valouring up agents

After reading the post about spies and their merits I have a question about agents.

I use agents but mostly on defence. I love to use them on the offence but once they are out of their safe enviroment in the harsch world they die to soon or can't do anything useful. The obvious reason: they don't have enough valour to go on the offensive.

So how do you valour up spies, assassins, (grand)inquisitors, bishops and cardinals?
How many stars do they have to have before you can use them offensively?
What are your strategies for using those agents (that has reasonable success)

Thanks in advance

First of all: In my experience, spies and assassins usually aren't caught if you send them to a province without border forts.

- Spies valour up if they do a succesful 'spy-mission'. If you tell them to go and find secret vices on the enemy king, they valour up if they succeed. (they go from 0 to 1 valour after only one succesful attempt, you'll need more to gain more valour). I guess they also gain valour for catching your own generals for treason, but I've never tried that.
- Assassins valour up after killing stuff. Emissaries, bishops, imams, princesses, enemy generals and even heirs and faction leaders. Keep in mind that you need to be at least level 5-6 before having a good shot at killing generals and princesses.
- Inquisitors valour up the same way: try to burn a target at the stake (start valouring up by using your own peasants). If they succeed, they gain valour
- I've never seen it myself (always had 0 valour clergymen), but apperently your bishops valour up if they cause an enemy province to go into religious rebellion. If I remember correctly, your holy men can also try to offer alliances and cease fires with enemy factions, so that might work too.

And you can give your spies and assassins some extra starting valour by teching up your brothels and drinking dens etc. The max bonus is 3 valour, but I'm not sure

Very good answer, Vlad. Just to add some things:

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Originally Posted by Vlad The Impala

If I remember correctly, your holy men can also try to offer alliances and cease fires with enemy factions, so that might work too.

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You remember correctly. This is the only way to valour up your Bishops, Cardinals, Alims and other holy men.

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Originally Posted by Vlad the Impala

Spies valour up if they do a succesful 'spy-mission'. If you tell them to go and find secret vices on the enemy king, they valour up if they succeed. (they go from 0 to 1 valour after only one succesful attempt, you'll need more to gain more valour). I guess they also gain valour for catching your own generals for treason, but I've never tried that.

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Spies are probably the most complex agents in the game (if you're interested, check this thread https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=52284 ). There are 7 missions they can do. They gain valour for four of them: revealing vices of foreign generals, organising a successful trial for your general, opening a castle in a province you're besieging and causing rebellion in enemy provinces.
I'm not sure if they gain valour for informing you about enemy's plans.

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Originally Posted by Peasant Phil

How many stars do they have to have before you can use them offensively?

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For inquisitors, I don't send them in hard missions (for ex. to burn 7-star enemy ex-prince with good piety) until they reach lvl 5. Grand inquisitors are similar, but they're easier to train as they have more chanes (than ordinaly inquisitors) to successfully burn general.
Training inquisitors isn't hard. Just get your crappy 0-piety generals in a province with high zeal and (grand) inquisitors will valour up quickly. Good thing about GI is that they have good chances for burning low-piety enemy princes at valour 5 (and more).
For spies, I usually never send them in a province with BF unless they are valour 5. You can also train them on your own and/or enemy generals.
For assassins, I tend never to send them in a BF province for longer than 1 turn.

A cheap trick for assassins:

Build multiple assassins. Use one of them to kill off the rest/ or other own agents.
Voilá a high valour assassin. :grin:

Another thing, get Syria and level up the building. +2 valour from Syria, iirc.

I think it's a bit of a waste to kill your own agents. Usually, once you've expanded your territory quite a bit, the AI has a boatload of emissaries and clergymen hanging around in your kingdom, who usually make for good targets. And they cost you nothing.

The best ways to valour up spies/assassins are:

1) Train pre-valoured up agents using the improved brothels and taverns available in MTW/VI 2.01.

2) Put them on the defensive counterspying in your provinces. If you plan to do this then you should not build border forts as this will make your spies/assassins redundent.*

3) Send them on easy missions within your own provinces or rival provinces without border forts. Try to keep track of them so that they don't go wandering off... to their deaths.

*My preferred method.

Ok great answers.

I'm looking forward to destroy other factions while my armies wait to take the rebel lands.

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Originally Posted by CheziScrotus XVI

The best ways to valour up spies/assassins are:

1) Train pre-valoured up agents using the improved brothels and taverns available in MTW/VI 2.01.

2) Put them on the defensive counterspying in your provinces. If you plan to do this then you should not build border forts as this will make your spies/assassins redundent.*

3) Send them on easy missions within your own provinces or rival provinces without border forts. Try to keep track of them so that they don't go wandering off... to their deaths.

*My preferred method.

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Chezi's tips are all good ones - I'd like to expand a bit on points #2 & #3.

2) The best provinces for counterspying with your low-valor agents (assassins & spies) are those with ports. Don't build Border Forts or Watchtowers in these (everywhere else, though), which will entice the AI to probe there with their agents. I like to have multiple assassins + at least one spy in each of my port provinces, so that I can strip off some assassins for pursuit of any enemy agents that occasionally slip through my net.

3) Try not to give kill orders to any of your assassins against visible rival agents (Emmisaries, Princesses, etc.) within the same friendly port or border province. Should that target agent choose to depart for a hostile foreign port or border province (one with a BF or rival agent) during the action phase, your agent will follow them and risk death. Instead use an assassin(s) from an adjacent interior province, first move them from home province to target province, and then jump them on the rival agent (giving the kill order) in the same turn. Your agent will move and attack after you hit the END YEAR button, but won't leave the target province until the next year - giving you the chance to review their new target province (if their target has left).

I like to eventually end up with multiple assassins/spies in each of my provinces, but ports are especially valuable as "agent traps" against the AI.

I ve seen advice saying to send assassins in packs. How does that actually work?
And yesterday I sent an assassin to kill an emissary in Florence and next turn he ended up in Scotland.Was it a quick getaway? TF

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Originally Posted by Geezer57

2) The best provinces for counterspying with your low-valor agents (assassins & spies) are those with ports. Don't build Border Forts or Watchtowers in these (everywhere else, though), which will entice the AI to probe there with their agents. I like to have multiple assassins + at least one spy in each of my port provinces, so that I can strip off some assassins for pursuit of any enemy agents that occasionally slip through my net.

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Watchtowers don't catch rival spies and assassins as border forts do, so you can still buld them in all of your provinces. They only act as a spy in all neighbouring provinces, wheras border forts act as a counterspy in your the province where the border fort is built additionally. I don't build border forts anywhere, I get my spies out early in the game and start valouring them up. After a time I have several 5 valour spies catching everything that enters without problem. Assassinations are no longer a problem and the border forts are not missed. I can then use a mass border fort building contingency in the late era to help counter the low loyalty of the bloat effect if necessary, though I've never needed to do this. The most important thing is to have multiple spies or assassins in the province, because if one fails to catch a rival agent, the next will most likely succeed and if not, then the next etc etc. I've also not seen any evidence that not constructing border forts or watchtowers entices the AI assassins/spies to enter a province, in fact the AI seems quite stupid in this respect, sending multiple agents year after year to the same province, and to their deaths, in a border fort province.

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Originally Posted by Geezer57

3) Try not to give kill orders to any of your assassins against visible rival agents (Emmisaries, Princesses, etc.) within the same friendly port or border province. Should that target agent choose to depart for a hostile foreign port or border province (one with a BF or rival agent) during the action phase, your agent will follow them and risk death. Instead use an assassin(s) from an adjacent interior province, first move them from home province to target province, and then jump them on the rival agent (giving the kill order) in the same turn. Your agent will move and attack after you hit the END YEAR button, but won't leave the target province until the next year - giving you the chance to review their new target province (if their target has left).

I like to eventually end up with multiple assassins/spies in each of my provinces, but ports are especially valuable as "agent traps" against the AI.

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You can also leave some emissaries or priests as bait in those port provinces to help tempt the enemy in. Once spies/assassins reach valour 5 I tend to send them elsewhere and rotate to another few 3 valour spies and begin valouring them up again.

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Originally Posted by Tony Furze

I ve seen advice saying to send assassins in packs. How does that actually work?
And yesterday I sent an assassin to kill an emissary in Florence and next turn he ended up in Scotland.Was it a quick getaway? TF

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Sending in packs gives you more chance of at least one of them managing to pull off the assassination. They don't work together, but one after the other. Basically you're increasing your chances and not just pinning your hopes on one agent to pull off a mission.

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Originally Posted by Tony Furze

I ve seen advice saying to send assassins in packs. How does that actually work?
And yesterday I sent an assassin to kill an emissary in Florence and next turn he ended up in Scotland.Was it a quick getaway? TF

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Yeah, if the target moves to Scotland the turn after you order the kill, the assassin will follow his target. Sometimes you the assassination takes place three or four years after you ordered it, depending on how the target moves.

Sorry if its already been said but princesses behave much like emissaries so they probably gain volour through successful alliances (no they usually don't make too many obviously). I've had princesses and other agents gain valour through assassination survival as well.

speaking of agent valour, I'm pretty sure this has already been asked a million times but what effect does valour on bishops/emissaries/princesses have, apart from making them more likely to resist assassination attempts?

also I'm quire interested in the "no-border-forts-but-spies" method...so spies alone catch & kill enemy spies/assassins? or does one need assassins for this?
in addition, do spies contribute to province happiness?

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Originally Posted by Deus ret.

speaking of agent valour, I'm pretty sure this has already been asked a million times but what effect does valour on bishops/emissaries/princesses have, apart from making them more likely to resist assassination attempts?

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I'm sure that that is the only effect it does have.

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Originally Posted by Deus ret.

also I'm quire interested in the "no-border-forts-but-spies" method...so spies alone catch & kill enemy spies/assassins? or does one need assassins for this?
in addition, do spies contribute to province happiness?

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Spies/assassins catch and kill rival spies/assassins. In addition spies contribute to provincial happiness (loyalty). It is a good idea to use mainly spies for this because the assassins don't contribute to provincial happiness. Also as the spies valour up their happiness increasing ability also improves. When these spies attain a high enough valour they can deployed in rival provinces to try and cause a revolt.

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Originally Posted by Deus ret.

speaking of agent valour, I'm pretty sure this has already been asked a million times but what effect does valour on bishops/emissaries/princesses have, apart from making them more likely to resist assassination attempts?

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It is supposed to make them better at negotiation, but as diplomacy is not the most fleshed-out aspect of the game I am not entirely sure if this really works.

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Originally Posted by Ludens

It is supposed to make them better at negotiation, but as diplomacy is not the most fleshed-out aspect of the game I am not entirely sure if this really works.

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Maybe emissaries are better able to bribe when they valour up? Though I've never noticed it. As to bishops and peace/ceasefire negotiations involving either bishops or emissaries that doesn't seem to make any difference.

On a slightly related note, I recently found a general who had picked up the "Outlaw" vice, so for once I decided to use a spy to try him for treason (btw I'd NEVER done a treason trial before, so wasn't quite sure what to expect).

As it turned out the trial was a "failure" in as much as there wasn't enough evidence (he was a pretty loyal chappie despite his outlawry) but what did happen was that his "outlaw" vice disappeared, to be replaced by the "informants" virtue. Pretty cool result. So I think I might use my spies a bit more to sort out some more of the thieving, conniving :furious3:s scattered across the far-flung corners of empire. I don't think the spy earned any valour though, cos his mission was a "failure".

What does the informants virtue do ?

"Informants" adds +2 valour vs spies/assassins, often seen where an agent mission has failed. Darn sight better than "outlaw", anyway :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by CheziScrotus XVI

Maybe emissaries are better able to bribe when they valour up? Though I've never noticed it. As to bishops and peace/ceasefire negotiations involving either bishops or emissaries that doesn't seem to make any difference.

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High-valor Emmissaries are not only able to bribe with better results, but they often get a lower price in addition.

Doesn't valour on Bishops affect the conversion rate?

I had a new experience last night, the first assassin unit I have built in my current English campaign appeared with 5 stars. The province is Anjou, not developed too much . Subsequent assassin had no valour as usual...

This 5 star hero - assassin is valuable addition to my gameplay.

Is his name maybe Guy of Gisbourne? :-P

Yes it is very much so! Some well known master of assasin art? :idea2:

As there are general heroes, like El Cid or Baldwin of Boulogne, with high command, there are also agents heroes (emmisaries, inquisitors and assassins) with high valour. Guy of Gisbourne is hero assassin and he appears with 5 stars.
If you're interested, here you have list of all heroes

And as for historical person, I haven't heard about him yet.

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Originally Posted by Knight Templar

And as for historical person, I haven't heard about him yet.

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Wiki says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_of_Gisbourne

Apparently part of the Robin Hood legend.

I learn something new every day. :2thumbsup: