Well, since the other thread is still on a 24 hour hiatus I will start a new one and maybe a new conversation.
If you were the Pope what would you do?
Apologize? Call for war with Islam? Walk down the streets of Pakistan with a sandwich board that says “Prove me wrong and don’t kill me.”? Hide in the tower? Divert attention by allowing gay marriage? Bend over, drop trow and holler from the balcony “Kiss my crinkle star”? Offer to convert to Islam?
And don’t say kick out all the peepee touchers, it’s already been discussed.
Quote:
The "pope, and all infidels, should know that no Muslim, under any circumstances, can tolerate an insult to the Prophet (Muhammad). ... If the West does not change its stance regarding Islam, it will face severe consequences," it said.
The story
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
By ASIF SHAHZAD, Associated Press Writer
LAHORE, Pakistan - About 1,000 Muslim clerics and religious scholars meeting Thursday in eastern Pakistan demanded the removal of Pope Benedict XVI for making what they called "insulting remarks" against Islam.
Benedict "should be removed from his position immediately for encouraging war and fanning hostility between various faiths" and "making insulting remarks" against Islam, said a joint statement issued by the clerics and scholars at the end of their one-day convention.
The "pope, and all infidels, should know that no Muslim, under any circumstances, can tolerate an insult to the Prophet (Muhammad). ... If the West does not change its stance regarding Islam, it will face severe consequences," it said.
The meeting was organized by the radical Islamic group Jamaat al-Dawat, which runs schools, colleges and medical clinics. In April, Washington put the group on a list of terrorist organizations for its alleged links with militants fighting in the Indian part of Kashmir.
The meeting came after the pope said Sunday he was "deeply sorry" about the reactions to his remarks and that they did not reflect his own opinions.
He said Wednesday that he has "deep respect" for Islam, but he did not offer an apology that was demanded by some Muslim leaders offended by his remarks in Germany last week.
The pope acknowledged that his remarks were open to misinterpretation, but insisted he had not intended to endorse a negative view of Islam.
In Germany, Benedict cited the words of a Byzantine emperor who characterized some of the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad as "evil and inhuman," particularly "his command to spread by the sword the faith."
"This quote unfortunately lent itself to be misunderstood," the pontiff said Wednesday. "In no way did I wish to make my own the words of the medieval emperor. I wished to explain that not religion and violence, but religion and reason go together."
The clerics and religious scholars said they did not regard Benedict's latest comments as an apology.
"The pope has neither accepted his mistake, nor apologized for his words," it said.
The statement also said jihad was not terrorism and that "Islam was not propagated with the sword, but it became popular and was accepted by the oppressed peoples of the world because of its universal values and teachings."
"Jihad is waged to rid an area, state, or the world of oppression, violence, cruelty, and terrorism, and bring peace and relief to the people. History is full of incidents where Muslims waged jihad to provide relief to people of many faiths, especially Jews and Christians," it said.
Pakistan is the world's second most populous country, and its people have held small, peaceful rallies since the publication of pope's remarks about Islam.
09-21-2006, 22:19
sharrukin
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
Tell them;
Repent of your wicked lives, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, or suffer the sword of Christendom.
That would at least give them an actual reason to be upset! Entertaining as well!
09-21-2006, 22:25
rory_20_uk
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
So... a Westener saying something moderately offensive is the causus belli as this means that Muslims are forced to violence :inquisitive: What is this? Are they really that stupid?
I was under the impression that there are passages that state that if people can not be converted by the work then the sword is plan B
~:smoking:
09-21-2006, 22:29
Evil_Maniac From Mars
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
A prime example of the pot calling the kettle black.
(I love these English cliches) :laugh4:
09-21-2006, 22:36
Red Peasant
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
Quote:
Pakistan is the world's second most populous country, and its people have held small, peaceful rallies since the publication of pope's remarks about Islam.
Just about sums up the usefulness of this source for me.
Now let me go and interview some extremist Christian fundies what they think of Islam and what should be done with it. Representative?
09-21-2006, 22:52
Silver Rusher
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
Second most populous country?
Let's see:
1. China - 1,313,844,000
2. India - 1,103,371,000
3. USA - 299,779,731
4. Indonesia - 222,781,000
5. Brazil - 187,104,851 6. Pakistan - 158,130,500
My pedantry meets no bounds. ~;)
09-21-2006, 22:59
Duke of Gloucester
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
Maybe they are only counting the Moslems
09-21-2006, 23:02
AntiochusIII
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Rusher
6. Pakistan - 158,130,500
I never realized Pakistan is that populous. :stupido2:
Ah well, I should've realized it's next to India. And was once a part of India.
On the topic: extremists are everywhere; extremists are fools. And the strengths of foolishness is like that of a dumb guar*: strong and easily manipulated. Pakistan has a lot of groups that will gain something from further increase of religious extremism, no?
And that news certainly is crap. Any average street Joe would recall in a second that it's either China or India that is the most populous, while the same average Joe might skip the USA, Indonesia, or Brazil. But since it claims it's the second largest country with such two obvious choices already above it...
Not that bad journalism isn't bad journalism in the first place, of course, and totally biased at that.
*Morrowind ~;)
09-21-2006, 23:02
Red Peasant
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Gloucester
Maybe they are only counting the Moslems
That's their problem.
09-21-2006, 23:04
Silver Rusher
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Gloucester
Maybe they are only counting the Moslems
If it is only Islam then yes it is the second largest Muslim country in the world (after Indonesia) but as Red Peasant says, that's still a bit of a :no::no:.
09-21-2006, 23:04
Divinus Arma
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
The irony and hypocrisy of it all is simply too much to stand.
I think we'll see an assasination here. Then the world will really take a crap. I can't wait.
Why is the world simply trying to ignore or appease the Islamofascist menace? A grand great war has been brewing under the facade of middle eastern stability. The petty tyrants have oppressed the islamic people for too long, and have created a breeding ground for disenfranchised extremists led by madmen who blame everything on the Jews and the United States.
The war will continue and grow. Open your eyes Europe. You will be the battleground. The angry Islamic populations of France and UK will not tolerate their inferior status for much longer.
And eventually the United States, ever your ally, will bail you out of your self-inflicted predicament once again.
09-21-2006, 23:09
Duke of Gloucester
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
Quote:
The angry Islamic populations of France and UK will not tolerate their inferior status for much longer.
Exactly what "inferior status"?
Quote:
And eventually the United States, ever your ally, will bail you out of your self-inflicted predicament once again.
Only if and when it is in your own self-interest to do so. (Which it won't be because we don't have much oil left)
09-21-2006, 23:16
Red Peasant
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
The ir
The war will continue and grow. Open your eyes Europe. You will be the battleground. The angry Islamic populations of France and UK will not tolerate their inferior status for much longer.
And eventually the United States, ever your ally, will bail you out of your self-inflicted predicament once again.
What inferior status is that then? My Muslim neighbours, some friends, some not, can vote, work, and take a crap just as freely as anyone else.
As for the US, you talk as if it exists outside of history, outside of the affairs of mankind and never does anything out of self-interest. Where do you guys get off on your self-righteousness? It's nauseating sometimes. If the Japs hadn't attacked Pearl Harbour you guys would still be wringing your hands, and counting your profits: blood money from British Tommies.
Once again, the Netherlands surprises. Flying in the face of a centuries-old commitment to freedom of religion, of conscience, and of expression, it is about to prohibit Muslim women from covering their faces in public. Should this legislation pass, and apply to the whole of the public sphere as the Dutch parliament desires, it will constitute one of the most restrictive responses to Islamic clothing both in Europe and beyond.
The French called them Les cités. The ‘ghettos’ are specially built for excluded and disfranchised migrants from France’s former North African colonies - mostly Arabs and Muslims - and other parts of the world. Clustered on the peripheries of France’s big cities, Les cités proved to be laboratories for dissent and resistance against oppression. The children of the immigrants who built France after World War II are being pushed further outside the French society.
'Two countries'
"I've been working with young Muslims and they're angry - really angry and nobody wants to talk about this," he says. "When you go up north and see the conditions, it's like two different countries - and they feel that."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Gloucester
Only if and when it is in your own self-interest to do so. (Which it won't be because we don't have much oil left)
It is so damn sad that you really think this. It really is. Can't I support Europe because we share common values in democracy and freedom? Why does it have to be about oil? Because Michael Moore told you?
09-21-2006, 23:58
Red Peasant
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
Lol!
Who ain't angry in this country!?
You'll have to do better than, "Ooh, my blood's really boiling about this Ethel/Ahmed. When you come 'oop north' it's like a totally different country, the Americans think we are all talk like Dick Van Dyke in Mary Poppins."
:laugh4:
09-22-2006, 00:04
lars573
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
It is so damn sad that you really think this. It really is. Can't I support Europe because we share common values in democracy and freedom? Why does it have to be about oil? Because Michael Moore told you?
It's true though. There was only one man in the US that wanted to fight militarism and fascism in 1939. That man was FDR. He had to manipulate the US into WW2. By forcing the Japanese to attack. You are as a people very self-rightoues. Not to mention patronizing. It's very tiring. :no:
Besides the world isn't ignoring or appeasing Islamofascists. They just aren't using military force against them, or any overt force at all. Unlike in the US european nations voting system is such that the votes of the Northafrican muslims in France, Turks in Germany, and Asian muslims in Britain matter a lot more than the urban islamic vote in the US. They all occupy what would be the lower end working class in those nations. If large numbers of working class jobs still existed in those nations. :dizzy2: They need time to integrate better. Time, the one thing that isn't in great supply.
How long before hispanic immagrents rebel against their infirior status in the US do you think?
09-22-2006, 00:13
Divinus Arma
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
Quote:
Originally Posted by lars573
How long before hispanic immagrents rebel against their infirior status in the US do you think?
The difference is that our "hispanic immigrants" came here in violation of the law. They broke into our country and after having done so, are demanding rights which they are not entitled to. They are not citizens, just as I am not a citizen of the U.K. and do not deserve the protection and benefit of U.K. citizenship.
09-22-2006, 00:28
Seamus Fermanagh
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
Quote:
Originally Posted by lars573
It's true though. There was only one man in the US that wanted to fight militarism and fascism in 1939. That man was FDR. He had to manipulate the US into WW2. By forcing the Japanese to attack. You are as a people very self-rightoues. Not to mention patronizing. It's very tiring. :no:
Actually, FDR was not focused on war with Japan. US public sentiment had been inflamed by Japanese actions in China as well as incidents such as the Panay sinking. FDR thought that the sanctions would limit Japanese efforts, and truly did not expect them to attempt to swallow the entire Western Pacific Rim into their empire. FDR's focus from 1938 on was to limit/counter/defeat Germany, who he viewed as the primary enemy. If you think FDR -- who had put the navy into the war in the Atlantic as early as the Spring of 1941 -- was secretly delighted when Hitler was dumb enough to follow Pearl Harbor with a DoW on the USA, you are probably correct. Otherwise, he would have been hard-pressed to continue to oppose Germany actively -- US sentiment would have demanded a Japan focus instead.
Self-righteous? Probably so. Patronizing? Sometimes. Given our successes we tend to think we have a lot to contribute. You are no doubt correct that many (most?) folks around the world would prefer that we just shut up and go home.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lars573
How long before hispanic immagrents rebel against their infirior status in the US do you think?
It'll be awhile, yet.:laugh4: Though there are those who have "reconquista" as their goal. To be fair with DA, however, he's been pretty clear that he likes his immigration legal and focused on assimilation - not takeover. He is also of the belief that the opportunities presented by the USA are such that almost anyone who is willing to work hard, obey the law, and get educated can make something of themselves -- opportunity tends to mitigate against revolt.
09-22-2006, 00:39
Seamus Fermanagh
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
The irony and hypocrisy of it all is simply too much to stand.
I think we'll see an assasination here. Then the world will really take a crap. I can't wait.
I can wait -- and pray that it will never happen.
I would not, however, envy the current working hours and worry factor of the commander of the Swiss Guard.
09-22-2006, 02:15
Pannonian
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
And eventually the United States, ever your ally, will bail you out of your self-inflicted predicament once again.
No you won't. When you "bailed us out", you made sure to strip us of all our assets to pay for that help, while the last time we had to fight a war for our territory you were mighty reluctant to offer even moral support. The United States looks out for itself, and will only help us if it suits your purpose. Which is fair enough, but don't pretend otherwise.
Look through the post-war experience for a catalogue of how the United States, ever our ally, was constantly undermining Britain in the colonies. Up until mid-1944 FDR viewed the British empire as the next greatest evil, to be dealt with once the Germans and Japanese were finished off. That remained US policy even after Stalin fell from his good books.
09-22-2006, 03:17
Mooks
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
Quote:
The statement also said jihad was not terrorism and that "Islam was not propagated with the sword, but it became popular and was accepted by the oppressed peoples of the world because of its universal values and teachings."
"Jihad is waged to rid an area, state, or the world of oppression, violence, cruelty, and terrorism, and bring peace and relief to the people. History is full of incidents where Muslims waged jihad to provide relief to people of many faiths, especially Jews and Christians," it said.
Bwah...bwahahhaa. Seriosly, if christrians werent peace-loving. Islam wouldnt even make these comments.
09-22-2006, 03:37
Samurai Waki
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
Oh come off it Pannonian, every country is self serving. If the UK could get better trade deals from a different source they'd do it in a heart beat.
Every Country is playing the same game, and every country wants to be the top dog. When America is no longer numero uno, then everyone is going to start hating on China or wherever. The thing is, is that America still has a long ways to go before we get knocked off our pedestal, so deal with it.
And Yes, if the West Still had a very Zealous Christian Population, the middle east would be 3 large craters named New Kansas, Crater 17, and That Place that used to be Saudi Arabia.
09-22-2006, 03:38
Mooks
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakizashi
Oh come off it Pannonian, every country is self serving. If the UK could get better trade deals from a different source they'd do it in a heart beat.
Every Country is playing the same game, and every country wants to be the top dog. When America is no longer numero uno, then everyone is going to start hating on China or wherever. The thing is, is that America still has a long ways to go before we get knocked off our pedestal, so deal with it.
You deserve a medal.
09-22-2006, 05:17
lars573
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
Not long apparently.
The difference is that our "hispanic immigrants" came here in violation of the law. They broke into our country and after having done so, are demanding rights which they are not entitled to. They are not citizens, just as I am not a citizen of the U.K. and do not deserve the protection and benefit of U.K. citizenship.
And you'd be wrong. Many Asians in Britain and North Africans in France came illegally. But they been around long enough to claim citizenship. What call anchor babies aren't exactly unique to the US.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Actually, FDR was not focused on war with Japan. US public sentiment had been inflamed by Japanese actions in China as well as incidents such as the Panay sinking. FDR thought that the sanctions would limit Japanese efforts, and truly did not expect them to attempt to swallow the entire Western Pacific Rim into their empire. FDR's focus from 1938 on was to limit/counter/defeat Germany, who he viewed as the primary enemy. If you think FDR -- who had put the navy into the war in the Atlantic as early as the Spring of 1941 -- was secretly delighted when Hitler was dumb enough to follow Pearl Harbor with a DoW on the USA, you are probably correct. Otherwise, he would have been hard-pressed to continue to oppose Germany actively -- US sentiment would have demanded a Japan focus instead.
FDR was the king of political scheemers, he would have made Machiavelli proud. He loved it, he also loved being an elected leader too. I watch a documentary series about Churchhill, FDR and DeGaulle. You know FDR tried no less than 4 schemes (including luring a Vichy General in Algeria to the allied side) to keep DeGaulle from being the sole leader of the free French? Anyway he was involved in government long enough to know what the Japanese were about. He knew that cutting of their oil would push them to war with the US. Maybe not right away but eventually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Self-righteous? Probably so. Patronizing? Sometimes. Given our successes we tend to think we have a lot to contribute. You are no doubt correct that many (most?) folks around the world would prefer that we just shut up and go home.
You do. Money, technology, good will even. But the patronizing, self rightouness that invariably comes with it is what the rest of us don't want. The British had the same problem when they were in the top spot. *shrug* Maybe it just comes with being a superpower.
09-22-2006, 06:22
Pannonian
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakizashi
Oh come off it Pannonian, every country is self serving. If the UK could get better trade deals from a different source they'd do it in a heart beat.
That's why I said it was fair enough. It's the self-justification and the talk of loyal allies always bailing us out that irritates me. We paid for that help, and the payment was deliberately framed to ensure we would never regain our status as a world power. Add the tech exchange programmes that you reneged on (Tube Alloys being the most prominent, though the other tech "exchanges" also only ever went westwards), and Britain does not owe America anything for WW2. Accept that you made us pay through the nose and some more for the aid, and stop telling us to be grateful for it.
It might tell you something that I actually respect and admire FDR for shafting us thus - he was doing the right thing in enrichening his own country and establishing the basis for its continued dominance in the next 60 years and more. If only we had the same calibre and ruthlessness of leaders.
09-22-2006, 06:32
Pannonian
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
Quote:
Originally Posted by lars573
FDR was the king of political scheemers, he would have made Machiavelli proud. He loved it, he also loved being an elected leader too. I watch a documentary series about Churchhill, FDR and DeGaulle. You know FDR tried no less than 4 schemes (including luring a Vichy General in Algeria to the allied side) to keep DeGaulle from being the sole leader of the free French?
Typically for FDR, when he was finally forced to accept De Gaulle as the leader of the Free French, he embraced him with greater public warmth than Churchill ever did, disguising in the public eye the many stilettos he had embedded in De Gaulle's back with this show of earnest friendship. FDR was definitely the outstanding politician of the 20th century.
09-22-2006, 06:44
Samurai Waki
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
Hehe. Well it wasn't like Churchill was a saint either. Granted, I do agree that the Allies really don't owe us anything, especially because it's been over sixty years since WWII, and nobody but the dwindling Veterans should have any right to say "we bailed you guys out" which none of them have. Its the current generation (especially Generation X) that invented the notion that "we bailed you guys out" mentality, most likely from stories of their parents or grandparents who fought in the war and the sacrifices they made, has for some reason, given them this self-righteous attitude. When in fact the Generation X'ers have given American Society Nothing but a looooooonnnnnnggggg list of problems that the future generations will have to solve. Okay, I take that back, the Generation X'ers gave us an excuse to be lazy.
I don't think, as the world globalizes a little more every day, that too many Young Americans believe we bailed you out. We're more used to the illusion that the US and Allies were all snug bed buddies from the beginning, and the US fought it's war to destroy Nazism, and since then we've been snug bed buddies, and thats the way its always going to be.
Plus England/British Empire/UK has a pretty decent list of ruthless leaders as well. Elizabeth and Victoria come to mind.
09-22-2006, 06:55
lars573
Re: Clerics Demand Pope's Removal
That's the one.
If you learn about FDR's personality he was fully capable of using Japan's need for oil to get the US into WW2. Not that I think less of him for forcing the Japanese into attacking Pearl harbour. His goal was to use WW2 to make the US the new primier world power, taking that spot from Britain without fighting them. In which he succeded. As in the game of kings (or presidents) the price is always paided in blood.
