The British in Afganistan

http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanista...813676,00.html

Forget Iraq, this is going to be the story. We are in the soup chaps.

This mission makes absolutely no sense, and yet I bet no one is ever held to account for this. A small number of troops are expected to (1) end poppy growing, in a region where that is the staple crop, thereby cutting off the incme to 90% of the population and (2) enable all sorts of wonderful infrastructure projects to take place,in (3) a region where every adult male is an armed lunatic and the Taliban have free rein.

And they are up for a fight aren't they, ambushing the paras in broad daylight, these boys don't give a monkeys.

Mark my words, this one is going to hell in a handbasket, as any fool could have told from the outset. 3000 troops? You'd struggle with 30,000. Has anyone in government heard of the 1842 retreat from Kabul I wonder. Basic lesson in Afghan history: they are all armed, they are all mad, and they live in thousands and thousands of square miles of prime bandit country. Avoid.

I don't know about history but I've seen Rambo III. The Afghan are bad****.

Okay and this mission once again shows the utter retardness of military command these days...

Sad to say but alot of those of those soldiers are not going to come out alive as much as its sickens me, its the truth, still i see no valid reason why the hell we are getting involved in stupid middle eastern conflicts, that we should play no part in.

It needs to be stabilised for the sake of the trans-Afghanistan pipeline, otherwise they wouldn't give a hoot about the place. All the rebuilding, peacekeeping and stopping of poppy growing is just their usual, laughable cover story.

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Originally Posted by Caravel

It needs to be stabilised for the sake of the trans-Afghanistan pipeline, otherwise they wouldn't give a hoot about the place. All the rebuilding, peacekeeping and stopping of poppy growing is just their usual, laughable cover story.

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Well, stopping the poppy growing would also have a massive effect on the heroin trade, so there is an interest there too seeing as large quantities of it ends up in Europe.

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Originally Posted by LordHugh

Well, stopping the poppy growing would also have a massive effect on the heroin trade, so there is an interest there too seeing as large quantities of it ends up in Europe.

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Because more expensive heroin would mean less crime ? :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by LordHugh

Well, stopping the poppy growing would also have a massive effect on the heroin trade, so there is an interest there too seeing as large quantities of it ends up in Europe.

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Stopping the heroin trade in that manner is like mopping the floor to fix a leaky pipe.

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Originally Posted by English assassin

Mark my words, this one is going to hell in a handbasket, as any fool could have told from the outset. 3000 troops? You'd struggle with 30,000. Has anyone in government heard of the 1842 retreat from Kabul I wonder. Basic lesson in Afghan history: they are all armed, they are all mad, and they live in thousands and thousands of square miles of prime bandit country. Avoid.

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Agreed.

It is what our charmingly eloquent American colleagues would term a 'cluster ****'.

There is a clear, legitimate and necessary reason why we went there. It was to end the Taliban regime, destroy AQ's base, avenge 9/11 and prevent further acts of terrorism. These should remain the objectives.

Maybe we've become too ambitious along the way. I'm all for building schools, promoting woman's rights and stopping the heroin trade. But maybe at some point we should accept that we're not going to turn Afghanistan into a kind of Switzerland any time soon and start to think of a way out.

We believe that man should live in a peaceful, stable society, they believe that live is about herding a few goats and wives while wielding a Kalashnikov and a long beard. Fine.

I think we should just settle for any sort of workable regime there that will not harbour terrorists and that respects elementary human rights. And then gradually pull out.

Still cant understand why you would care about peoples human rights on the other side of the world, its not exactly affecting your life is it?

Let them live the way they want to and the way we want to, i honestly dont care if they beat their wifes and have guns, as long as their doing it on their land and not here.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I think we should just settle for any sort of workable regime there that will not harbour terrorists and that respects elementary human rights. And then gradually pull out.

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I think that we simply shouldn't interfere in other cultures, trying to make them conform to our ideals, standards and human rights policies. This whole world police thing has gone too far.

Louis, you make some good points but nation-building is way more complex than the politicians think. The mission was accomplished, though if the Taleban are resurgent, we may need to go back.

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Originally Posted by King Ragnar

Still cant understand why you would care about peoples human rights on the other side of the world, its not exactly affecting your life is it?

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What about the human rights of the 3,000 killed in the World Trade Center? Afghanistan's collapse provided a base for that to happen. Seemed to affect their lives a tad.

Thats american Buisness, wasnt an attack at Britain, the only reason the 7/7 attacks really took place was due to the fact we followed American in to Iraq and tried to be hero's, and most likley more attacks will happen now becaue we have entered another country, trying to give them democracy when they clearly dont want it.

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Originally Posted by King Ragnar

Thats american Buisness, wasnt an attack at Britain, the only reason the 7/7 attacks really took place was due to the fact we followed American in to Iraq and tried to be hero's, and most likley more attacks will happen now becaue we have entered another country, trying to give them democracy when they clearly dont want it.

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Well, I guess you're consistent. :smile:

What about the British citizens that were killed on 9/11?

Well thats just pure bad luck for them to be there, look i could understand us wanting to kill the likes of osama bin laden and other people connected in the chain of command in the terrorist organisations, but does is it really neccesarry to invade two countries to get the job done?

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Thats american Buisness, wasnt an attack at Britain, the only reason the 7/7 attacks really took place was due to the fact we followed American in to Iraq and tried to be hero's, and most likley more attacks will happen now becaue we have entered another country, trying to give them democracy when they clearly dont want it.

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It's that kind of isolationism that leads to wars, if no nation is willing to stick behind its allies. Britain supports its allies - heck we even joined in their war from the beginning.

There was a powerful group that ran Afghanistan. They cut poppy cultivation right down and they had American support too.. now what were they called again?

America has many other allies that havn't sent troops to get killed in Iraq or Afghanistan. To say that we need to go as we have an alliance is fitting of Tony Blair - as though once there is an alliance all rational thought goes out of the window.

If Afghanistan the first country to harbour people linked with crimes that are wanted in other countries? No.

So they attacked to get the people that they thought helped plan 9/11. The ones that definitely did were all dead, and mainly from Saudi Arabia!

Aghanistan is an area whose borders are defined as those of land no one else wants. Even in Northern Pakistan it's almost the same tribal lawnessness.

We join in for those in 9/11?? What about the ones that the IRA killed? Or the lockerbie terrorist attack? We didn't attack Lybia or Ireland in either of those cases.

British troops need to get out. And if the poppies are such a problem as they might support crime, we should legalise it and get an import agreement with them.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Idaho

There was a powerful group that ran Afghanistan. They cut poppy cultivation right down and they had American support too.. now what were they called again?

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That was back in the days when that particular group came under the "Friendly Fanatical Islamic Fundamentalist Regimes, Warlords and Dictators" classifaction.

Amusing, Ragnar.

The UK are America's best buddies, and they want to remain so. So much of your country depends on the USA, such as nuclear technology, any kind of major international influence (admit it, you're not a superpower) and trade.

You went into Afghanistan to show your support. Why do you think Mongolia sent a hundred men to support the USA in the Middle East? Just a show of their support and hoping to get into America's good books. You already are in their good books, and want to stay there. You also want to benefit from the oil which was supposed to make you all rich if the attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq went smoothly, which obviously hasn't happened.

As for the human rights issue you've raised up. It is the moral thing to do, is that so difficult to understand? The talk of not valuing any human being's life apart from those of your allies and your country's is, frankly, disgusting. They are humans as well, and as such deserve equal rights.

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Originally Posted by Tiberius

As for the human rights issue you've raised up. It is the moral thing to do, is that so difficult to understand? The talk of not valuing any human being's life apart from those of your allies and your country's is, frankly, disgusting. They are humans as well, and as such deserve equal rights.

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Well then i have a black heart im afraid i couldnt care less about people being killed on the other side of the world miles and miles away for no reason none of my buisness, if your gona be like that then we might as well invade India or somewhere else that has things like arranged marriages because thats terrible think of the poor women who are marrying men they have never met:dizzy2:.

Honestly if you want to help them join a charity because i sure as hell dont want to waste my tax money on them.

Ahh, it's good to see all the do-gooder liberals ~;) in the UK here bleating about a handful of casualties. Serving men despise whining civilians wringing their hands over what they are doing, because they know that they don't really care.

The only thing wrong with this operation is that it is not focused, as EA has pointed out. They can't do everything. Hell, the Americans pulled out, telling us it was 'pacified' and that we would only be involved in a police operation. Nice to be lied to by your allies, isn't it? The mission needs to be re-assessed, very quickly, and I'm sure that's what is being done by those on the ground. The problem then is how long it will take for the politicos to act upon recommendations. Too long probably, that is a lesson that history keeps on telling the British Army.

By the way, Ragnar. Take a look on the globe, and the USA are more 'on the other side of the world' than the Middle East are to a Brit. In saying this, do you mean that the USA should not have intervened in WWI and WWII, and hence therefore abandon Britain to German rule? I mean, you were 'on the other side of the world and miles and miles away'. But of course it's a special case, isn't it, because you live there. Oh dear. Too bad.

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Originally Posted by Tiberius

By the way, Ragnar. Take a look on the globe, and the USA are more 'on the other side of the world' than the Middle East are to a Brit. In saying this, do you mean that the USA should not have intervened in WWI and WWII, and hence therefore abandon Britain to German rule? I mean, you were 'on the other side of the world and miles and miles away'. But of course it's a special case, isn't it, because you live there. Oh dear. Too bad.

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Yes but We created the USA, without us you would not exsist, so in reality you owe us, and ww2 was completely different as allaince had been made between the us and the uk, and the US was attacked by Japan, an ally of germany, seems like your saying what alot of americans say ' we wont he war no one else helped we saved the world!!!!!11' Wrong. The russians defeated germany not the us they helped yes but the russians contributed alot more than america, so be quiet about WW2.

This is a different matter this is one country nothing like te scale of WW2.:no:

This is one of those times when you can actually blame Bush and be quite righteously right in yourself.

The manpower, focus, and resources were there to actually pacify the damn country and establish some semblance of modernity until somebody decides that Saddam annoys him more and drives that way instead, so yeah. The dead Taliban's back from his grave, alive and kicking, because apparently the corpse was left to be necro-ed back to fight instead of proper burial. :dizzy2:

And did the US troops really pulled out en mass?

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Originally Posted by King Ragnar

Well then i have a black heart im afraid i couldnt care less about people being killed on the other side of the world miles and miles away for no reason none of my buisness, if your gona be like that then we might as well invade India or somewhere else that has things like arranged marriages because thats terrible think of the poor women who are marrying men they have never met.

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Your business - what?

You might believe it doesn't affect your life whatsoever but that's a blind eye looking for the comfort from a lie. What do you think the cheap, mass-produced goods we in the West use everyday come from? Slave-empire Capitalist China. What you think the heroin those druggies use came from? Burma ("Myanmar", yeah right), Afghanistan, Columbia perhaps, and several other hellholes on Earth that "is not your business to care." What do you think those angry, vengeful, fanatical, suicidal souls that declared war on "the West" and want you dead came from? The closed, stark, oppressive societies that comprise of much of the Middle East and a few other places; not your business?

This is one world. Human societies simply make up one human society nowadays. Since the Coalition forces are already in there they could at least get some good out of it all instead of leaving a worse mess than what they started with, eh? "Purifying" the world might seem a titanic task but if little chances give then little chances must be taken to improve the lot of humanity. It's only fair that governments actually do something more useful to the governed than oppress and feed off in an unfair exchange. I'm certain your tax money is better used turning Afghanistan into a decent place (titanic task?) than buying a new private jet for the thousandth MP.

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Originally Posted by King Ragnar

Yes but We created the USA, without us you would not exsist, so in reality you owe us, and ww2 was completely different as allaince had been made between the us and the uk, and the US was attacked by Japan, an ally of germany, seems like your saying what alot of americans say ' we wont he war no one else helped we saved the world!!!!!11' Wrong. The russians defeated germany not the us they helped yes but the russians contributed alot more than america, so be quiet about WW2.

This is a different matter this is one country nothing like te scale of WW2.:no:

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If the Germans didn't attack the USSR and the USA didn't intervene, you guys would have been mincemeat.

Oh, by the way, I'm not an American. But I'll keep in mind to tell any I meet that they should let the Brits save their own skins next time they're threatened. Okay?

About the creation as well: the British was only one of multiple European countries to establish colonies in the USA, and these eventually rebelled against you and defeated you. So, you didn't create the USA. In fact, you fought for the USA not to be created. Learn your history, kiddo.

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Yes but We created the USA, without us you would not exsist, so in reality you owe us,

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Yes, its a little known fact that the west was settled and all major American cutural directions determined by the British?

Ragnar this is embarrassing, matey.

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Originally Posted by Tiberius

Amusing, Ragnar.

The UK are America's best buddies, and they want to remain so. So much of your country depends on the USA, such as nuclear technology, any kind of major international influence (admit it, you're not a superpower) and trade.

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We're the USA's best buddies. Israel gets far more help - where are its troops? America does as it likes internationally. As can be seen the only "influence" we get is a pathetic "me too". We;d have more making our own minds up. Nukes... Great! We've used so many in the UK :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Tiberius

You went into Afghanistan to show your support. Why do you think Mongolia sent a hundred men to support the USA in the Middle East? Just a show of their support and hoping to get into America's good books. You already are in their good books, and want to stay there. You also want to benefit from the oil which was supposed to make you all rich if the attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq went smoothly, which obviously hasn't happened.

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The price of oil has increased since America's attacks. Most if not all contracts in Iraq went to American firms. And frankly it'd be cheaper to give UK companies subsidies than think getting tehse contracts is an end in itself. Make us all rich? Erm, how?

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Originally Posted by Tiberius

As for the human rights issue you've raised up. It is the moral thing to do, is that so difficult to understand? The talk of not valuing any human being's life apart from those of your allies and your country's is, frankly, disgusting. They are humans as well, and as such deserve equal rights.

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ROFLMAO!!! :laugh4: You dare to try the moral card? America does NOTHING in conflicts in so many countries all over the world, then attacks Afghanistan that was working better than it had been for ages and says that it's helping the people? Expressing my feelings on such bare faced hipocracy would probably get me banned, so I'll leave it there. :furious3:

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Originally Posted by Red Peasant

Ahh, it's good to see all the do-gooder liberals ~;) in the UK here bleating about a handful of casualties. Serving men despise whining civilians wringing their hands over what they are doing, because they know that they don't really care.

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[Gasp] Red Pesant making sarcy points!!

I don't give a damn for their lives. Happy now? The Army are our hired killers, and occasionally they get killed. But yes, a clear mission would be nice. Are they part of America's search and destroy (in the name of human rights) or are we building things so the warlords can have something to shoot at when we leave?

~:smoking:

....how much does it take to make the point that I'm not American?

You were supposed to get rich. The plans failed though, and now it's costing a lot more than you bargained for.

Not just nukes, nuclear technology. While you're not using as much as France you are still using them. Anyway, nukes are more of a deterrent than a weapon. I don't see them being used unless another major war occurs.

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Originally Posted by Tiberius

If the Germans didn't attack the USSR and the USA didn't intervene, you guys would have been mincemeat.

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The masses in the USA didn't want to go to war. And indeed Germany declard war on the USA. Intervene??? :inquisitive:

The bottom line is that the UK should never have got into WW2 in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Tiberius

About the creation as well: the British was only one of multiple European countries to establish colonies in the USA, and these eventually rebelled against you and defeated you. So, you didn't create the USA. In fact, you fought for the USA not to be created. Learn your history, kiddo.

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The Americans didn't so much as beat Britian as make Britain decide that fighting was too costly.

Ragnar, nothing wrong with bieng a patriot. Lots wrong with bieng an ignorant patriot.

"Best be silent and people think you know nothing than to speak and for people to know it"

~:smoking: