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What your opinion is,would be a good idea to form a new state of Kurdistan to middle east?Kurds are the minority in several states of the area including Turkey,Iran,Iraq and Syria.And there are separatist Kurdish movements in all of these states.Would creating a National state for the Kurds create more stability or chaos in the area?Here is a map of the regions that are inhabitated by Kurds.
https://img505.imageshack.us/img505/...cropped5mn.jpg
It would create more tension, there would be ill-feelings between Iran/Iraq/Syria/Turkey and Kurdistan if such a thing happened, terrorism, perhaps such as is seen in Palestine and Israel...
But isnt that the case already?The armed Kurdish separatist organisations are creating havoc like PKK in Turkey.Wouldnt a national state give a reason for these separatist to put down their weapons?Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Malcolm
But it would mean the nation-state giving up chunks of itself, which is something it and its people would not like to do, and the people may well take violent protest...
The Turks wouldn't stand for it - I think that was made clear around the time of
the Iraq invasion, when they were conducting manoeuvres and readying the
troops, at least for show.
Supporting the creation of a state for the Kurds would just worsen the UN's and supporting countries' ties with the countries that would have to give up territory for this Kurd nation to be realised. I also seriously doubt that the Kurdish radicals will just put down arms when 'Kurdistan' is created, they would have no problem finding another excuse to fight.
Well when you look at the Iraq.The most peacefull area is the Kurdish controlled Northern parts.There are over 20 million kurds in middle east and i dont understand why they cant have a state of their own?What makes the difference between Kurdish and for example Palestinians that majority of people think should have country of their own and also believe that is the only way to stop the violence between Israel and Palestinian separatist and terrorist organisations?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberius
Because we know it won't. Israelis don't like it. Palestinians don't like that Israel doesn't like it. Some Palestinians even think Israel shouldn't exist.
Those Middle-East countries certainly won't be happy if they lose chunks of their country to Separatists, they will want it back. It won't just be Kurds in those areas...
Send Tom Delay, he knows how to re-district
The Kurdish h area ismore peaceful because it is largely lacking the power vacuum that exists in other regions of Iraq, and it is my understanding that the area is not as developed or fertile as the rest of the country
Taking chunks of other nations would not be possible unless all the nations being chopped up were under occupation and under the will of the body doing the "redistricting." This isn't Post-war Germany, and while the idea of a Kurdish state could certainly work without these other mitigating factors, its not going to happen because Syria and Turkey would not allow it to.
Till the last drop of my blood, not a single stone that is the part of Turkey..Never and ever and in any means..
No sane Turk will ever allow and agree on a Kurdish state composing parts from Turkey. Those cuddly teddy bears resting and crying in arms of EU have made enough ugly steps forward under the guidance of countries calling out " The Rightful Case of Freedom Fighters", and no (Remember "Your Terrorist, My Freedom Fighter" thread?)..The day they flag up somewhere belonging to me/us, I'll be there to devastate/die even if I'm the last one standing to do something.
Emotions aside, creating minor ethnic/religious fractions is laying tasty butter on so-called Liberator World Polices' breads. It will never happen for the sake and the independence of my country and the surrounding region.
No offence meant at individuals nor thread opener dear Kage, however as you're likely to be familiar with it, that's my nerve.
there is your reason Kage. Now imagine 30 million of those with riflesQuote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
You know me LEN.~:) My intention with this thread was not hurt anybodys feelings,just to hear opinions about the issue.I completely understand your wiews on the issue and im sorry if i upset you anyway.:bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
No not at all indeed, I know who Kage is :bow: That 's the place where discussion gains meaning. By my last words above, I just wanted to explain why I used such "to-the-death" expressions in my post.
And it's thoroughly interesting that whoever visits Turkey in the name of humanity, democracy, blah-blah visits Kurdish-intense areas. Why don't you come visit here and ask people's opinion on whom you think "oppressed". You'll be amazed to hear. "You can't dare to hear" puts it better.
A repetead note, Turgut Özal (once prime minister and president of Turkey who allowed around a million Kurdish refugees from N. Iraq in), Abdülkadir Aksu (present and former minister of internal affairs of whom period is full of assassinations over journalists, professors and juries -there are 9-10 of them), Ibrahim Tatlıses (a super rich singer that is called Emperor who owns a mafia as well), Yılmaz Erdoğan (comedian, poet, acter), Mahzun Kırmızıgül (another singer), Ahmet Kaya (another legendary (!) singer pretended to have died) and so many other figures I can not remember right now are all Kurdish. From the top to the bottom, from the singer to the merchant they are in charge somehow (thank God none can progress in the Turkish Armed Forces as well as the fanatic Islamists).
Still singing for independency ? No way, this is Turkey, named by Ataturk, given his heroic efforts with his comrades and his beloved nation named after the Turk identity.
Poverty ? I'm not the one living in the cities and reproducing in numbers as if it is mytosis. Thievery, raping, mafiatic organizations, beating, harrassing, murdering, disturbing? There it is..Western Turkey was peaceful once..
Sorry I gotta stop here, I got pretty furious again. I have to stop before I sound "worse"..Sorry indeed..:shame:
The Turkish army had a very effective way of dealing with uprisings in the East. Any village suspected of aiding forbidden Kurdish organisations was simply emptied of people. Being that Turkey is a civilized nation (and NATO member) it wasn't possible to just execute all the villagers. They were sent into the cities of the West instead. Several hundred thousand wishing to return are still unable to do so as their villages need extensive reconstruction after being deserted for a decade. Make the government pay up or keep them in the cities.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
"Uprising of Kurds" is not an aged story. I simply don't like the stories I heard of happening in the background.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spetulhu
And the evacuation was simply not a good idea -I heard that as being the words of a commando friend who is currently serving in the south eastern Turkey. "Wishing to return" does not seem flawless, it's definitely a better life in the west. The problem is that the eastern Turkey is perceived as home of only the Kurds. There was a one-to-one population mix in most of the locations. However because of Kurds' imstoppable growing population, the other local citizens either left or were outnumbered hence demonstrating the place as an area inhabited by Kurds.
Kageshuma , where did you get that map ? why does it omit the ful kurdish claimsI>E> ovrr double the treritoty that that map shows ?
Well when you look at the Iraq.The most peacefull area is the Kurdish controlled Northern parts.:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
OMG did you really write that ?
In the narrow topic of attacks on coilition forces it is the most peacefull area , in terms of ethnic cleansing ,cross border fighting , statesponored terrorism , political assasination, foriegn(non-coiliton) military strikes it ispretty much the most voltile region in the former state of Iraq , and that is without considering the inter-factional fighting amonst the Kurds .:no:
Edit to add , sorry about the over double territoroalclaims , they over treble what is shown in the map
LEN, here's a hypothetical question for you: if all the Kurds would pack their bags and leave for Kurdistan, in exchange for their independence, would you be in favour of that?
Forget Kurdistan. I think we should reform the Achamenid empire. Or Arche Seleukia.
But I don't really think anyone will be up for that.
Interesting thread, thankyou for starting in.
You could look at this idea all around the world. My only worry about the Kurd situation was the fall of Sadam has set this in motion. North Iraq is almost a free Kurd state, if this ever becomes reality, ie by a civil war in Iraq and they declare independance then the whole area might become very dangerous. All the countrys that border this area and im thinking mainly of Iran and turkey will get drawn into the situation. The Times on Friday had an interesting article about this, and a TV show was on Channel 4 on Friday night.
In summary (Militant Kurds)
- Founded by Abdullah Ocalan in 1974
- Took the name Kurdistan Workers Part (PKK) in 1978
- Began fighting for a seperate homland in ethnic kurdish areas straddling Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria
- Kurds account for 20 % of turkeys population
- The EU and US class the PKK as a terrorist group, its armed struggle has cost 35,000 lives
- In 1999 Ocalan was captured and a ceasfire was announced
- Ceasefire ended in June 2004
- turkey claim the PPK earn $40 million annually from drug trafficking and receives a similar amount from kurdish expats.
- It has about 5,000 troops, with 3,500 in northern Iraq.
But as was also stated earlier one mans terrorist is also another man freedom fighter, so its hard to draw a line under it.
Man, that's my dream if I ever get a senior rank in political hierarchy of a Turkish government. I don't care what they would be doing in Northern Iraq with their independency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Whilst I do not defend the tactics of the PKK or any other terrorist organisation that insists on furthering its aims by indiscriminate killing of civilians, we should all be aware that Turkey, Syria, and Caucasian Russia are hardly Kingdoms of Peace and Love.
Turkey and human rights
Quote:
Most of the 378,335 Kurdish villagers forcibly displaced by security forces during the conflict of the 1980s and 1990s are still unable to return to their homes in the southeast. The government’s Return to Village and Rehabilitation Project has failed to provide even the most basic infrastructure, and villagers are unwilling to return to settlements that do not have electricity, telephone service, or a school. Implementation of a 2004 law to compensate the displaced has been uneven, with some villagers receiving appropriate sums while others’ claims were unfairly dismissed.
The threat of violence from village guards—paramilitaries armed and paid by the government to fight the PKK—remains an important obstacle to return. Some returning villagers were attacked by village guards during the year. In March 2005, a village guard shot and killed thirteen-year-old Selahattin Günbay, near Nusaybin in Mardin province, because he was allegedly grazing animals on the guard’s pasture.
To be entirely fair, there are increasing movements in Turkey to redress the problems, and they are making some headway. The PKK would do well to stop any terrorist actions and engage with the process positively, because all they do is harden the hardliners. After all, they have the big battalions of the EU on the side of their aspirations, if not their methods. Sadly, like the IRA, they are largely composed of thugs, not freedom fighters.Quote:
The European Court of Human Rights issued scores of judgments against Turkey concerning torture, unfair trial, arbitrary detention, and extrajudicial execution. In July 2005, the court found the Turkish government responsible for violations of the right to life concerning twenty-two people shot dead by police during disturbances in Istanbul in 1995 (?im?ek and others v. Turkey).
Syria, as if anyone needed a link
Turkey is being held to a much higher standard because of its aspirations to join the EU - which despite the hype, is never going to happen while the military continue the repression of free speech.Quote:
Kurds are the largest non-Arab ethnic minority in Syria, comprising about 10 percent of the population of 18.5 million. Activists have long called for an end to systematic discrimination, including the arbitrary denial of citizenship to an estimated 120,000 Syria-born Kurds.
Since the March 2004 clashes between Kurdish demonstrators and security forces in Qamishli that left more than thirty dead and four hundred injured, tensions in that city and surrounding areas have remained high. A prominent Kurdish cleric, Muhammad Ma`shuq al-Khaznawi, disappeared during a visit to Damascus in May 2005; the Interior Ministry denied having al-Khaznawi in its custody, and authorities found his body in eastern Syria three weeks after his disappearance. His sons and Kurdish activists blamed state security for the abduction and murder, stating that there were signs of torture on his body. After the announcement of al-Khaznawi’s death, more than five thousand protesters gathered in Qamishli to condemn the killing. The protest escalated when looters, allegedly local Arabs, pillaged more than eighty Kurdish shops.
In September 2005, police beat a Syrian Kurdish woman to death when she attempted to stop the demolition of illegally built homes outside Damascus. According to defense lawyer and human rights activist Anwar Bunni, residents were primarily poor Kurdish workers.
On November 2, Syrian authorities freed seven Kurds, including three women, who had been arrested earlier in the year for belonging to a “secret organization aiming to annex part of Syrian territory to a foreign country.”
Kurds are not even allowed to speak or publish in their own language. Is it any wonder they aspire to their own liberty?
I don't believe, personally, that any territories should be taken from the nation of Turkey, but that an autonomous province in the south east, set within a Turkey that has embraced and been included in the European Union (and all its standards for human rights) would be the best outcome for all.
Unfortunately, the probable outcome is that when the US coalition leaves Iraq, the north of that country will inevitably declare independence and the whole region will explode.
Another fiasco created by Lloyd George and his cronies at the end of WW1.
Making a Kurdistan out of the Curdic part of Iraq on the promise of the curds to not demand land from for instance Turkey or any other country would IMO have been possible without stirring up tensions at the time of the beginning of the Iraq war. It was possible mainly because Saddam had killed curds with chemical weapons and carried out a few other forms of oppression. But now I think the window for such a suggestion is probably gone, as there's ATM no direct oppression targetting Curds AFAIK. Because first of all there's AFAIK no oppression specifically targetting Curds. That means two things - 1. it's difficult to convince the country that loses a part of it's land that the new state is a necessity, 2. it's difficult to convince the Curds that if they get an own state it should only contain land from one of the countries in the region even though there are curds in all of the surrounding countries.
The situation is different than for instance Montenegro breaking off from Serbia, because of these factors. There's no fear of Montenegro going to require land from other neighboring countries as a result of the independence, and Montenegro was almost independent already before the vote. In the end I think the predictions of how it would affect stability in the region and the severity of previous oppression of the group is what determines whether the idea of independence for a group or province gains support.
Update your diary please. The steps towards EU and Islamic-based government's actions have already softened the degree of pressure military has over free speech.Quote:
Turkey is being held to a much higher standard because of its aspirations to join the EU - which despite the hype, is never going to happen while the military continue the repression of free speech.
Another update required here as well.Quote:
Kurds are not even allowed to speak or publish in their own language. Is it any wonder they aspire to their own liberty?
I share the history of Ottoman Empire and am wise enough not to fall in such traps again. The collapse years are full of such stories managed by "authorities" from abroad.Quote:
I don't believe, personally, that any territories should be taken from the nation of Turkey, but that an autonomous province in the south east, set within a Turkey that has embraced and been included in the European Union (and all its standards for human rights) would be the best outcome for all.
:laugh4: No offence Duke Malcolm, but I found one of your previous posts rather amusing and ironic:
"Some Palestinians", I think you should rephrase that to the vast majority of Palestinians think Israel shouldn't exist.Quote:
Previously Posted By Duke Malcolm
Some Palestinians even think Israel shouldn't exist.
As to a Kurdistan, it would probably create more problems. Especially with Iran and Syria. And judging by LEN's post, the Turks would not accept the idea what so ever.
Another update required here as well.
Then again LEN the treaty which broke up the Empire is very specific when it comes minority rights , culture and languages .
So is it a case of an update that was nearly 80 years late ?
The relevant update refers to their freedom to speak their language.
The relevant update refers to their freedom to speak their language.
Yep , and the freedom to speak the language is in the treaties that Turkey signed 80 years ago .
Hence......So is it a case of an update that was nearly 80 years late ?
Edit to add , just as a thought . How much of the Kurdish homeland territorial claims are also claimed by the Assyrian homeland movement , or the Aramaeic homeland movement , can they have their own country as well ?
"Speaking your own language" may be a cornerstone of a democratic republic, however I'd like to know if you mean that Lausanne agreement included such terms.Quote:
Yep , and the freedom to speak the language is in the treaties that Turkey signed 80 years ago .
Hence......So is it a case of an update that was nearly 80 years late ?
Areas that wish to be part of a kurdistan should be allowed to do so. After all, we're in the region to promote freedom, right? The autonomous regioj of Iraq would be the main part, and bordering areas would then be able to join.
Sure it's idealistic, but so was going into Iraq in the way we did, so why not?
~:smoking: