"Terrorists coordinate their plans cloaked in the anonymity of the Internet, as do violent sexual predators prowling chat rooms," Mueller said in a speech at the International Association of Chiefs of Police conference in Boston.
ISP snooping time line
In events that were first reported by CNET News.com, Bush administration officials have said Internet providers must keep track of what Americans are doing online.
June 2005: Justice Department officials quietly propose data retention rules.
December 2005: European Parliament votes for data retention of up to two years.
April 14, 2006: Data retention proposals surface in Colorado and the U.S. Congress.
April 20, 2006: Attorney General Alberto Gonzales says data retention "must be addressed."
April 28, 2006: Rep. Diana DeGette proposes data retention amendment.
May 16, 2006: Rep. James Sensenbrenner drafts data retention legislation--but backs away from it two days later.
May 26, 2006: Gonzales and FBI Director Robert Mueller meet with Internet and telecommunications companies.
June 27, 2006: Rep. Joe Barton, chair of a House committee, calls new child protection legislation "highest priority."
"All too often, we find that before we can catch these offenders, Internet service providers have unwittingly deleted the very records that would help us identify these offenders and protect future victims," Mueller said. "We must find a balance between the legitimate need for privacy and law enforcement's clear need for access."
The speech to the law enforcement group, which approved a resolution on the topic earlier in the day, echoes other calls from Bush administration officials to force private firms to record information about customers. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, for instance, told Congress last month that "this is a national problem that requires federal legislation."
Justice Department officials admit privately that data retention legislation is controversial enough that there wasn't time to ease it through the U.S. Congress before politicians left to campaign for re-election. Instead, the idea is expected to surface in early 2007, and one Democratic politician has already promised legislation.
Law enforcement groups claim that by the time they contact Internet service providers, customers' records may have been deleted in the routine course of business. Industry representatives, however, say that if police respond to tips promptly instead of dawdling, it would be difficult to imagine any investigation that would be imperiled.
It's not clear exactly what a data retention law would require. One proposal would go beyond Internet providers and require registrars, the companies that sell domain names, to maintain records too. And during private meetings with industry officials, FBI and Justice Department representatives have cited the desirability of also forcing search engines to keep logs--a proposal that could gain additional law enforcement support after AOL showed how useful such records could be in investigations.
A representative of the International Association of Chiefs of Police said he was not able to provide a copy of the resolution.
Preservation vs. retention
At the moment, Internet service providers typically discard any log file that's no longer required for business reasons such as network monitoring, fraud prevention or billing disputes. Companies do, however, alter that general rule when contacted by police performing an investigation--a practice called data preservation.
A 1996 federal law called the Electronic Communication Transactional Records Act regulates data preservation. It requires Internet providers to retain any "record" in their possession for 90 days "upon the request of a governmental entity."
Because Internet addresses remain a relatively scarce commodity, ISPs tend to allocate them to customers from a pool based on whether a computer is in use at the time. (Two standard techniques used are the Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol and Point-to-Point Protocol over Ethernet.)
In addition, Internet providers are required by another federal law to report child pornography sightings to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, which is in turn charged with forwarding that report to the appropriate police agency.
When adopting its data retention rules, the European Parliament approved U.K.-backed requirements saying that communications providers in its 25 member countries--several of which had enacted their own data retention laws already--must retain customer data for a minimum of six months and a maximum of two years.
The Europe-wide requirement applies to a wide variety of "traffic" and "location" data, including: the identities of the customers' correspondents; the date, time and duration of phone calls, VoIP (voice over Internet Protocol) calls or e-mail messages; and the location of the device used for the communications. But the "content" of the communications is not supposed to be retained. The rules are expected to take effect in 2008.
Y'all are going REALLY fast to a point where this "privacy" thing is completely obsolete and a thing of the past.
But noooooo, think of the children!
Yet another slippery slope on the path to ... well, you can think for yourselves - or NOT. I suspect there will be those who point out that this is not really anything new, that the ISPs already hold that data for 90 days, so what's the big difference if they keep it a little longer, that this is all necessary to win the war on terror, that it's only temporary, etc.
If one doesn't want to see something, they won't, if it's sticking in their faces.
Now I'll go play with my tinfoil hat, if you'll excuse - while I'm still allowed to do that without Big Brother knowing about it before I even think of it.
10-19-2006, 18:32
Don Corleone
Re: FBI director wants ISPs to track users
Are you suggesting that FBI Director Mueller will use the information gleaned in an inappropriate fashion, Blodrast? Would you kindly enter your MAC address and your current IP address so that the FBI can 'come explain their policies to you'? :boxing:
Hey, they already have this information. Anybody who doesn't think they do is kidding themself. This is a question of having it legally, to be used as evidence in court. Still, yes, we are cruising down the highway into that happy land known as "authoritarian state" faster and faster these days, it would seem.
10-19-2006, 18:59
Samurai Waki
Re: FBI director wants ISPs to track users
Vive Le Revolution!
10-19-2006, 19:24
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
Re: FBI director wants ISPs to track users
lol. I understand why, for Terroism,but Preadotes? lol god man. I'm 14 1/2,15 this March, and I know how these people work. I purposlly read up on what they do, and such, I know every thing they do, and none of the "Yea I know what you mean" type crap won't work with me. Hell, I don't even post ANY pics online, unless it a Game Pic, like from RTW,MTW or BF2 or something.
10-19-2006, 20:06
Ronin
Re: FBI director wants ISPs to track users
the land of the free.....
10-19-2006, 22:54
Xiahou
Re: FBI director wants ISPs to track users
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin
the land of the free.....
You dont think they do it where you live? :inquisitive:
More on topic, I don't think the FBI should be able to force these companies to retain or hand over anything without a warrant- certainly not in a blankey fashion.
10-19-2006, 23:31
Blodrast
Re: FBI director wants ISPs to track users
Look, as I said, I'm perfectly aware that it's already happening. Xiahou, and Don, I agree with you guys - it's already happening, and it's *been* happening for quite some time now. It's the way things are, and I'm more or less used to that. What I have a problem with, is putting it into law.
See, this is how I see things (and perhaps I'm wrong, or paranoid).
There are certain things that would normally never be accepted, or acceptable.
The way to put those into fact is relatively simple:
1. first, you do them all hush-hush, and only rarely.
2. secondly, you start doing them less rarely, up to the point where pretty much everybody knows that it's happening, but nobody admits that officially.
3. thirdly, you put that into a law. At which point there will be no uproar or anything, because, as everybody already knows, it's already been that way for a while now.
There you are - and you have your laws that would have otherwise caused riots if you'd tried to enforce them in one step.
I believe this applies to privacy issues, to torture, and probably other things - but I'm too tired to focus properly right now.
Re torture, what I mean is: look, everybody knows, and has known for a while, that everybody tortures some of the folks they catch. It's a reality, we all know it, but none of the civilized countries admit it openly. Now, with putting it into a law, well, things change - a lot. Especially when all laws contain loopholes, can be exploited, and especially when it's the government you're running against.
Totalitarianism has been set into place by degrees, and mostly small steps. Easiest way to get the sheeple to accept it.
It's the last step when things like this actually get put into law, as opposed to just being a fact of life, where because it's not exactly legal, the enforcers can't afford to abuse it too much. If it's a law, well, that pretty much gives them a free hand to do whatever they want "within the constraints of the law" - and the vaguer, and more blankety the law is, the better....
So Xiahou, this is another good point you're making: sure, keep track of them (I mean, continue to keep track of them), but not for everybody all the time...
And the excuses are *really* laying it too thick - this is to catch the terrorists ?! Puh-leeze, what, all the speech-writers were dead drunk and lying in a ditch when they wrote this ?
edited 'cause I'm too tired to be coherent enough...
10-19-2006, 23:38
Xiahou
Re: FBI director wants ISPs to track users
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blodrast
So Xiahou, this is another good point you're making: sure, keep track of them (I mean, continue to keep track of them), but not for everybody all the time...
And the excuses are *really* laying it too thick - this is to catch the terrorists ?! Puh-leeze, what, all the speech-writers were dead drunk and lying in a ditch when they wrote this ?
edited 'cause I'm too tired to be coherent enough...
I thought the argument was more of the tired old "Think about the children!" approach than terrorism. You know, they need to save everyone's online records for all eternity because someone, somewhere might be a pervert and using the Internet to lure children.
10-20-2006, 00:08
AntiochusIII
Re: FBI director wants ISPs to track users
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
I thought the argument was more of the tired old "Think about the children!" approach than terrorism. You know, they need to save everyone's online records for all eternity because someone, somewhere might be a pervert and using the Internet to lure children.
Honestly, though, if anyone's stupid enough to fall for a real online "relationship" and go on some random, dangerous blind date without actually knowing each other (even phone calls would be better--or webcams, heck; at least you'd recognize the age difference and its implications rather quickly) or at least being full-grown adults, then they have problems. I wouldn't say they deserve it, because nobody does, but it's really stupid nonetheless.
The whole thing's just another attempt to gather as much "information" as possible. Quite frankly, I never understood this pathetic desire for more and more "information" from those in the government at all. They have far more than enough to even deal with effectively and they want more?
Ah well, power corrupts. That's probably how smart and good people turn stupid and become parasites (with expletives added) eventually for being in "high positions" and "important" government jobs for too long.
10-20-2006, 00:42
Papewaio
Re: FBI director wants ISPs to track users
So does anyone want to tell them that you can have virtual MAC addresses...
10-20-2006, 01:00
Blodrast
Re: FBI director wants ISPs to track users
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
I thought the argument was more of the tired old "Think about the children!" approach than terrorism. You know, they need to save everyone's online records for all eternity because someone, somewhere might be a pervert and using the Internet to lure children.
Both, really. Both the children and the terrorists. I think they are both very, very weak reasons.
10-20-2006, 02:13
Ronin
Re: FBI director wants ISPs to track users
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
You dont think they do it where you live? :inquisitive:
on certain aspects ....government incompetence is a wonderfull thing ;)
of course it´s all a matter of degree....but I´m pretty sure that since we have a pretty small and under-funded secret service my government knows a hell of a lot less about my online habits than what your government knows about yours...
now...if my government stated publically that they wanted to keep closer tabs on me I wouldn´t be overly concerned...but I certainly prefer things as they are now...:bow:
