our kids are enslaved by "political correctness" while their character is built on instant self-gratification at the expense of others.
The social-constitutional liberals are destroying America. Starting with our youth. Thank god for conservative champions who lead by example and demonstrate what real character is.
Sadly, even us conservatives are losing our ability to speak for ourselves. Our party has been raped by religious extremists and a small group of kooks who arrogantly presume that Americans are too fat and lazy to do real work. They have abandoned their principles of small government and state's rights. Even national security is nothing more than a buzz word; how can you have National security with an open border? I swear if this senate amnesty bill passes in the House, I will de-register and never vote republican again.
/wandering rant
1000 deserted sad.
“enjoy the salary” In which Army? I KNEW the French Army underpaid me!!! I got the same salary than a postman, less than a teacher….
“and close-to-nature life”: 5 days and nights of manoeuvre in November in Mechanised Infantry will cure this feeling quite fast. Didn’t know that to be in a tank, APC, or others means of transport and fight was to be close to nature.
I am joking: to be around a fire by minus 5C, a half body either burning either freezing depending exposition was a real joy.
“harsh discipline measures”. Harsh discipline works only if you are proud of what you belong because seen as essential. When you lost this feeling, when you lost the pride to belong, people will go, they will vote with their feet.
To be in an unpopular war isn’t by itself a reason to desert… But the loss of the why, the feeling to have been exploited can, the feeling that what you are doing is wrong…
Your absolutely right, and I just heard on the radio that its actually a tiny rise from previous years. Most likely some politicians just want to make a fuss about nothing as usual. I'll just try to find some hard figures on it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Peasant
Edit: Meh, it actually says in the BBC article linked at the top. The figues have stayed relatively constant from 2001 to 2005, only varying by a few hundred. They are just arguing about the definition of desertion it seems to me.
What ever happened to the good old days when deserters were shot?
Michael Jackson's tampering is certainly a large factor in this, and reducing recruitment. Several of my comrades in school have opted for Her Majesty's Royal Marines instead of the Royal Regiment of Scotland because the latter is not as, well, local, as the Black Watch was, and the Naval Service is much better at running things than Mad Mike...
I apologize if I sounded offensive, that was not my intention. I didn't mean that all soldiers just want to suck out money and don't do their job. On a second review of what I wrote, I agree that my phrasing was careless. I meant - wouldn't anyone question the necessity of being in such a situation if they were in it? Many keep on working still, through some sort of bravery or in order to preserve their rumor as being good workers. But even braver are IMO those who stand by their moral principles and are ready to think independently. Of course the state and tax payers could be discontent at their choosing to leave the army when in war after costing money in peace, but free thought is a great thing. What I was trying to say in the post above was basically that soldiers are humans too, there are cases when their work is difficult and easy for them to dislike. Believing that 100% of all soldiers will do their duty always is a common logistical fallacy in generalship throughout history. And the current situation is one that has led to desertion even in times where deserters were shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
That's what I hoped you meant! :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
Yes, pretty much everyone questions why they are there when the ordnance has ceased flying around. That's why soldiers are known the world over for their skill in grumbling.
My favourite summation of this actually came from the Nigel Green character in the film 'Zulu' when a ranker paled at the sight of the zulus and asked: "Why us, sergeant?"
"Because we're 'ere son. No-one else," replied his colour sergeant, phlegmatically.
Experienced NCOs are the heart, backbone and spleen of any army. They make sure the troops do their duty, and look after them before during and after any fighting. I think I would have married my battery sergeant-major, excepting he was a damn ugly Cornishman.
~:flirt:
You're a woman?Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
dude This is a womans forum.
Nah. Don't you know the reputation of the public school educated British officer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
~;p
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I'm pretty sure this war in Iraq is playing a part. And the government's denial until so late that proper equipment couldn't be ordered...
Yes, I think this may be a big contributory factor. My colour sergeant at Sandhurst was from the Devon and Dorsets, and when I visited with him later at his regiment, almost every member of the battalion was from those two English counties. Many lived next door to each other.
Its just that I caught a portion of a program on British TV(at the end of the kids daily TV time) dealing with the Black Watch , thier ;osses and their non-future. thoughas I have writen beforein response to Malcolms topics , isbandments and mergewrs are nothing new , but toadd that in atime of vonfkict they can be counteradventageous .
Again, you're right. Too many underprepared and under-equipped people being posted stright from training. However, historically the army has always done this, and not suffered these consequences. A bigger problem is the increase in senior non-commissioned officers leaving, added to the regimental issues above.
Hey Haruchai , in this case I am talking about the IDF , especialy the loca battalion , W est and central Africa have always been bad postings for the IDF , plus recently we had another bog -wog from the Islands killed out in Timor , the wall of the pub is getting covered in memorial plaques , evey other local sports tournament is in memory of another fallen soldier .
If the situation is thus in a non-aligned neutral nation then what the hell is it like for recruitment and retention in an "involved" country ?
Was that a mildly drunk post, Tribesman?
Actually, in an ideal world, those written into paper by the same philosophers that created the general liberal philosophy that was put into being by the creation of the United States, liberty and security should be guaranteed, to anyone, anywhere, anytime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
So the feeling of entitlement is, in fact, a desired result. If anything, Charles Dickens, the famous English (?) writer who despises the horrid conditions England used to treat her poor in the past, so that he would write masterpieces after masterpieces attacking it, despised more the lack of feeling that one deserved something than one actually lacking something.
Not that we do not appreciate your hard work to preserve the free world. ~:)
- -" Liberal, check. youth, check. Kids want to be independent rant, check. Rant against the opposition against rules, check. MTV, suburban, hip-hop, media machine, pampered, individualist, etc., check. Conclusion: old man's rant. :2thumbsup: Don't worry, I'll do it too once the damn kids are going to evacuate en-mass into cyberspace, or space, or whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
Yeah. Don't forget: the hippies are responsible for the defeat at Vietnam! Damn them! It doesn't matter their movement had been partially responsible for opening a formerly bigoted, conformist culture with boring music to a new world, hey.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
I never understand the craziness over the state's right issue. It seems to me to have always been the issue of "who holds the Holy Grail?" and not anything fundamentally important anyway, since both are, well, governments. But hey.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
Back on topic:
It would seem to me that the desertion rate is nothing too serious. There will always be deserters and such, the actualities of war not permitting one to hold any crazy ideas wrong. But I guess I don't have much experiences about the British army to have an opinion either way.
So did the reorganization--according to the posts here, I would assume it to be the "de-individualization," the removal of traditional symbols--of the army truly demoralize the troops?
Well, I don't know of any independent research (not the kind of thing governments are fond of funding, and soldiers never tell researchers the truth anyway) but my anecdotal evidence from speaking with former friends and colleagues still serving - some now in senior ranks - tells me it devastated, and continues to devastate morale throughout the army.Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
Equipment shortages, political ineptitude from leaders (both service and political) and the over-stretching of resources (not just Iraq, remember) mean the army is deeply troubled. I just never thought it would manifest in such high levels of desertion.
I wondered as I replied if you meant the IDF. Yes, but I think a lot has to do with us becoming a more 'mature' country. The days of Irishmen and women going off to the charity spots of the world without a care are coming to an end as we discover we like the soft life as much as any other European. But casualties always impact hard in small communities. And I would argue we have always been 'involved' - we just don't go around invading other countries to 'help out' ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Thanks, just as I suspected. A politically motivated headline-grabber such as 'Deserting in Droves' is shown to be false.Quote:
Originally Posted by LordHugh
As I said earlier, it is the messing around with the regimental system, a concern echoed in other posts, that is the real cause for concern.
I would have to agree with you. The data in the article does not seem to indicate what the headline is making it out to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by LordHugh