The Future... How to best transform new modders into valuable members?

From this thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=70145

How to best transform new modders into valuable members?

The mod community, as all communities, relies on a steady influx of new members. For the modding community, however, young and keen members only become truly valuable after they have developed some of the technical skills needed to become useful modders.

How to best make a useful modder from a new member is an issue that has been around since the very start and it's been one that we've looked to address through tutorials and guide and fora where modding questions can be asked and mods can be developed. However with the release of M2TW there will be an unprecedented new wave of members attracted by the press and publicity of a new game. And some of these will be interested in modding.

Given the presumption that it's good for everyone to have a large number of useful modders and that the quicker they become useful the better - the question is what more can be done to help them (and everyone else) up the learning curve for modding M2TW as quickly as possible?

Very well organized forums - neither too complex nor too broad - plus good moderators plus well-categorized accessible tutorials are probably the most important things to exist. The Org has this down fairly well though perhaps the tutorials need to be more noticeable.

Modders tend to help each other out on forums more when the game is first out but as time goes on the pressures of completing mods increase and the good modders cannot spend so long answering questions etc. So when M2TW comes out I suspect we will see more involvement from the more experienced as well as the stampede of new would-be modders ;)

Experienced modders not hanging around on the fora as much is inevitable, but it is still a concern. To bring along new modders you need a mix of experience on the forums at any one time - otherwise newcomers have to spend time reinventing the wheel.


In terms of categorising tutorials - the Org does have generally good tutes and the ability to organise them. The only problem on that score is the 'gaps' that emerge. Many times have I seen a basic question being asked and thought 'surely there must be a tutorial explaining this' and checked and there wasn't.

I realise that there will always be gaps as people write tutes on their own fields and what personally interests them, but it's also that there's no real acknowledgement that that gap exists in our 'modding library', so to speak. Knowing that a tutorial in your topic doesn't exist, might even spur modders to fill in the holes.

Writing a tutorial can take alot of time and it isnt exactly the most enjoyable thing to do. Especially when you could be getting more work done on your mod instead.

My offer still stands: No experience but interested in RTW modding? Join Hegemonia, I'll make you into an expert in three months by making you do increasingly difficult menial tasks and writing you obsessive amounts of tutorials.

The setup in the Scriptorium with categorised tutorials, etc is excellent. I particularly like how they tend to include links to the research threads and/or more advanaced threads too if you want to chase up the issue further (or have some additional research that you want to add to the topic).

The R:TW Modding forums here have developed quite substantially from when they started. Initially iirc it was just the two sub-forums (what is now 'Modding Questions', and the Forge), which meant that all sorts of discussion and information got mixed up and hard to find. Now whenever I need to find something, it's a lot easier. And it's also easier to keep up-to-date too, as I can better judge which threads I might want to read (because of the seperate sub-forums), rather than having to check out all/most of them.

In my opinion to develop a new modder into a good one instead of a bad one (shame we don't have a Darth Vader smiley) the best way is assigning him a personal tutor.
The best way would be to communicate via chat and/or PMs in an environment where the pupil can ask the tutor anything they like. The tutor should, whenever possible, give quick answers, and if need be, explain it to the unexperienced in easy words ~;)
This of course means a major time commitment for the tutor, so this can only happen inside a mod team and if the elder and potential pupil like each other (because you are more likely to spend time doing stuff for people you are fond of).

In a community-wide point of view, the best way is probably to have as many experienced people around as possible who answer questions (when I was more active I usually tried to check the questions forums at least once every day here and on the TWC), and by having as many tutorials as possible.
What do you think about creating a tutorial request thread for M2TW where, if you discover one of the gaps you mention, you can request that a tutorial is written about it, or it is fitted into another tutorial. If anybody has the time to do that then, they have a number of topics they can write about.
This, of course, requires a number of experienced modders who are interested in sharing their knowledge and have or take the time to do so (I know that this is not easy from personal experience), but as there aren't that many people around who write tutorials at all, I guess you can still find a number of persons who would do that (and if it is only to avoid being asked the same questions over and over again).

I love the mod question forum
I personaly find the scriptorium a little annoying to use
Personaly I think for MTW2 it should be devided up into a few catagories - ie units, scripting, maps, ect.
thats just my 2 1/2 cents though

I would like to be a 'good modder' one day. I learned alot from the tutorials and I get the just of Modding each part of the game because of them. I would like to join a Mod team to try and learn more. A tutor would be good too. Both would work I think.
I think if I joined a Team making a Mod and was able to ask them questions about what they're doing and how they do it, I would end up a good modder, Tutorials are great but Apprenticeship is better I think. (Also Wanting the Darth Vader Smiley :2thumbsup: )

Not entirely sure, apprenticeship / guidance from mod team alone makes anyone good modder, it will probably make you good text 'cruncher' which helps others out, but if you're entirely told how to do things, then you just follow existing paths. There's something to be said for attempting to do things on your own, getting into a huge mess (ok as far as possible with help of tutorials etc), and having to hunt bugs etc., might not actually make you a good modder but it does eventually make you a good bug hunter! Sorry I'm wandering off topic....

However, re:

Quote:

---

the question is what more can be done to help them (and everyone else) up the learning curve for modding M2TW as quickly as possible?

---

there often seems to be knowledge within mod teams that doesn't get shared with community until mod is released - partly understandable, no one wants to stick their neck out and say 'hey this works' until its tested, and sometimes mod may want to keep 'secret weapon' quiet....

But if everyone was a bit more willing to share / value coding improvements, perhaps mods could be as proud of posting 'here is a bit of my new script /edb /strat' etc, as they are currently of 'here's my new unit screen shot'! Other people could then take developments on and also post back comments / improvements.

I would venture to say that the experienced and respected modders are mainly self-taught with only the odd question thrown at other modders along the way.

In all practicality, how can someone lead or be productive on a mod and also fully mentor someone?

Most do not progress because they are not willing to learn and thrash things out in the laboratory of pain and CTDs which is modding - say good bye to your time! ;)

I agree that an environment of trade and communication must be fostered. and it should be modding based.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shifty157

Writing a tutorial can take alot of time and it isnt exactly the most enjoyable thing to do. Especially when you could be getting more work done on your mod instead.

---

That's not really the most positive way of looking at it. Doing a good tutorial can take some time - but take for example the adding new units for beginners tutorial I wrote. I didn't discover anything included there, I was one of hundreds of people who could have written it - it came long after such knowledge was widely known in the community - but it feels good that it's gotten over 13,000 views and that it's still quoted when people ask questions in this area (though it still does have that enums stuff in that I really should remove...) There's a satisfaction in having completed something well that's inherent whether the piece be a mod or a tute.

Tutorials have also changed the face of the modding community - our TCs would be nothing without the tutes on editing buildings, vegetation and skies that have been posted. The field of scripting was barely touched upon before tutes were written for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alpaca

In my opinion to develop a new modder into a good one instead of a bad one (shame we don't have a Darth Vader smiley) the best way is assigning him a personal tutor.
The best way would be to communicate via chat and/or PMs in an environment where the pupil can ask the tutor anything they like. The tutor should, whenever possible, give quick answers, and if need be, explain it to the unexperienced in easy words
This of course means a major time commitment for the tutor, so this can only happen inside a mod team and if the elder and potential pupil like each other (because you are more likely to spend time doing stuff for people you are fond of).

---

Tutor relationships have been tried in the past. I agree mod teams are the easiest forum for them - but still tutors suffer from the fact that they have to invest their time in up front, and then have to rely on the tutored to stick around long enough to make the investment of time worthwhile.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alpaca

What do you think about creating a tutorial request thread for M2TW where, if you discover one of the gaps you mention, you can request that a tutorial is written about it, or it is fitted into another tutorial. If anybody has the time to do that then, they have a number of topics they can write about.

---

I think that's a good idea :thumbsup: as long as it's couched in the right terms then I could be a benefit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thorn Is

I personaly find the scriptorium a little annoying to use
Personaly I think for MTW2 it should be devided up into a few catagories - ie units, scripting, maps, ect.
thats just my 2 1/2 cents though

---

Have you seen the Tutorials database - it seems to do what you want.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Makanyane

Not entirely sure, apprenticeship / guidance from mod team alone makes anyone good modder, it will probably make you good text 'cruncher' which helps others out, but if you're entirely told how to do things, then you just follow existing paths. There's something to be said for attempting to do things on your own, getting into a huge mess (ok as far as possible with help of tutorials etc), and having to hunt bugs etc., might not actually make you a good modder but it does eventually make you a good bug hunter!

---

Actually IMO I would have thought it would be the reverse. Text crunching can be picked up pretty easily from tutorials as it tends to all be logic. But the more 'arts' side of things such as making models and textures, benefit far more from 1 to 1 tutor-like relationships where feedback can be given directly on creations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Makanyane

there often seems to be knowledge within mod teams that doesn't get shared with community until mod is released - partly understandable, no one wants to stick their neck out and say 'hey this works' until its tested, and sometimes mod may want to keep 'secret weapon' quiet....

---

I think that can be true and it can be for a few reasons - the first is that a mod doesn't necessarily want to shout out about the technicalities behind a feature, second it actually takes some effort to explain this properly and then answer people's questions and the third is that sometimes I think sometimes mod team members simply aren't aware of what is generally known in the community - therefore when they make a discovery they're simply not sure whether such a discovery has been made before or not.

Technicalities can normally be reasonably inferred by other modders in that field - for the second and third heads they would both be helped by trying to keep greater links between mod teams and the wider modding community after the first splurge of research is done.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Epistolary Richard

Have you seen the Tutorials database - it seems to do what you want.

---

oh more proof im an idiot :laugh4:
well im learning
not doing much on rtw just learning
hopefully ill be able to do something once mtw2 comes out
the engine looks like very simular

ThornIs
Is all Ideas and no talent :wall:

Quote:

---

But the more 'arts' side of things such as making models and textures, benefit far more from 1 to 1 tutor-like relationships where feedback can be given directly on creations.

---

Ok, I'd agree with that, hadn't been thinking in those terms as I haven't seriously been involved in graphics /3d.

Quote:

---

sometimes mod team members simply aren't aware of what is generally known in the community - therefore when they make a discovery they're simply not sure whether such a discovery has been made before or not.

---

I'm sure that's true, and also discoveries get 'found' discussed in questions etc then lost in depth of threads if no-ones made tutorials - stickies etc. For MTWII does that provide a case for moderators / assigned members being responsible for a sticky / scriptorium section on relevant topic (units, map, ai, etc..) that either compiles or provides links to discoveries discussed elsewhere (and yes I know that would be a pain to maintain - but if we're talking about the optimum solution....)

From my little experience I've learned to mod by asking questions and "copying" others work to adapt them to my point of view, when I strarted my map I had the RTW map opened close to my to see how they did it. For the models I followed tutorials doing exactly at first time and improving the things myself and trying to find my method of working with the tutorial I red.

I think the most difficult part of moding is finding the method to work something, many people give up because they know what they want to do, they've read the tutorials but... how can I work this efficiently without messing me up with all those complicated things ? How can I do a map on in an efficient way without losing time ? how can I code without messing all my stuff ? It's a thing other experienced modders can share without revealing their special stuff, just giving clues to beginner of what to think when coding their units so they'll be able to follow a good way to easily and efficiently work a mod.

I know everybody has it's own method but it's still possible to create posts were every experienced modder talks about it's own method and were new modders can find something that basicly suits them better.

I think I used the term "tutor" a bit too loosely there without thinking about all the connotations :juggle2:
What I meant in fact with it was somebody who a new modder can ask about things when they are stuck (a good example was mentioned by Neon Twilight) or simply don't know how to do something, or just want to discuss an idea before trying it to see if they know a little fact that spoils it all (happened a lot for me when I started, my "tutors" were Adherbal and Dromikaites)
Also, as Myrddraal has mentioned, it would be especially useful for modelling and texturing (but also bug-hunting and scripting in my opinion) because there is a lot you can't learn through tutorials.

About posting scripts or code snippets:
This may be a way to go for some mods, but - I second ER here - it takes a lot of time to present such a feature with code examples instead of just presenting it, and it can only be savoured and commented on by other text modders.
There's also always a consideration of keeping a new feature secret for a bit (i.e. until shortly before the release) so that nobody will use it before you do - especially in areas where you have a lot of very similar mods.
This, of course, is contra-productive for the community, but the point here is that there are sometimes too many similar mods (and sometimes for the wrong reasons).

Quote:

---

Also, as Myrddraal has mentioned, it would be especially useful for modelling and texturing (but also bug-hunting and scripting in my opinion) because there is a lot you can't learn through tutorials.

---

Was it me that said that? :smile: It was ER :wink:

Personally all the work I've done on 3d graphics and textures was also self taught with the help of tutorials, but I can really see how having more personal contact with someone knowledgable would be great.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alpaca

I think I used the term "tutor" a bit too loosely there without thinking about all the connotations :juggle2:
What I meant in fact with it was somebody who a new modder can ask about things when they are stuck (a good example was mentioned by Neon Twilight) or simply don't know how to do something, or just want to discuss an idea before trying it to see if they know a little fact that spoils it all (happened a lot for me when I started, my "tutors" were Adherbal and Dromikaites).

---

Isn't this what the 'Modding Questions' sub-forum does? Gives you access to multiple tutors!

Yep, a discussion thread held open by a tutorial creator - we could use the example of the EDB Guide or the Palm Forests on the Battlemap tutorial/discussion as examples - are great ways of learning (often together!). It is something that is usually beneficial to the "tutor" too as he wants to understand the matter, get a certain result, or even just get the material up and polished.

In the final analysis, good modders need the mettle to become so and all the tutors in the world will not cure laziness, vast incomprehensions of workloads, unfounded idealism, lack of commitment, lack of aptitude for modding, etc., in the would-be modder. That "mettle" will be manifested in the person being largely self-taught.

I have to agree wil Dol Guldur when it comes to making a 'good modder'

I am 100% self taught, with some advice picked up by asking questions on forums. The only resource I have found of use is the basic art of asking a good question so people who know the answers are prompted to reply.

Questions like 'how do I make a model' tend to get abrupt and unhelpful answers. Rightly so! The questioner has clearly not tried to do it, and isn't asking a quiestion worth answering. 'How do I attach my mesh to a bone' or 'how do I make the face look right without using 100's of polygons' are questions that show the asker HAS tried and got stuck. They know what they want to do, and have got to a certain stage and got stopped. That would prompt me to help. A good modder needs to be able to ask good questions to get help. You can't teach it.... but you CAN encourage it!

Now....Apprentices..... been there done it...won't EVER do it again.

In order to properly teach someone to model ( and I have done this more than once ) you have to put in a HUGE amount of time and effort. You have to go through things step by step, write lots of info down, check through their work, and generally try and help them develop not just the basic skills, but to do it in a way that fits with their natural style. There are lots of approaches to modelling, and not all fit with the way peoples minds work. It's very labour intensive.... and most of the 'recognised' modders never needed to go through this.

It also requires a lot of dedication from the pupil. For every peson I taught to model...3 gave up becuase they couldn't make the things they wanted to make before their enthusiasm gave out. They have to take criticism...have to be willing to keep at it .... work with an uncompromising modelling tool ( 3DS Max is NOT for the beginner! ) and be able to master some quite involved techniques before they can produce anything ...let alone a model in game!

If you look, instead, at the text editing side..the tools are simple and easy to master, but there is a lot to play with. Those who master this have done so by tinkering and running the game emdlessly to see what happened. A modder wanting to be any good should be doing this WITHOUT a mentor! Do they think this just 'comes' to a modder in some kin of divine inspiration. Nope. Hard graft. It's not easy...but it can be done and people will help a modder who is trying!

The last thing I would sa would be about a persons ability to judge their own limitations, and the limitaions of the game. This is what seperates those who will succeed form those who will fail. Look no further than those who tried to make WW2 or StarWars mods for RTW. They failed to evaluate the abilties of the game engine, and tried to do things that were doomed from the outset. Working on or for a doomed mod would nver make modders. Only disillusioned ones anyway!

Know what the game CAN do
Know what it CAN'T do
Work out what YOU can do
Work out what you NEED someone to do.

Superb words of advice, Bwian. I utterly agree. Anything we do to "transform" new modders into valuable members will thus be mainly indirect. They must transform themselves, and we must create an environment where that is most likely to happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neon twilight

I think the most difficult part of moding is finding the method to work something, many people give up because they know what they want to do, they've read the tutorials but... how can I work this efficiently without messing me up with all those complicated things ? How can I do a map on in an efficient way without losing time ? how can I code without messing all my stuff ? It's a thing other experienced modders can share without revealing their special stuff, just giving clues to beginner of what to think when coding their units so they'll be able to follow a good way to easily and efficiently work a mod.

I know everybody has it's own method but it's still possible to create posts were every experienced modder talks about it's own method and were new modders can find something that basicly suits them better.

---

I think this is an interesting idea. bdh did something like it with his 'How I make my maps' thread. Some kind of format (perhaps an interview) where a modder specialised in a field talks about their approach - and perhaps links into the tutorials they've found useful - would be of great benefit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dol Guldur

Yep, a discussion thread held open by a tutorial creator - we could use the example of the EDB Guide or the Palm Forests on the Battlemap tutorial/discussion as examples - are great ways of learning (often together!). It is something that is usually beneficial to the "tutor" too as he wants to understand the matter, get a certain result, or even just get the material up and polished.

---

Comprehensive tutorials which are maintained and added to by their authors are certainly the shining examples of shared knowledge that a community can produce. I think many though would baulk at the ongoing commitment that it required, though possibly this can be offset by setting up a research forum that would support a more collaborative approach.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bwian

I am 100% self taught, with some advice picked up by asking questions on forums. The only resource I have found of use is the basic art of asking a good question so people who know the answers are prompted to reply.

---

Good point - a post outlining the principles of asking good questions would be a boon to the M2TW area.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bwian

Know what the game CAN do
Know what it CAN'T do
Work out what YOU can do
Work out what you NEED someone to do.

---

Good point for a mod development guide.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dol Guldur

They must transform themselves, and we must create an environment where that is most likely to happen.

---

I agree that that is the most effective and appropriate objective for the Org to take in supporting the transmission of modding knowledge.


So, to summarise some of the ideas that have come out of this discussion so far:


- A 'principles of asking the right question' post

- A post outlining the best way to develop - or perhaps just how modders themselves have developed

- Categorisation of tutorials in (and promotion of) the Tutorials database

- A tutorial request/tutorial list thread to highlight 'gaps' where tutorials might be desired

- Establishment of research threads that can then be spun off as individual areas grow.

- A modder's approach to modding X interviews/features

- The concept of 1 to 1 feedback has been thrown back and forth by alpaca, Dol Guldur and Bwian with points raised both on its potential benefits and also the inherent problems, with both finding those people dedicated enough to give feedback and also those dedicated enough to learn new skills and who will be able to handle constructive criticism.
One possibility - similar but with a different spin to what Makanyane suggested - might be to encourage people wanting to learn and desiring feedback to post their work in development and it's open for others (maybe a select group, maybe everyone) to respond with feedback and advice about that specific thing. Such responses, though, would have to be made with care as a hostile or belittling response can kill interest as much as being faced with a huge task with no support. We all started somewhere and we all wondered how to get rid of that damned grey peasant unit card.

But what it would achieve would be to place the emphasis on the learner to produce something based on tutorials and so forth before actually looking to more experienced members to provide guidance. And experienced members, not being in a direct one to one situation, would also have flexibility about their own involvement.

An other points that comes in my mind... some people like to create small mods focused on a small region in a certain ERA, instead of creating a brand new team It could be better to help a mod who covers the same ERA (even supercialy and without the same rule the modder wish ect...) but at least something to share and save time and efforts.

Duno if I'm clear enought here is an exemple : Mr Ghengis whants to create a mod focused on mongol invasions, he's ready to create and extended map himself and to model very historical accurate mongols and oh look a MTW historical accuracy mod is planing to include few mongols in thier peice of work too why do not collaborate a little time since both parts can benefiets from the other instead of modeling the same horse archer.

I understand it's sometimes a pleasure to create units yourself but some moders don't whant to spend time on it... more colaboration would be the key ? A great number of conversion for RTW that barely look the same (no offense I know SPQR and Darthmod are very different for exemple) some didn't finish and go total waste of talent and time...

A good exemple of what I mean I Númenor total war mod who uses LOTR movie editon units so they can concentrate on camp map and other things.

A good idea to direct new modders on thier projects is to create a list of mods in developement and thier historical-period (even for fantasy historical based mods such as Blue Lotus) and thier fantasy settings so they can see it and consider joining team based on the historical period they whant, they would be able to train and get enought experience for thier mod.

Thise make lots of mods possible the only problem is, are the team wishing to share thier work with other does concurency means realy something when you make a mod ?

Quote:

---

- A tutorial request/tutorial list thread to highlight 'gaps' where tutorials might be desired

---

This will be abused, just as the Scriptorium has been (more in the past than currently). People will ask questions in that thread, they will ask for tutorials to be written about stuff that's already covered in a tutorial. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just making the point.

There is also the question of whose time gets used for what.

May sound obvious, but the time factor is the killer here. If I, for example, took on a 'rookie' to help with Metal Mayhem, it would probably add a couple of months to the development time. Am I going to do this...no.

I could invest lots of time and teach someone how to mod, only to have them jump ship for their own mod, or to join another more 'exclusive' and community high profile mod.

Additionally... if someone wants to make a Mongol Mod ( using the example above ) but who can't model or make a mongol unit....WHAT ARE THEY MAKING THIS MOD FOR! Learn to model....or make something else! This is where reality has to step in. Their is no point in encouraging people to make a mod that they lack the skills to complete properly. It just can't work this way. How many people have started a mod thread with the immortal words

" I don't know how to mod, but I have this great idea. All I need are modellers, skinners, scripters, map makers and texture artists and I can make this"

If I, for example, were to take the person under my wing and teach them the skills they needed, whose mod is it? I could just as easily kick them in to touch, an make the mod without them.

Personally, I believe a good modder makes themself. They can have their skillset increased by good tutorials and advice....but if they can't make good content ( in whatever field they opt to work in ) then they are not modders. They are dreamers.

Yes, Bwian, you can certainly believe me that the effective use of time is one of my uppermost concerns. As I said in my last post about prospective feedback:

"But what it would achieve would be to place the emphasis on the learner to produce something based on tutorials and so forth before actually looking to more experienced members to provide guidance. And experienced members, not being in a direct one to one situation, would also have flexibility about their own involvement."

Thus new modders will still have to start down the road themselves, albeit with a good map, but know that further along they will be able to stop off an ask directions.

When a modder wants to begin their long and arduous jorney to Modder-dom, the Tuorials section is where they should always start. Most of the basic functions they want to mess with are covered there.

One thing that SHOULD be there, stickied and bold as it can be made, is a list of the tools needed to mad any particular area of the game.

To change models you need:
CAS plugin ( post a link )
3DS Max ( version whatever onwards )

To change skins you need:
Photoshop, GIMP, etc.

To Text edit you need:
Notepad

Then they can go to the Tutorials and look for the basic how-to, and get started. Then, when they get stuck, they can ask questions to get help. This is why I made the point earlier about the un-sung skill of asking a good question. I have seen so many newbies flamed inforums for asking for help in such a way as to appear a complete idiot. They weren't...but the way they asked for help made them appear so.

If they can't get SOMETHING to work from the tutorials, we have to ask oursleves:

1) Are the tutorials clear enough and not full of conflictuing advice or errors
2) Is the modder-to-be so far out of their depth that they have no hope of making it to the surface!

I consider that making it through the Tutorial and actually having the content work is soemthing of a 'rite of passage'. Perhaps we should have a set of standard 'challenges' that sit in the Tutorial section!

So..you want to be a Modder!

Make a cube-man and have it appear in game. Send in a screenshot to prove you did it:inquisitive:

Change the colour of the cloak of the Spartan Hoplite to green ...

Make the unit size smaller and post the code you used to do it.

Then give an award 'Registered Modder' to those that make it.

Or this could just be a cheap way for me to finally get myself an award after all my hard work :shame:

Someone should write a book:

'The Ultimate guide to Rome Total War Modding'

THAT would be a good read.

BTW, I am all up for the 'apprentice' or 'tutor' idea because I learned everything by tutorials and things do get tricky. I did ask tonnes of questions but few of them got good answers.

Sadly, not getting good answers to a lot of questions shows, in all truth, how few experts we have once you get beyond the basics.

For example..... I asked a question about particle effects in BI rather than RTW, since the effects do not seem to work with the BI stucture. Total answers.....2. Only a couple of people had played with these effects and had any luck...or were prepared to offer a suggestion.

I have seen this pattern with most of the specialised areas of mod making, and I think this is a necesary are for concern if anyone is thinking about being a 'tutor' or taking on an apprentice. There may be a rush of volunteers, but there would be a limit to how many people could be taught or coached at any one time.

The other thing I would like to see ( perhaps ER could pop up a stckied post ) would be how many people are actually willing to go to 'modding school'. After all, the discussion of how we would go about improving these people is pointless if there are no volunteers with the necessary willpower and determination to survive the process! What do they want to learn.... do they have the software to use ( and know how to use it to at least a basic level) and aetheywilling to indenture themselves to a master and learn !

Personally...I would have no problem helping someone to put models in game and mess with animations, but would DEFINITELY not teach someone to use Max, 'help' them aquire software, or any such stuff that a tutorial should cover ( if they follow it carefully )