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Greetings :knight:
I was wondering if anyone knew of any famous sieges that had been broken by the the besieged army throwing caution to the wind and riding out and either routing or destroying the besiegers, the more desperate the seige the better, Off the top of my head I cant think of any, but there must be some surely :inquisitive:
Hmm... Helms Deep? :laugh4:
Yeah most of the time seiges work, and if they fail it's because off another army, but almost never from within town.
But maybe Alkmaar or Leiden in de 80 years war in Holland. (it's Alkmaar isn't it, I'm sure of Leiden)
Wasn't there some siege during the First Crusade when the crusaders charged out of the gates and routed a vast Muslim army with an, according to legend blessed lance found in a Byzantine church at the front?
Almost, except that the Crusaders did not rout the army per ce. Over half the army deserted because the army was a sort of conglameration of various Seljuq petty rulers under the overall command of a guy named Kür Bagha, these subordinate commanders feared that Kür Bagha would become too powerful if he won, thus endangering the realms they had carved out for themselves. When they deserted most of the troops who did not know what was going on thought it was a rout and fled themselves. Many of the Crusaders claim to have seen armoured angels driving away the Turkish forces and thus they were filled with what you fiery fanaticism, the Turkish troops who were not fast enough to get away were mostly slaughtered.
silly me I forgot all about Helms deep :laugh4:
Actually its that kind of seige break out im interested in - minus the orcs and Elves and dwarfs though.
I checked out Alkmaar and Leiden, I could only really find an article about The seige of leiden, interesting but not exactly what i had in mind, for some reason the articles on Alkmaar didnt seem to work but Ill have another go and check it out.
Kur Bagha sounds more like it - How do you pronounce that and how did you get the umlauts?
Cheers guys :2thumbsup: Ill go and see if i can find out more about all of the above
Kür Bagha was the over all commander of the Turkish army, the siege was at Antioch. I would not go as far as saying the Crusaders actually routed the army, they just had damned luck fighting people who didn't have any sense of loyalty to one another, because they didn't trust each other.
I don't really know how to pronounce it, it's a Turkish name and I'm not Turkish and don't speak Turkish either. It's alternatively written as Kerbogha as well.
Sure but I doubt the Crusaders knew that.
Pretty gutsy to come charging out at a percieved stronger army.
That's true, also keeping in mind the fact that they had lost most of their horses and they were starved, I'm sure their motivation did not exactly fall when half of the enemy run away followed by most of the other half.
I do not think they would have beat it however had the subordinate commanders and their armies not deserted the battle, but it would have been pretty hard to not make them do that.
Would Leningrad count?...
I don't think the Soviets counterattacked out of the city then? Or did they?
Didn't the Germans withdraw the besieging forces to use them elsewhere or were they simply destroyed by some Soviet force coming to the rescue?
I know little about this, but I think it's a combination of both, plus the fact that Sovjets would counterattack from somewhere else.
It is an interesting debate about Leningrad...
Leningrad was never truly besieged. It had a lot of 'backland' to grow crops in, not enough, but still a lot. Also the connection with the rest of the SU was never cut. Lake Ladoga was open for transfer of supplies all the the while and on the 18th of January 1943 a landcorridor was opened as well.
But the forcing of the corridor was made by a combination of the Leningrad and Volkhov Fronts. But since we have already discounted lifted sieges with the aid of other armies, Leningrad won't count.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
:laugh4: You stole mine!
Seriously though, I don't think I know of any. Didn't Oda Nubunaga do something like that?
Actually Japanese history is filled with successful sallies, and in typical Japanese fashion there are also plenty of heroically doomed sallies.
For instance the Shimazu were supposed to have sallied from their last castle, knowing that it would never work. But they did it and were honoured by the besiegers afterwards.
Perhaps Belisarius in Rome? Though that wasn't decided by one all-out charge from the city.
Antioch. I heard a version that the "turks" routed because another turkish army was heading their way. they were enemies of Kür Bagha and wanted to defeat him. I also thought it said that from far away it looked like an white army therefore the cristians thought it was an army of Angels
I thought the aztec Capital was succesfully sallied.
Pavia was also succesfully sallied though another army from the outside was needed to be succesful.
Vienna was succesfully sallied, but again an army from the outside was needed.
I believe there are few sallies, if any at all, that would have succeeded without help from the outside
That may be true as well, anyway both versions for the Turkish flight sounds probable...Quote:
they were enemies of Kür Bagha and wanted to defeat him
I don't know to which part of Aztec history you're referring, but when the capital was under siege by the Spanish, didn't they lose it? On the other hand, the Spanish did manage to escape Tenotchiclan, while in a way being under siege in Montezuma's palace, they lost many men though in "La Noche Trista"Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
Stalingrad. Though it was more of victory in the city than a sally out I guess..
Also, about Helm's Deep: it's more dwarf than dwarves, wouldn't you say?
Uh... heard of something called Operation Uranus ? The city was just a bait and a trap to tie the Germans down, since thanks to Adolf's shining genius they were supposed to take the damn thing pretty much no matter the cost despite its rather meager strategic importance (especially as a jungle of blasted ruins). Leave it to crackpot dictators to make really stupid things a prestige issue...
The Soviets, realizing this, were only too happy to keep the Germans there not in the least because the confines of urban warfare negated just about all the advantages the Germans had, while they got ready to demonstrate they too could do that kewl Blitzkrieg thang.
That's not really sallying. They retreated the main forces across a bridge, then rebuilt and re-took the city.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Retreated ? They pulled a textbook double envelopement from the flanks with armies entirely different from the one entertaining the Germans in Stalingrad, and after they beat off the German relief efforts duly proceeded to tighten the noose towards the Volga. The Soviet troops in the city itself moved nowhere before the encirclement was completely sprung and the last German pockets cleared.
I fail to see much sallying or "victory in the city" involved in the proceedings.
They had control of most of the city. There were pockets in houses and factories and such, but the Germans had control of most of the city.Quote:
By the end of August, Army Group South (B) had finally reached the Volga to the north of Stalingrad. Another advance to the river south of the city followed. By September 1, 1942, the Soviets could only reinforce and supply their forces in Stalingrad by perilous crossings of the Volga, under constant bombardment by German artillery and planes.
Amid the debris of the wrecked city, the Soviet 62nd Army anchored their defense lines with strongpoints in houses and factories. Fighting was fierce and desperate. The life expectancy of a newly-arrived Soviet private in the city dropped to less than twenty-four hours.
You're right when you say, the battle was stupid because it had too much to do with pride, but I just have to argue that the Germans did in fact have control of most of Stalingrad before the counter attack.Quote:
Georgy Zhukov, responsible for strategic planning in the Stalingrad area, concentrated massive Soviet forces in the steppes to the north and south of the city.
Which was roughly comparable to taking the curtain wall but floundering before the inner citadel in medieval terms, ergo worth nothing. Besides, after Uranus got rolling it likely wouldn't have mattered much if the Germans had managed to take the whole city at the last minute - they were regardless already trapped.
Anyway, the point is that the Soviets in Stalingrad itself never 'sallied'. The envelopement was conducted far away from the city itself by entirely different armies. Not that they retreated too much either - the ferry over the Volga was very much an one-way trip, and troops sent into the city either died or kept fighting but sure as Hell weren't coming across (given the overwhelming concern the Red Army had for the well-being of its soldiery, odds are they didn't bother evacuating the wounded either). A somewhat extreme case of what Sun Tzu called the "deadly ground" in a way.
If you want to nitpick about it Stalingrad can't really even be properly called a siege to begin with (unlike for example Leningrad), it was rather the WW1 Western Front fought in an urban setting (minus the gas).
Also more elf then elves too. Lousy Kiwi changinh history *looks shifty*Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberius
Battle of Obertyn. Polish cav charged from fortified camp, captured 50 cannons, killed over 7000 Wallachians and forced rest to withdraw.
never heard of... got any more info
Lanky, there were more elf reinforcements... you know those 700 dudes with that commander that got an axe in his back
:no: Those elves weren't there. The only elf present at the battle of Helms Deep was Legolas. The reinforcements were put in by the film makers as an excuse to bring Arwen into the main plot by having her fight. Luckily word got out and they hastily changed that but left the elves in.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
The Battle of Obertyn sounds interesting just, what I was thinking of, any idea how you pronounce that? - Ill have a search and see if I can find any info on it,but if you have any more info then cool. Is/was Cavalry a polish Military speciality?, Ive heard talk of them before. :charge: All of these battles sound interesting but its more this kind of breakout I was thinking about :2thumbsup:
I think as regards to Helms deep, that there was only one Dwarf and one Elf There. In the book, Im sure that its a company of rangers led by Aragorn that turn up instead of elves like in the film, could be wrong it was awhile ago since I read it :book: