Re: An American Third Party
I'd support some kind of party which otherwise stayed to the middle of the road, as long as they absolutely refused to take PAC money, special interest money and most especially corporate money and supported a platform to make it illegal for corporations to try and influence the political system in any way. It's one person one vote. Not one person, plus the vote of that person's corporation, club, union, or church. One person, one vote means that the employees/members of a corporation or special interest or whatever have their one vote. They don't then get to increase their vote by having the money of the group/corporation/union/whatever vote again via lobbying. :grin:
I can always wait for the rest of my utopian views. After all, as one wit once said, "It doesn't matter who starts the revolution. It only matters that it has begun. You can always take control of it later." :wink:
Re: An American Third Party
I would swoon and faint with overwhelming joy if a viable third party emerged. I'm really sick of the "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos" mentality of the U.S. political system.
I'm concerned, however, that the emergence of a third party would give an unfair and unnecessary boost to one of the old parties, due to the winner-take-all rules of our republic. If only we had some sort of proportional representation ... I think it was Jon Stewart who said, "The Dems got 48% of the vote, and they've got 2% of the power." That sums up the problem nicely.
Let's say a mildly conservative third party emerges. Let's say it takes 10% of the vote. If 8% of that is taken from the Reublican base, you're going to see the Republicans wiped out of office completely. Whether or not you thing that's a good thing, it's hardly representative.
Here's the Lemur's ultimate centrist platform:
- Smaller government (i.e., no auto-increases for any Federal programs, and a re-examination of every Federal entitlement program). Middle-class entitlements are the single biggest drain on the Government's budget, so all of them need to be pruned, and in some cases eliminated.
- All congressional districts to be re-drawn by independent panels, with a focus on geographic continuity and existing civic borders (county, town, borough, etc.). Congressional seats need to be competitive, not lifelong fiefdoms. Iowa has done a good job on this, so we would use them as the model.
- All fines and punishments for lobbyists to be reduced to a single mandatory sentence: Horsewhipping.
- Corporations will no longer enjoy all of the rights and protections that apply to tax-paying citizens.
- All agricultural and industrial subsidies to be re-examined, and whenever possible eliminated.
- All trade tariffs to be re-examined, and whenever possible eliminated.
- Enforcement of all laws pertaining to punishment of employers who use illegal immigrant labor. (If you hire an illegal, you will face fines and probably jail.) If we choke off the demand, the supply will dwindle. I can't think of anything that would reduce illegal immigration more quickly.
- Re-balance the budget, and begin an aggressive paydown of the national debt. Deficit spending would require a 2/3rds majority in both the House and Senate.
- De-criminalization and taxation of marijuana. (No, I don't smoke, but millions of Americans do, and it does us no good to criminalize large swaths of the productive population. A law that millions break on a daily basis is probably a bad law. Also, I see no point in diverting all of that potential tax revenue into criminal enterprises.)
- Prostitution to be decriminalized, regulated and taxed. See my reasons in the previous point. An additional reason would be that the women and men who traffic in their bodies need to be protected when possible from pimps and madams.
Well, with those last two points I probably lost us the election. Those are my ideas for this morning. Feel free to tell my why they're ridiculous.
Re: An American Third Party
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
- All fines and punishments for lobbyists to be reduced to a single mandatory sentence: Horsewhipping.
- Corporations will no longer enjoy all of the rights and protections that apply to tax-paying citizens.
- All agricultural and industrial subsidies to be re-examined, and whenever possible eliminated.
- All trade tariffs to be re-examined, and whenever possible eliminated.
- Enforcement of all laws pertaining to punishment of employers who use illegal immigrant labor. (If you hire an illegal, you will face fines and probably jail.) If we choke off the demand, the supply will dwindle. I can't think of anything that would reduce illegal immigration more quickly.
- Re-balance the budget, and begin an aggressive paydown of the national debt. Deficit spending would require a 2/3rds majority in both the House and Senate.
- De-criminalization and taxation of marijuana. (No, I don't smoke, but millions of Americans do, and it does us no good to criminalize large swaths of the productive population. A law that millions break on a daily basis is probably a bad law. Also, I see no point in diverting all of that potential tax revenue into criminal enterprises.)
- Prostitution to be decriminalized, regulated and taxed. See my reasons in the previous point. An additional reason would be that the women and men who traffic in their bodies need to be protected when possible from pimps and madams.
Lobbists need to be horsewhipped. But then so do politicians who aid them.
Subsidies are always difficult. Although with the horsewhipping, there'd be a proper investigation.
People who use illegal labour should be punished where it is beyond reasonable doubt that the hirer was aware.
Sorting out the budget would be a great idea. Might I suggest reducing military spending...
Decrimilisation of things that have been done for over 2,000 years is very sensible. And of course the police can also be reassigned. I'd decriminalise other drugs, but of course heavy restrictions on who and where they can be used.
~:smoking:
Re: An American Third Party
I'm not American, so my views are easily discounted.
But I like a lot of your platform, Lemur.
One of the biggest issues facing the US as well as other democracies is corruption and unfair lobbying. I would want to see a single term limit imposed on all politicians except the President who would keep two maximum. Parties would thus have to keep renewing themselves.
In addition, no party could receive any donation of more than 10 dollars from any one individual or business. There would be a base contribution from state coffers. If you are genuinely popular, you could build a financial base.
Oh, and seconded on lobbyists, but add the stocks. They like rotten-to-the-core things, so let the citizenry pelt them with the stuff.
EDIT: Can anyone tell me why Colin Powell doesn't seem minded to stand?
Re: An American Third Party
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
EDIT: Can anyone tell me why Colin Powell doesn't seem minded to stand?
Do you know how much $$$$$ he's raking in from his talks? Why bother with politics when he can drone to sycophants?
~:smoking:
Re: An American Third Party
Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Sorting out the budget would be a great idea. Might I suggest reducing military spending...
Believe it or not, military spending isn't the biggest drain on our budget. It's those &%^$)@! middle-class entitlements that really knock us on our collective behind. Here's a breakdown of the 2007 budget:
Social Security: 21%
Military & Domestic Security: 19%
Nonmilitary discretionary: 18%
Medicare: 14%
Interest on debt: 9%
Medicaid: 7%
"Other": 12%
As you can see, entitlements are a much bigger slice than the military. I'll see if I can dig up a pretty chart, but I'm having a hard time with my Google-fu. Too many of the charts that I've found are skewed to make partisan points.
Re: An American Third Party
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclectic
Many of us are frustrated with the current political status-quo of American two-party politics. Sadly, the closest thing we have had to a real third party candidate was Ross Perot.
I believe you are indeed correct that people are disenfranchised with our government, I know I am. The one thing I think would make it better is if the elected officials actually did what the people want rather than perusing these crazy and seemingly selfish goals. Politicians need to do their job and represent the people. If they did, we wouldn’t need a third party, heck we wouldn’t even need a second party. I am tired of having things done that I do not approve of and get no say in the matter of. We get to benefit from the convenience of a republic but it seems we are constantly plagued by corruption and a blatant refusal to pay attention to what the people want.
If a third party did emerge, they should run on a platform dedicated to representing the people… the majority of the people! I could insert a nice little rant about how our government spends too much time on people and issues that effect such a small % of the people but I wont because it’s Friday and I would like to stay in a good mood. ~D
@ Lemur – I like most of your list. You are right on about the winner takes all situation and about how a 3rd party would probably just steel voters from one side and allow the other to gain power rather than elevate the 3rd party. Didn’t this happen with Teddy Roosevelt and his bull moose party?
Re: An American Third Party
Quote:
I believe that the vast majority of Americans feel disenfranchised by the ultra-liberalism of the Democratic Party core
The American Democratic Party is far more to the right than the British Conservative party - ultra-liberal they are not.
Re: An American Third Party
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Khalifah
The American Democratic Party is far more to the right than the British Conservative party - ultra-liberal they are not.
Everything is relative. One mans liberal is another mans ultra-liberal.
Re: An American Third Party
I think a middle party has the greatest chance of being established in the short term. I don't know about whether coalition governments are allowed in the US, but if they aren't, they should be made so to allow more parties to rise (people who support for instance Republicans more than Democrats would otherwise not dare to vote for an alternative to the Republicans because they would fear the Democrats would win, and vice versa). In the long term, coalitions and a bit more bravery of the voters, would create better diversity I think. If there's still going to be left-wing coalition vs right-wing coalition that's at least better than one left-wing party vs one right-wing party, as during the forming of the coalition the parties agree on in which questions the government should act according to the policy of which part of the coalition, with more to say for those with most voters. I'm not quite sure about which 3rd party would stand the greatest chance of gaining support in the short term but it might be tactical to vote for the third part that seems the strongest for a few elections just to get the percentages up and break the deadlock situation.
Re: An American Third Party
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
EDIT: Can anyone tell me why Colin Powell doesn't seem minded to stand?
He doesn't stirke me as a political animal. Also, he doesn't seem to have the right aides who can navigate Washington. More acclimated to getting things done in the military world than in the civilian political world.
I realize these might be good qualities for some, but in my mind the beating he took from the other cabinet members in the Bush administration showed some flaws. You got to be able to knife fight if you're going to survive in DC. Maybe he was outnumbered, but still he lost some of his luster.
Re: An American Third Party
Because he's too good at his job. Capable people rarely make good politicians.
Re: An American Third Party
Lemur For dictator President!
Re: An American Third Party
McCain? Excuse me while I throw up some organs.
I'd vote for Lieberman over that bill of rights tromping RINO any day.
As for a third party I would want...
Return of the Second Amendment to parity with the other amendments on the Bill of Rights.
Drastic reduction in social programs, and government subsidies to businesses.
Drastic simplification of the tax code, eventually completely eliminating income and property taxes.
Cutting out the many myriad regulations that government imposes on businesses and citizens, mostly throwing out the Wetlands Protection Act.
Short term limits for all politicians. In a nod to Lemur supporters, horsewhipping for corrupt politicians, and elimination of pork barrel projects, cutting federal departments' and politicians personel.
Securing the border and enforcing anti-illegal-immigration laws, no anchor babies.
Voting anti-fraud protection; required photo IDs (Mexico had it, and republican attack dogs didn't spring onto poor voters at voting places), minimal mail voting.
Balance the budget, each and every year. If politicians haven't got the money and try to spend it, we'll take it out of their hide, at the rate of one ton of politician for a dollar.
Drinking age lowered to 18 (if you can join the army and go around the world fighting terrorists with a tank, you can drink beer), and legalization, with regulation, of marijuana.
But that's all just a dream.
I think a viable third party is difficult. Right now the unclaimed ground is the middle, for the most part. That means a lot of compromising, and that would lead to a difficult unity.
Crazed Rabbit
Re: An American Third Party
Colin Powell's political career ended when he allowed the Bushistas to nail him to the wall in an ill-conceived presentation to the U.N. using information which he knew, or to be charitable - later discovered perhaps, to be incorrect. I have no doubt that it was made quite clear to him that his choices were limited, once he did find out the information was bad and that he'd been made a fool and a tool for Bush. He knew quite well what happens to those who resign from the Bush administration in anything other than a "dignified" retirement. They are trashed and vilified and denegrated in the media by Rove's little pack of dogs. And veteran status, no matter how honorable, doesn't stop them from the lies. Look at what happened to former Senator Max Cleland. Man lost both legs and an arm in Vietnam, and yet the Repugs trashed his character in campaign ads, painting him as a terrorist sympathizer.
Powell isn't stupid.
He can't run as a Democrat. The Republicans would trash him viciously, and things that might not be so palatable from his tenure in the State Department would be "leaked" by the Rove machine. And most Democrats would focus on his little speech before the U.N. with the slides and the rhetoric and the blatantly false information.
I think he certainly won't run as a Republican. He's seen the inside of the beast now. As soon as he could, he left. As I pointed out above, he couldn't quit immediately without risking being Swift-boated. So he waited for the end of the term, which was close anyway. Powell isn't talking; but his former chief of staff Lt. Col Wilkerson is talking. And he has lots of interesting things to say. Look him up on the web and read what he has to say that Powell won't say. Considering what Wilkerson is saying, the Republicans won't let Powell anywhere near a ticket spot. :wink:
And he is certainly smart enough to realize that a third party ticket in this two-party system is a losing proposition. No, Powell's career in politics is over. Interestingly, he was hspitalized overnight for what appears to be a bad reaction to food or altitude, at a conference in Aspen. He fell ill while having dinner with Bill Clinton. I seriously doubt he'll ever be seen having with Bush. :grin:
Whle I agree with Lemur about the advantages of a more parliamentary system. I have deep reservations. We're not exactly sane in the USA at the moment, on the whole. I'd worry that any experiment we made into a parliamentary system would look less like Canada or the UK and more like the fiasco of Italian politics for the decades after WWII.
Re: An American Third Party
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aenlic
Colin Powell's political career ended when he allowed the Bushistas to nail him to the wall in an ill-conceived presentation to the U.N. using information which he knew, or to be charitable - later discovered perhaps, to be incorrect. I have no doubt that it was made quite clear to him that his choices were limited, once he did find out the information was bad and that he'd been made a fool and a tool for Bush. He knew quite well what happens to those who resign from the Bush administration in anything other than a "dignified" retirement. They are trashed and vilified and denegrated in the media by Rove's little pack of dogs. And veteran status, no matter how honorable, doesn't stop them from the lies. Look at what happened to former Senator Max Cleland. Man lost both legs and an arm in Vietnam, and yet the Repugs trashed his character in campaign ads, painting him as a terrorist sympathizer.
Powell isn't stupid.
He can't run as a Democrat. The Republicans would trash him viciously, and things that might not be so palatable from his tenure in the State Department would be "leaked" by the Rove machine. And most Democrats would focus on his little speech before the U.N. with the slides and the rhetoric and the blatantly false information.
I think he certainly won't run as a Republican. He's seen the inside of the beast now. As soon as he could, he left. As I pointed out above, he couldn't quit immediately without risking being Swift-boated. So he waited for the end of the term, which was close anyway. Powell isn't talking; but his former chief of staff Lt. Col Wilkerson is talking. And he has lots of interesting things to say. Look him up on the web and read what he has to say that Powell won't say. Considering what Wilkerson is saying, the Republicans won't let Powell anywhere near a ticket spot. :wink:
And he is certainly smart enough to realize that a third party ticket in this two-party system is a losing proposition. No, Powell's career in politics is over. Interestingly, he was hspitalized overnight for what appears to be a bad reaction to food or altitude, at a conference in Aspen. He fell ill while having dinner with Bill Clinton. I seriously doubt he'll ever be seen having with Bush. :grin:
I've seen Wilkerson and Dick Armitage in interviews. Armitage played it fairly close to the vest with comments like "I'll let Colin speak for himself" but he seemed to indicate that there was something to speak about.
I think Powell needed to stand at some point. Demanding that George Tenet be front and center at the UN was kind of an empty move. I suppose he was doing his good soldier routine.
A bit of a shocker that he was having dinner with Clinton. Not that they are idealogical enemies but it is fun all the same.
So Powell gets sick and Ken Lay has a heart attack and dies while in Aspen. Conspiracy!
Re: An American Third Party
I'm pretty sure there's a transcription on the internet of a speech I watched Larry Wilkerson give on C-Span a while back. Let me see if I can find a link to it.
Edit: found it.
Transcript of Wilkerson speech to New America Foundation - .pdf format
audio mp3 of same speech
a wmv of the speech
Interesting stuff. He's a sharp guy. He first joined Powell as his Deputy XO way back in 1989, when Powell was at Army Forces Command in Atlanta. Prior to that he was once executive assistant to the J5 USCINCPAC, taught at the US Naval War College and was Deputy Director and then Director of the US Marine Corps War College at Quantico. Oh, and he's a full colonel (retired). My mistake. (from his State Dept. bio)
