Crusade - target province back in catholic hands

Something I do not get :help:

When a crusade starts and when the target provinces is taken-over by anothe catholic faction before it is reached by the crusade it seems that sometimes it is disbanded (with apparently the same loss of influence as for a failed crusade) sometimes it keeps on going and you get a message asking you to hand over the province peacefully when the crusade arrives (if you say yes they ransom your entire army...:wall: )

Is there a reason for this or is it just random ?

Likewise, you are sometimes prohibited to start a crusade for which another crusade is already on its way but it is not uncommon to see an AI faction starting a crusade for the same province as you after you've launched you own crusade ... Same question ... Is there some kind of logical explanation that I would have failed to spot ?

Basically a Crusade is a race to take over a part of the Holy land. If you loose the race, you loose the crusade. Unfortunately you can't just choose to go to a different part of the Holy Land.

I must admit that when crusading I always try to beat rival factions crusade to their target if I think I have a chance. :eyebrows:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jxrc

Something I do not get :help:

When a crusade starts and when the target provinces is taken-over by anothe catholic faction before it is reached by the crusade it seems that sometimes it is disbanded (with apparently the same loss of influence as for a failed crusade) sometimes it keeps on going and you get a message asking you to hand over the province peacefully when the crusade arrives (if you say yes they ransom your entire army...:wall: )

Is there a reason for this or is it just random ?

---

Unfortunately, that's just the way the game mechanic works. If you own a province that's the target for a Crusade, you have two choices:

1.) Turn over the province to the Crusaders, and then pay a big ransom for your army (if you have no neighboring territory for them to retreat to); or
2.) Refuse to turn over the province, fight an often-massive Crusader army, and then be summarily excommunicated. :furious3: It's one of the few things about Crusades that I can't stand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jxrc

Likewise, you are sometimes prohibited to start a crusade for which another crusade is already on its way but it is not uncommon to see an AI faction starting a crusade for the same province as you after you've launched you own crusade ... Same question ... Is there some kind of logical explanation that I would have failed to spot ?

---

No, you're not missing anything, Jxrc. In regards to Crusades, the AI factions receive several advantages over the human player--one of which is that they can launch a Crusade after you do, even if it's headed for the same province.

Many thanks Martok :2thumbsup:

Not a very satisfactory situation but reassuring to know nonetheless.

Since I have sometimes managed to get a AI crusade disbanded, I was wondering if it does not depend on how you conquer the province. Perhaps that if you use only you "regular army" (and nothing else), the AI crusade stops while if you have crusade involved in the process the AI keeps on going ? not sure though ... will check when I get the opportunity

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Martok

In regards to Crusades, the AI factions receive several advantages over the human player--one of which is that they can launch a Crusade after you do, even if it's headed for the same province.

---

Yes, very annoying. Another is that the AI appears to be able to pick its own route to the target, usually coincidentally(!) involving walking through all of your heavily garrisoned provinces and picking up lots of your troops, often repeatedly, whereas as the player you have to follow a pre-selected route, or go by sea. If crusading, always try to have an unbroken sea link to the target, as you can always beat any land-based crusade by zipping over there in one turn! Make sure your crusade is big enough to start with (hire mercs and drop them straight into a crusade, apparently you don't have to pay for them while they're on crusade).
I don't know about your last query Jxrc, I shall check myself. Sometimes the AI crusade vanishes, sometimes not...maybe it has to with how many troops they've got?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jxrc

Since I have sometimes managed to get a AI crusade disbanded, I was wondering if it does not depend on how you conquer the province.

---

If you conquer the province where the Crusade started and destroy the Chapter House, the Crusade is disbanded and the faction ruler it belonged to loses an Influence point. Always fun if you can pull it off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by matteus the inbred

Another is that the AI appears to be able to pick its own route to the target, usually coincidentally(!) involving walking through all of your heavily garrisoned provinces and picking up lots of your troops, often repeatedly, whereas as the player you have to follow a pre-selected route, or go by sea.

---

Verry annoying. This always happens to me around the eastern Turkish/Byzantine provinces. The crusade seems to be en route to go into Lesser Armenia, but then zips into Rum, then gets beaten and heads off on another route, even if it's longer. I make a point of chastising these AI crusades mightily, to the extent that I cannot wait to annoy the pope and provoke some more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jxrc

Since I have sometimes managed to get a AI crusade disbanded, I was wondering if it does not depend on how you conquer the province. Perhaps that if you use only you "regular army" (and nothing else), the AI crusade stops while if you have crusade involved in the process the AI keeps on going ? not sure though ... will check when I get the opportunity

---

You can get the AI crusade disbanded by sending your own crusade to the same province as the AI crusade and getting your's there first. Also if their chapterhouse is destroyed the crusade is gone. Crusades will also disband due to desertion when they finally run out of men.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caravel

You can get the AI crusade disbanded by sending your own crusade to the same province as the AI crusade and getting your's there first.

---

Nope - see Martok's post for how it works.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Martok

Unfortunately, that's just the way the game mechanic works. If you own a province that's the target for a Crusade, you have two choices:

1.) Turn over the province to the Crusaders, and then pay a big ransom for your army (if you have no neighboring territory for them to retreat to); or
2.) Refuse to turn over the province, fight an often-massive Crusader army, and then be summarily excommunicated. It's one of the few things about Crusades that I can't stand.

---

I don't much like it, either, but it does make for "interesting times".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Geezer57

Nope - see Martok's post for how it works.

---

Sorry but I'm not so sure that's how it works. If as a catholic faction you invade and take a province that is the target for another catholic faction's crusade, or your own crusade gains that province, rival crusades for that province will disband. If it was your crusade that was beaten to it's objective then you will see the message about the province being back "in the hands of true catholics", and of the crusade being disbanded. Catholics don't hand over provinces to other catholics due to a crusade. This only occurs where the objective is a rebel province and they believe they can't win.

I know this because I very regularly declare crusades targetted at the same provinces as my rivals, then beat them to the target by sea. Their crusade always disbands, it never continues on it's way until it reaches my province and asks me, another catholic faction, to hand it over.

One of my common strategies as the French or English is to crusade to Palestine, and build a chapter house there. If one of the rival crusading factions decides to send a crusade to tripoli, I immediately declare another one from Palestine and send it straight in with some back up. The AI crusade vanishes never to return, often sparking a civil war in their homelands.

Excommunication is another matter of course.

If for example, you are Novgorod and the French declare a crusade for rebel controlled lithuania, and in the mean time you invade it and take it. When the crusade arrives, you will see a message that the crusaders "explain that they have been "sent by god" asking you to hand over the province. Also vice versa if you were the french in that situation you may see a "hand over the province peacefully" message.

Odd, because I have definitely taken a crusading province objective with a crusade (as the French) and then had another faction's crusade (Italian) turn up and demand I hand it over...perhaps there are other factors at work here, such as if my crusade was declared after theirs but got to the objective first?

Very odd...

If you had become excommunicated after declaring the crusade that may have caused it. I wonder if there are any other factors involved...

Are we playing different versions (v2.01 for me) of the game? Because I don't know how many times, as a Catholic faction, I've taken a province by Crusade in the Holy Land from a Muslim faction, and had another Catholic faction's Crusade march up to the province border and demand I hand it over, or face battle/excom for refusing. Just like in Martok's games.

This game sure is deep - you never know what will turn up!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caravel

Very odd...

If you had become excommunicated after declaring the crusade that may have caused it. I wonder if there are any other factors involved...

---

Nope, not that. I have standard MTW VI, no mods...it is odd. Still, I've been mistaken before, could just be a product of my ageing memory and too much alcohol abuse when I were a lad...! But I am pretty sure about this one.

So what does the 'the province is back in the hands of true catholics, the crusade is now disbanded' (not exact quote) message pertain to? I'm playing MTW/VI 2.01. :dizzy2:

Not sure if I've encountered that...however, I have an HRE campaign on the go right now and it's Crusading time, the French are actively on the Crusade trail too, so I will see if I can bring about a race to the objective.

Well this is all very strange. :inquisitive: My experiences have been identical to that of Geezer57 & matteus the inbred, where an AI Crusade demands I turn over the province. This is even if I'm Catholic, and even if I myself had conquered that province with a prior Crusade.

I certainly can't (and don't) believe Caravel is pulling our collective leg, however. I think there must be some game condition (a condition we players are unwittingly meeting) that triggers the AI Crusade to either disband, or triggers it to not disband and then demand we hand the province over to them. (It almost seems as if CA pulled a prank on us and released two versions of the game. :laugh4: )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by matteus the inbred

...perhaps there are other factors at work here, such as if my crusade was declared after theirs but got to the objective first?

---

This could potentially explain it, but didn't Caravel say that he'd launched Crusades after the other faction(s) had already sent a Crusade towards the same province? Either way, I think further investigation is warranted. I suggest we do some more "research" and see what we can find out. ~;)

Research inconclusive...the turn after I left it saved, everyone, French, Hungarians, Italians, Poles, even the Pope, invaded my about-to-crusade-HRE and crushed it...curses. The French even sent a crusade against me, ironically. Started again with the Sicilians. :furious3:

That's my experience:

I never gain a province from another catholic faction simply asking
to turn it over to me - on the contrary, I was several times asked to hand over my province to Crusaders;

If another Crusade (starting after yours) conquer the province, your Crusade will disband (message:province back in Catholic hands); if you conquer first, the other faction's crusade will keep on marching on target and, when arrived, you'll be asked to hand province over peacefully;
I'm playing MTWVI v. 2.01
I 'd guess it's only a matter of AI advantages.

greets

This week-end findings (playing VI with patch)

• playing as the Sicilian - launched a crusade after the French (who had been excommunicated after launching their own crusade) - manage to get to Antioch first thanks to navy - French Crusade not disbanded and keep on going until it reaches my province of Armenia - Easier to stop it there so I refused passage - Got excommed for not allowing and excommed faction to crusade .... :dizzy2:
• playing as the Sicilian - sent a crusade to Crimea - target owned by rebels, those were not muslim but pagan or jews -they handed over the province peacefully. :inquisitive:

More next week ...

@Jxrc: Wow, that's definitely odd. Very ironic to be excommed by refusing to let another excommed faction to take over the province! ~:rolleyes:

My own experience was more straightforward. I loaded up an old Spanish campaign this weekend, and launched a Crusade to Palestine after the English had already done so. The English Crusade arrived in Palestine three years after I conquered it, requesting I turn over the province to them. I told them no, and was promptly excommunicated (although I defeated the English Crusaders in the ensuing battle).

I then reloaded the same game. I waited until I could see the English Crusade was only two provinces away from Palestine before declaring a Crusade myself. I then had my Crusade just sit there in Leon, not moving. Two years later, I received a message saying that Palestine was safely in Catholic hands, and my Crusade automatically disbanded.

Not that you need it, but thought I'd add my voice to this: my experience is exactly as Martok here has described it. It's always the dastardly Spanish who try to steal my successfully-Crusaded provinces, curse them :furious3: . Although, to be honest, it doesn't really strike me as that unrealistic, even the problem of ransoming back tons of your own ex-Crusaders: think how nigh-impossible it must have been for a medieval ruler half the world away to get back thousands of soldiers once power in Jerusalem had changed hands.

Incidentally, I've come back to MTW after a long RTW/BI stint. Heard about this M2TW, got interested, then decided to try MTW again. Playing the French, Early, GA, Expert, and having a blast with the best TW game ever :2thumbsup: (well, I haven't tried Shogun...) So I'm getting reacquainted with the fun of Crusades all over again!

CountMRVHS

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CountMRVHS

Not that you need it, but thought I'd add my voice to this: my experience is exactly as Martok here has described it. It's always the dastardly Spanish who try to steal my successfully-Crusaded provinces, curse them :furious3: .

---

Well it's a good thing we can't play an online campaign against each other then, because you'd hate my friggin' guts. (The Spanish are my favorite faction, and I often gun for Crusading to the Holy Lands when playing as them.) ~D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CountMRVHS

Incidentally, I've come back to MTW after a long RTW/BI stint. Heard about this M2TW, got interested, then decided to try MTW again. Playing the French, Early, GA, Expert, and having a blast with the best TW game ever :2thumbsup: (well, I haven't tried Shogun...) So I'm getting reacquainted with the fun of Crusades all over again!

---

E-e-e-e-xcellent! Welcome back to the dark side, CountMRVHS. ~:cheers:


(Ironically, I myself am still deeply into my Shogun campaign at the moment. :blush: Clan Takeda is about to be smashed by my fearsome Hojo warriors! :charge: )

I haven't had a chance to test this, as I've been wrapped up in some minor modding lately.

This sounds a little bit worse than 'AI advantage' to me - being confronted with either losing your army or being ex-commed sounds almost like a design flaw or bug!

Fortunately however, there is an alternative - the armies left by your successful crusade could instead (try to) invade a neighbouring province, so that you can at least hand the province to the other crusade and still have your forces withdraw to a neighbouring province.

This brings up another thought - there is no advantage for keeping a province after a crusade is successful, is there? (Aside from the inherent advantages of owning provinces.) So you could capture a province (and any castle present) then lose it the next turn yet still not lose the bonuses of having had a successful crusade? As well as being potentially exploitable, this just seems a little off in terms of both realism and gameplay (having to fight tooth and nail to hold onto that province or risk a major influence loss could be interesting!)

As I said, I've been away from MTW for a bit, but Zild, I think it's not possible to invade another province immediately after an AI faction asks for you to hand over your province to their Crusading army. You get a pop-up message which occurs during the AI's turn, so at that moment you can only click the check (I believe "tick" for you British types?) or "x" button.

Of course, if you meant that you could invade another province several turns *before* the AI Crusade reaches your province, then of course you're right & disregard the above.

The only other advantage you might have to keeping a Crusade province is if, like me, you play GA all the time. There it's not enough to take, say, Palestine once -- you have to hold it until 1205 or so, until that GA goal disappears from your sheet. Don't be fooled by those red "fulfilled" pips on your GA sheet! Once, as the French, I had completed the Krak des Chevaliers objective with plenty of time left, but foolishly built a barbican on my requisite Citadel: the red pips became empty and I lost those points because on the building panel for Tripoli, there was NO CITADEL -- just a barbican. And of course, you can't destroy only the barbican; you end up destroying every core castle-building, from Citadel all the way down to Fort. :wall: *That* experience was burned in my memory, alright.

But I digress.

CountMRVHS

@Zild: Strictly speaking, yes you are correct in that there's no penalty for losing a province once you've successfully conquered with a Crusade--if you're just playing Domination mode, that is. As CountMRVHS already pointed out, it's different when you're playing GA mode. Another thing to keep in mind is that your faction leader is decuted 1 point of Influence for every 2 provinces you lose. So abandoning a province you gained through Crusade isn't necessarily be a big deal, but I still wouldn't make a habit of it. ~;)

@CountMRVHS: Yeah, I too found out the hard way exactly how GA mode works the first time I played....although my mistake was a little more straightforward (and bone-headed). ~:rolleyes: Around 1130, I had launched a successful Crusade to Antioch (I was the Spanish), and then subsequent Crusades to Palesine and Tripoli as well. A few years later, a French Crusade showed up and requested I hand over Antioch to them. Since I'd already taken it and believed--erroneously, of course--that I'd already got the GA points, I did so. Imagine my surprise and anger when 1150 rolled around, only to discover that the French had got the points for Antioch instead of me. :wall: