Questions about Konin Hellenon.

I just recently joined the forums and have to start off by thanking the EB team for doing such fantastic job on the mod thus far.

Besides that I was wondering if there is any form of a Spartan Hoplite unit in the game or is the Thorakitai Hoplitai the most powerful infantry unit available to the Greeks?

Also while playing the game random cities suddenly came under my control. I understand that at times cities will defect to your faction yet having a city in Iberia defect to the Konin Hellenon seemed rather strange. Especially since I hadn't even explored the map to that extent. Is this a bug?

The eastern coast of Iberia has greek colonies on it. These colonies start independent (Eleutheroi faction) but they can be conquered by the AI factions. When a city revolts, there's a chance that it will defect to it's "mother faction". In this case, it's the KH, because those colonies are of the greek culture.

Rumour has it there's some Spartan hoplite unit in the works. Apparently, it won't be some sort uber-killing-machine super soldier, but it should still be a pretty decent unit. Worth going through the trouble of recruiting, probably...

So, yeah, for now, Thorakitai Hoplitai are it. Not that that's a bad thing, mind you. It's a gorgeous unit and absolutely spanks-ass, to boot.

Personally, if you ask me, I can live without a Spartan unit if it means shipping .8 out the door earlier; never was too attached to the Spartans.

But, yeah. No way around, as far as I know, rebel cities rebelling back to the faction creators. In the Koinon Hellenon's place, I prefer to think of it as Hellenes overthrowing their brutal oppressors and appealing to the KH for help. Hence you gaining control of that city...

The rebelling cities is probably more appropriate for KH than any other faction in the game. It's quite awesome actually for them I think. They are the only faction that really starts out as a koinon or alliance anyway, but they are just a little different from most. When other greeks appeal to you for help -- other greek cities that are not more makedonian or epeirote or seleukid or ptolemaic or whatever, but are traditional greek cities -- and you suddenly are placed in the position of trying to defend them from their aggressors (which always has happened when one rebels - someone has attacked it and they rebelled and joined you, the other greek cities of this alliance - but some still stay unaligned, as should be). They would be fine without you if they didn't face problems, but under the right circumstances they appeal to you for help and you can either let them sink and fall to whoever was attacking them, or you can send more troops to help, or you can try to keep them alive on their own. All those choices are yours, but they are legitimate and work beautifully in the game I think (personally) for this faction.

And yes, there will be more greek units - especially the spartans, and then the cretan archers too, and I am pretty sure there will be one other unit that is better than all the other current infantry as well, but we haven't shown or talked about that yet, so I'll leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

and I am pretty sure there will be one other unit that is better than all the other current infantry as well, but we haven't shown or talked about that yet, so I'll leave it at that.

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Man, that's some shameless teasing TA ~;) ~D

will we be getting a new bodyguard unit for KH, too? or perhaps some traditional hoplites (along the lines of the heavy hoplitai for the saka?)

and speaking of the KH, is there a reason you chose to put pegasus in the center of the shield. i know that's an odd question, but i was curious. i understand the lions, but not pegasus.

Pegasos was one of the most common symbols on the obverse of coins from Greek cities. My coinage books are in storage (I'm in temporary quarters currently), but it's pretty amazing when you flip through and see city after city that has it on their coins. Not that there weren't other options (I think the head of Athena was high on the list, and of zeus, as well as a couple of other things), but it was really common and it was very recognizable, and once parmenio did our logo for us, we absolutely loved it and were more than happy to keep it.

Like I said, there will be another KH infantry unit from what I've read - though I honestly don't know much about it other than it's a good one. I'm KH faction coordinator, but when it comes to units Urnamma pretty much handles them. I'm more of a history/culture/text coordinator for greek factions and he handles all their unit decisions (well, he heads those unit decision discussions - he's not the unit tyrant as far as I know :grin:).

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Originally Posted by paullus

will we be getting a new bodyguard unit for KH, too? or perhaps some traditional hoplites (along the lines of the heavy hoplitai for the saka?)

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TA previously mentioned that the Spartan unit will also be the new KH bodyguard, although this may change in later builds. A few months ago there was also talk about a classical hoplite unit that would replace the Corinthians (who are currently rather redundant as they are slightly less good as Iphikratean hoplites but cost the same amount).

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

My coinage books are in storage (I'm in temporary quarters currently),

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:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: good one, hah

Glad someone liked one of those for a change.

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

Glad someone liked one of those for a change.

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"Change", I wonder if that was accidental or he mint it?

If accidental, I guess it is just some kind of autonumismatic reflex coming out. Actually, that is a new word, I just coined it then.

Oh man, I'm finding myself laughing at those too. I'm not sure whether to feel dorky or dirty.

:surrender:

No more! Please!

At least in 1.5, units can charge properly.

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Originally Posted by Justiciar

:surrender:

No more! Please!

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I take it you don't like discussing the Koinon Hellenon any further, and that you would like to reverse the direction of this thread? It's not like you're going to die from it or anything though.

Or it could have been the godawful puns. :inquisitive:

I think it would be interesting to have the city-specific units, like Spartans, Cornithians, Creteans and such available right from the very beginning as a low to mid-level unit, just as they would have been at the time and also allowing the player to get the most use out of them during the game as having it be a high-tier unit often handicaps it's use later game when they have to be shuttled around the map for re-training or re-inforcement.

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Originally Posted by Amur_Tiger

I think it would be interesting to have the city-specific units, like Spartans, Cornithians, Creteans and such available right from the very beginning as a low to mid-level unit, just as they would have been at the time and also allowing the player to get the most use out of them during the game as having it be a high-tier unit often handicaps it's use later game when they have to be shuttled around the map for re-training or re-inforcement.

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But it is accurate to have to send them home for retraining, that is the Historical situation for them.

If we see Spartans from turn one, then the Makedonians don't stand a chance.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

But it is accurate to have to send them home for retraining, that is the Historical situation for them.

If we see Spartans from turn one, then the Makedonians don't stand a chance.

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Why's that?? I doubt their archaic phalanx will stand up to the might of the Hetairoi ~D

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But it is accurate to have to send them home for retraining, that is the Historical situation for them.

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I agree completely and wouldn't want that changed but if you're going to make a unit make sure that it still has a time in the game where it's useful otherwise you might as well make some other unit... which is where my point about having these units easier to access comes in.

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If we see Spartans from turn one, then the Makedonians don't stand a chance.

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That's only if we balance the Spartans as a really powerful unit that's capable of leveling armies at a glance, if we portray it instead as a very toughly trained group of fighters that are however equipped and fighting in a rather archaic manner making them less effective then whatever later units are chosen to exist then you'd have something useful. Sort of a medium quality+ unit that's available early on before you've wandered far from your native lands and before you've started to build up the infastructure to make more powerful units.

OK on the subject of Spartans Hoplites...
-It is true, they would have to be sent back to Sparta to be re-trained. Its the only place they were trained Historically. (In Vanilla RTW u could train Spartans in Syracuse, but thats a mistake)

On the Subject of Spartan Hoplite's Strenght.
-One thing has to be kept in mind about the Spartans. During thier Hight in the Classical Greek period they were the best Hoplites of all Greece, and posible the best soldiers in the world, because anywhere else soldiers where not trainned for war per say. (ex: Hoplites were Citizen Soldiers, call to duty in times of war, they where not a proffesional, year-round standing army). But, by the time of 270, and up, many other nations had trainned troops and profesional armies. (ex: The Makedonians, under Philip II, and Alexander)

-With that being said, Spartan Hoplites should not be a GODLY unit that can take on Penzerio (sp) head on, or be able to stand up to a Heriatoi (sp) Wedge charge and loose 2 guys. I am thinking they should have 2 hit-points and be a little tougher than Hypaspistai.

On the Subject of Spartan Generals
-Historically there was a 300 Spartan Royal Guard that marched with the 1 of the Kings in battle (remember Thermopoly). They were the best of all the Spartans. However, there was only one of these units (not 2 or 3). So they should be the KH Factions Leader's Bodyguards.

-Now these guys should be really good, but not a GODLY unit.

(I think with this the KH Faction Leader will be seeing a LOT of action, instead of being chilling in a nice and cozy Villa :laugh4:)

The recruitment of spartiates is not set yet. There are still some things we want to think about, possibly big changes, but they could range from having them only available in sparta, to having them as mercs too maybe with a different skin, to having them in any type1 KH govt (only available where you build a type1 agoge govt and a high MIC), to other possibilities. Some of those decisions might not be made till close to 1.0 though, depending on unit space, other changes, etc. We will have them in 0.8 though, don't worry.

You know I think all this talk of "archaic" fighting styles is somewhat misplaced. If you had an unsupported phalanx of Ipy Hops and the same number of Classical Spartan Hops facing them the Spartiates would make Greek mince meat. The problem isn't in the unit itself, it does its job very well. The problem is in the way that unit can be employed. Its downfall is its lack of flexability.

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

.... We will have them in 0.8 though, don't worry.

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~:cheers: :2thumbsup: OH.... OH... The Spartans are Comming :2thumbsup: ~:cheers:

I don't know what you heard about me
But a Gladius can't get a blood spill out of me
No Hetairoi, no Peltastai, you can't see
That I'm a m*****f***** S-P-A-R-T-A-N

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