Turkish "Delight"?

A baptism of fire this was called...

Turkish/GA/Early/Normal

Managed to get to 1210,the Spanish launched a Crusade which sat outside my province in Constantinople.

Clever Spanish...put all their crack troops in another force and attacked Egypt,one of my most promising provinces.A good battle-my Sultan got up to 10 valour then fled and ended up witrh -1.

Shortly after, a mass rebellion takes place in the Turkish camp-due I suppose gto the Sultans fall from grace.

Can I salvage the situation? I ve been here before...and lost. When my man went up to 10 valour(we'd killed the enemy generaL) was there something I should have done?

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Originally Posted by Tony Furze

A baptism of fire this was called...

Turkish/GA/Early/Normal

Managed to get to 1210,the Spanish launched a Crusade which sat outside my province in Constantinople.

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Common, though not usually the Spanish. More often the French or the Holy Roman Empire. The trick is to let it sit there and ensure that if it does decide to attack, that you'll meet it with a strongly defensive force or futuwwas, turco foot, ghazis, saracens and armenian heavy cavalry among others.

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Originally Posted by Tony Furze

Clever Spanish...put all their crack troops in another force and attacked Egypt,one of my most promising provinces.A good battle-my Sultan got up to 10 valour then fled and ended up witrh -1.

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I'm not sure what you did, but you need to be wary about commiting your faction leader to battle. He should only be in the thick of it when the outcome is a foregone conclusion, otherwise he should only be out there pretending to fight. You can deploy your Sultan's unit at a decisive moment in a good flank attack and turn the tide of the battle. If this was a battle you thought you couldn't win, you'd have done better to pull your men off the field, though it doesn't always work out like that.

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Originally Posted by Tony Furze

Shortly after, a mass rebellion takes place in the Turkish camp-due I suppose gto the Sultans fall from grace.

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When you say a "mass rebellion" do you mean civil war or revolts? The sultans losing influence from the defeat may have triggered a civil war, though normal revolts don't usually occur if your provincial loyalty is under control with a 100-200 man garrisson, spies and happy buildings.

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Originally Posted by Tony Furze

Can I salvage the situation? I ve been here before...and lost. When my man went up to 10 valour(we'd killed the enemy generaL) was there something I should have done?

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Once he had gained 10 valour you could have sent in another unit to enage his opponents and then pull him out of there. If your general cuts and runs the rest of the army's morale goes with him.

I think that there are actually 3 Crusades waiting in Constantinople:a German,an Italian and a Spanish.The first two are tiny, but the Spanish one has 1000+ men.

The Sultan turned up in Egypt because it has the most buildings,and (silly me) I forgot he was there.When the invasion occurred,so he got caught uCivil war- I was asked to choose between loyalists and rebels.

What do you normally do in this circumstance? Roll back the clock or patch up the kingdom? I m going to try both.

Sounds to me like you had a rebellion by your generals. That could happen if your faction leader takes a big hit to loyalty and you already have borderline (3 flag) generals. Spies help a lot with this. If you have a spy in the same province as an army, and the general is leaning toward rebellion (his loyalty goes below 3), then you'll get a message about his loyalty. When this happens, you can shift army leaders around until the disloyal general is under the command of some other general with a better loyalty and higher command. If you have no other options, pull the disloyal general back to wherever your king is and put him under your faction leader's command, in the same stack. You can also assassinate him, although this can lead to rebellion by itself.

As for handling the rebellion, that's going depend on what option you chose when the rebellion arose. It's not always the best bet to choose the loyalists. It also might not always be best to just choose based on who controls the most provinces. What you want to choose by is number of troops, if the number is uneven enough that you can quickly overcome the disloyal troops. If the troops numbers are close to even, then choose the side with the best, not necessarily the most, provinces. You could choose the side with the most provinces and suddenly find yourself without your richest and most developed.

In your case, it sounds like you should choose the side which doesn't control Constantinople. I know this sounds counterintuitive; but stay with me on this. Why keep Constantinople and thus tie down armies keeping the crusaders at bay, when you need all your armies to retake your rebelling provinces. Let the crusading armies do your work for you. They'll either tie down a bunch of rebels, or the crusaders will attack and whittle them down for you. By the time you get back to Constantinople, you'll have rebuilt your armies, and gotten some more high valor generals in the process. This seems a fair trade for giving up the wealth of the big city for a while. If the crusaders are strong enough to defeat the rebels in Constantinople, then they'll likely be much reduced in size, making them less of threat when you get there.

When you do get near Constantinople, if the crusaders are still there waiting outside; you now have a dastardly option to deal with both. Send in enough troops to make the rebels commit to battle instead of a massive force guaranteed to make them cut and run. Don't send in your valuable generals. Send in cannon fodder generals. The crusaders might decide to join in, and will appear as an allied force to the rebels. If so, call off the battle. If the crusaders don't join in, then send in your cannon fodder troops and take command of the battle yourself.

Now here's the tricky part... :wink:

Don't win. Just whittle down the enemy forces and then abandon the field and let them win. This is why you want to use cannon fodder generals. You don't want to lose the high valor and command points of your good generals. If you do this right, the rebels will still be in control of Constantinople with a much reduced army, and you'll have most of your armoy with all your good generals intact. The crusaders will then be more likely to take the opportunity to invade. Whomever is victor of that battle is then easily crushed, and you've killed two birds with one stone - eliminated the rebels and eliminated the crusaders.

Worst cast in the above tactic, the crusaders just wait it out and you'll be forced to send in all of your armies and your best generals for a second battle. Hopefully you'll have enough troops and good generals that the rebels will just give up without a fight. Now you're back in charge of Constantinople, with the crusaders right outside. That's where you were before, anyway. So, no harm done except the turns wasted fighting the rebellion.

Remember to use spies. Every game I play, I usually have one province pumping out priests/alims. I use these as my spies in other provinces, with the added benefit that they prepare the other provinces of the map for my eventual conquest by turning the populace to my religion slowly but surely. Over the course of the game, I put one of my priest/alims in every province on the map, including any of my own that aren't at 100% my religion. They keep me apprised of who is doing what to whom and where my chief enemies are going to be.

While the priest-maker province is pumping out priests, it is building up the tech tree toward assassins and spies. That's all it does - assassins, spies, priests and any financial benefit tech like farms and traders, mines, etc. As soon as the province can make spies, I make enough for every province I own. That isn't usually many more than 8-10, which is when I turtle up and begin building my forces for conquest. After that it's back to priests or alims, etc., and a few assassins to work on building up their valor for use against enemy. I usually only use assassins to destroy enemy agents and priests in my territory so they can't spy, and to take out the Pope when I'm playing a Catholic faction and the Pope gets uppity. :grin:

One more thought. Generally the AI will go after whichever faction has the most provinces with a vengeance. This is one reason to put cheap priest/alims in every province. You can keep an eye on the mini-map to judge how you're doing. If you can stay in 2nd place, then the AI will do a lot of your work for you by attacking the first place faction instead of you all the time. When the time is right, crush the 1st place faction. The rest should be a piece of cake.

Good luck on that rebellion! Pain in the butt, but they're fun sometimes. :2thumbsup:

The 3 crusades in one province sounds like fun -- I'd be tempted to wait it out, depending on what are their targets?

If they're all trying to capture Constantinople, there should be immediate diplomatic ructions in the west once the stronghold falls. Three crusades can't all capture the same province, so there should be two civil wars and a major breakdown in international relations in the west. That may be more to your strategic advantage :2thumbsup:

Macsen is right. It is not clear whether Tony meant the 3 Crusades were aimed at Constantinople or they were just hovering outside Constantinople because none of them were willing to attack his forces stationed there. Either way if he lets the Crusades play patty-cake with the Rebels and then goes in to mop up, like Aenlic suggested (very devious Aenlic, mucho clever), and all three Crusades fail, there will still be horrible ramifications in the West.

Aenlic, that is a very clever play. Most players knee-jerk reflex would be to back the faction holding Constantinople, but in this case the rebels would serve as a speed bump into the Turkish Empire. Enough to give Tony some time to get his Imperial House in order. I remember the thread on using rebel buffer zones, and this particular case it would seem wise as long as it doesn't become a permanent fixture like you outlined.

I see only one pitfall, albeit a small one. A simple solution to neutralize the rebels for the 3 Crusading factions would be to bribe the rebels. I have seen comp factions bribe rebels alot. If thats the case, the plan might have to be adjusted a bit.

My vote is to not back up to an earlier save. Rebellions can be frustrating, but they tend to be one of the factors that make campaigns memorable. Keep us posted, if played right you will have seriously undermined a number of Catholic heavy-hitters in your game.

Thanks for the great replies!

The generals loyalties were fine before the civil war, so it must have been triggered by the crushing defeat in Egypt.

The 3 Crusades are sitting in Constantinople which is held by the Italians. I had a huge force in Nicea, who now have become majority rebels.
The Crusades are all targeting Antioch-my province.

Sounds like I should stick it out with the civil war...haven t managed to get back to this one yet...

Again, a really big thanks.

I lost and now I m out of it as my CD DVD Drive is being fixed...

I lost in the end-and now Im out of it while my CD DVD Drive is fixed...sitting on the sidelines...
just when the new Gold patcxh has been released too.

Later...

civil war followed by civil war followed by...more civil war!At some point I guess i should have backed the rebels.How do you know which side to choose when faced witha civil war?

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Originally Posted by Tony Furze

Later...

civil war followed by civil war followed by...more civil war!At some point I guess i should have backed the rebels.How do you know which side to choose when faced witha civil war?

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If you followed Aenlic's advice you should back whomever will not gain control of Constantinople. Under most normal circumstances I back whoever looks to be a better King or whoever looks like they are going to get key provences or the most provences.

If I'm roleplaying then I might stick it out with King. I typically click and hope for the best. Usually I dont have rebellion problems until a point where I can opt out under a Lesser Victory.

I have made the experience that a civil war ma suffice to ruin the entire game because one may easily draw more after it - due to the steady loss of influence suffered by the loss of more provinces (which can't be relieved in time etc). I had this happen as the English once: Owning all of France I felt strong enough to send a crusade to Antioch....stupid noob, I sent it by land and enjoyed the sight of over 2,500 crusaders (that was in Hungary). When they arrived in the holy land and had thinned out to a mere 800, they weren't in the shape anymore to take their aim from the well-prepared Eggies, so they failed....and I got a civil war. Then the French reappeared which cost my remaining continental provinces. Then the next civil war erupted, letting the majority of the loyal troops rebel that had remained in Britain, so that (after one more civil war) I ended up with only Northumbria, my king and a single loyal 6-star general, with no cash and large rebel stacks in the surrounding provinces which subsequently were either attacked or bribed by more potent opponents....It was then that I decided to quit.

What should I have done? I stuck with the loyalists because they had by far the better command ratings - I figured that I'd need capable commanders to re-establish myself after this huge losses of men. May this have been a bad consideration? Anyway, I have never run into a civil war again because I've learned my lesson damn it.

Deus ret. Wow, yup that would definately be a lesson well learned. You didn't back it up a few years and go with the other side?

Hmm, civil wars .... I HATE THE POPE!!!! :furious3: Yup, I'm playing as HRE and I'm on my second civil war, and it's all the Pope's fault. I mean who does he think he is, head of the Roman Empire or something? Dammit, that's MY job!

Oh, sorry... still a bit sore from last night's 3am fifteen-battle session! I should have paved the way for the Pope's return in time, but instead the re-emergence caught me unprepared and I've now lost all of Italy again, back up to Venice and Milan (it's about 1220 and the Pope came back with double my garrisons and a good lead on tech, and with reasonable command). Rolling back to defendable borders gave me a huge influence hit, and ergo, civil war. My loyalists kept 35 of my provinces, the rebels took 6. Dratted Spanish leapt in to take advantage in Aragon, and most of my new teched up chiv troops and remnant Swabian swordsmen rebelled as well. Luckily I held on to Sicily, whupping a Papist invasion force, for at least one success against the god-bothering maniacs.

When it came to picking sides, there was no choice, really, between 35 provinces and 25,000 men vs. 6 provinces and 5,000 :juggle2: Luckily my capable generals stayed loyal (lots of baubles, titles, and royal totty along the way helped out there, of course).

I managed to keep most of my finance centres (Sicily, Flanders, Wessex, Genoa, Valencia) but lost a lot of iron, which will hurt the recovery (Sweden to rebels, Aragon to the Spaniards, Tuscany had already been ceded to the foul anti-Pope, Urban III.) What's really annoying is that the teched-up stacks heading towards Italy to sort out the Pope managed to rebel. Amazingly I'm still not excommunicated. No doubt Urban the Vengeful is saving that till after I've settled the civil war, just so he can precipitate another one on me.

Anyway, I've decided to fight on through this, though it has made a mess of the Empire, my army and my finances. I have a few more battles to fight as I had to auto the last few in order to get some sleep last night. Praise be for quick-saves between battles!

Yet another reason why I don't play HRE.

Tony did you give up the ghost on this one, yet? Not that I would blame you, but I was wondering if you made it through all right.

Yep. After a terrible defeat and watching the losers screen (once again) I took my 'puter to be repaired for a faulty CD/DVD drive.

Im starting over.

Thanks for the concern,Sensei.

No prob Tony. Are you gonna rev up another Turkish Campaign or try your hand at something else?

Not decided yet.
I ve started one as Al Mohads but mainly to try out the fixed CD DVD drive.Thing is, I played a lot of muslim factions when I first got the game,never finishing a campaign, so I became saturated with them.

If your lookin for a change try a Catho faction. I suggest the Spanish if your not to keen playing patty-cake with the Pope.

Or if you like the flexibility of Muslim armies then maybe the Byz, they have a good mix of troops. The Russians have an Eastern flavor to their troops as well, but in High and you'll have to deal with the Horde.

My top plays that aren't Muslim:

The English. Longbows rock.
The Byz. Crazy flexibility. Power troops with skirmishers and missile cav. Its like the best of both worlds.
The Italians. Crazy money and Italian Light Infantry.
The Spanish. Jinnies are awesome once you get used to them. If you get to Late Lancers are mucho scary. :skull:

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Originally Posted by Sensei Warrior

The Byz. Crazy flexibility. Power troops with skirmishers and missile cav. Its like the best of both worlds.

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The Hungarians are also a similarly, well moreso, hybrid faction. They have vanilla Horse Archers, the famous Szkeley Horse Archers and low cost javelin units, the Jogabby. You're also close to convenient rebel orthdox and pagan provinces as well as the Byzantine and Novgorod, so no papal problems.

Almohads are a good choice though for your next campaign Tony (currently playing an elmo campaign myself after the egyptian one started to get a bit predictable). They are not difficult to get into. The main thing is to tech up Granada to produce those +1 valour AUMs while pushing out ships to surround your coasts and prevent crusades jumping in. Once you're strong enough, both the Castillians and the Aragonese should be removed forcibly. Once you control all of Spain your trade will start to roll in and you'll have access to those northern Iron provinces. Your AUM from Granada can be routed through here and upgraded to make them very formidable indeed.

The one thing to remember when playing the elmos is that you don't have access to Saracen Infantry. So you have the choice of upgrading Nubian Spearmen as a substitute or using Muwahid Foot Soldiers. The former are preferable due to their larger base unit size, Muwahids are better used for flanking. The Murubatin Infantry (Javelins) are very good also but take some getting used to. The trick is to take them off skirmish and keep a line of Nubians read to relieve them if they get charged. Berber Camels I'm not overly impressed with but they're not terrible, they're slow so they don't have the same advantages as vanilla horse archers. They have an inferior attack to Berber Camels so they're not as good in melee, though they are the only mounted archers the Almohads can get hold of until you've teched up to Faris. Once they're available you can forget about the camels.

On the strength on my current campaign, the Sicilians are fun - especially if you try a high start. for a fuller picture see my thread See Naples and die"

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=65937

They are a "smaller" power, so you build up a trade empire, defend your borders, make the odd grab at provinces, work up to the odd crusade etc. You do things in small spurts as opposed to a steamroller, blitzkrieg style of approach. You have to pay attention to cash and work at alliances and diplomacy. The High start is good, as you kick off with some nice troop types as opposed to all those peasants, Um style of armies where a spearman is an uber troop which you have with an early start.

So why not give it a go - you do get generals called Maciavelli!!:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by King Kurt

So why not give it a go - you do get generals called Maciavelli!!:2thumbsup:

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Only with Irish christian names! :laugh4:

There's supposed to be a fix for that but I've never got round to downloading it...

*goes to search the org*

Nice name-change, Caravel!

Thanks for all the (as usual) good advice from everyone. I' ve got 20 days left before the job kicks in again,so I'm eager to get a win on 'Normal' by then. Once the job starts...it's back to 45 mins to 1 hour MTW a day...

Just started Al Mohads and on GA, why is it El Cid's so hard to bribe yet so easy to beat? He sits in the middle between two bridges and you can march your men at their slowest from the unguarded bridge side and whip him.

The hybrid Hungs sound my style. I tried the Byz and couldn't get used to their gradual obsoletisation (???) They become hard to handle.

The Spanish I got my first win on Easy.

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Originally Posted by Tony Furze

Just started Al Mohads and on GA, why is it El Cid's so hard to bribe yet so easy to beat? He sits in the middle between two bridges and you can march your men at their slowest from the unguarded bridge side and whip him.

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I've often wondered the same. Also he was supposed to be an important noble and general, so why is he a Jinete general with such a paltry force at his disposal? Maybe a reflection of his later life as a mercenary? Anyway, it usually takes several attempts to bribe rebel generals posessing a few command stars so this is normal.

I haven't played the Hungarians in awhile so I forgot about them. Add them to the list as well.

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Originally Posted by Tony Furze

I'm eager to get a win on 'Normal' by then.
<STUFF DELETED> why is it El Cid's so hard to bribe yet so easy to beat? He sits in the middle between two bridges and you can march your men at their slowest from the unguarded bridge side and whip him.

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Bump up the difficulty to "Expert", and I think you'll find the A.I. becomes somewhat more sensible. I've had numerous bridge attacks (on Expert) where one bridge was undefended at the start - but as soon as I started any of my troops towards the vacant crossing, the A.I. sent a sufficient counterforce to stymie my crossing attempt.

I m a long way from expert yet...but the al Mohads are tussling over ownership of the Iberian Peninsula.

Somehow getting rid of the \spanish threat early means less of a headache later.