Unit Recognition

(Sorry if this has already been posted)

After playing through the demos a few times, Ive come to a very disturbing conclusion, especially for MP.

I maxed my settings and I still cant tell much difference between the units when zoomed out.. .in fact hardly any difference at all.

In multiplayer, where you cannot pause and zoom in, the nice graphics wont mean very much, its about tactics and strategy. If you cannot see what your units are without scrolling over them, this is no good.

Someone, tell me Im way off with this one... :dizzy2:

IMO you are not way off. I find the 2D sprites to be horrible compared to the STW/MTW engine. Not only are they blurred but some of them dont even have the same color as the 3D graphics they are replacing.


CBR

wasnt that how it was for many medieval generals anyway, impossible to tell who is who once they had entered the fray, and the only unit ID was a banner?

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Originally Posted by anders

wasnt that how it was for many medieval generals anyway, impossible to tell who is who once they had entered the fray, and the only unit ID was a banner?

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I have never encountered a medieval source mentioning blurred 2D sprites :clown:

But yes the command and control in a ancient/medieval battle is no where what we have in a game of course. But I do believe its possible to add some realistic elements other than giving players an eyestrain because of the graphics IMO


CBR

I think Ca realised this, hence the different type of banners for different types of units, so cavalry, generals unit, missiles, heavy infantry and spearmen all have differently shaped and varyingly symboled/patterned banners above them.

Another surprisingly convenient feature is that when you click the general's cricle instead of taking you to the general's unit anymore (a pretty useless feature i found) it now highlights your troops for a second so you can easily discern the battle lines. Your troops are green, enemies are red, and allies are blue. I didnt really care about this feature at first but over time its grown on me. If you use it regularly during a battle (especially a really close one) its a great way of getting an idea for how your battle line is faring.

It's very convenient feature indeed. As i never use banner, it's actually the only way for me to have an overall view of the battle situation. That and as well the use of the mini map.

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Originally Posted by anders

wasnt that how it was for many medieval generals anyway, impossible to tell who is who once they had entered the fray, and the only unit ID was a banner?

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The real general and the PC gamer face two different set of challenge.
1. The real unit on the ground could do stuffs themselves. They have captains who could do tactical things without the general to tell exactly. The gamer must click on the right unit to give orders.

2. The general relies on signals to communicate: He gave orders by either:
- shouting it himself
- have it relay to the unit by messengers
- have flags to signal
- have drums, trumpets, bagpipes, gongs, firecrackers, ralley cries, smoke signals (:)) to relay his orders
The PC gamer has nothing but mouse click.

3. The general can see banners (that's why medieval banners are bright and defending their color is important). He can hear the dieing, smell the blood. The PC gamer could only see blurry sprites.

Anyways, until the day each of us could sit in a 360 degree view simulator, please make the sprites easier to see :)

Anniep

I find it surprising that CA either missed the fact that its very hard to see your troops from zoomed out, or chose to leave it that way!

As I said, in MP theres no pause and very little zooming in. If you cant easily tell what kind of troops are on the field, there are going to be some real issues.

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Originally Posted by anders

wasnt that how it was for many medieval generals anyway, impossible to tell who is who once they had entered the fray, and the only unit ID was a banner?

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Probably, not to mention how difficult it would have been to give commands once a battle started, with helmets blocking ears. However, arguing from realism doesn't apply here, because the player's units have no autonomy -- no sense of self-preservation, or ability to make their own combat decisions like real soldiers would. For example, no real unit of soldiers anchoring one end of a battle line, would fail to turn and face a flanking attempt from the side or rear. But the player's units will just stand there and get slaughtered, if you don't take control. And that means being able to quickly ID your units.

I posted in another thread about how I was having trouble recognizing units from a distance, and I think part of it is the new variations in dress and equipment. In RTW, units showed more as blocks of uniform color at a distance; not so much in M2TW, with all the variation within a unit.

In 20/20 hindsight, I think it might have been a good idea to develop the radar/map a bit more... maybe adding a toggle to expand the map, with icons that actually ID'd the unit type, instead of just simple generic triangles. That would have provided a quick overview of what was going on, then you could either direct units by clicking on the radar/map, or jump back to the full 3D view and control the action there.

Oh well... the graphics engine and unit modeling obviously aren't going to change at this late date, so I guess we'll just have to learn to live with it, and hope we'll get better at recognizing banners.

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Originally Posted by TheImp

It's very convenient feature indeed. As i never use banner, it's actually the only way for me to have an overall view of the battle situation. That and as well the use of the mini map.

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indeed when there a heavy fight and bodies are piled up its very hard to see.The banners do look much nicer this time around tho. if only the units held them...

There is a chance the sprites may be refined somewhat for the final release. They are probably generated from the 3d models anyway, so wouldn't be too hard.

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Originally Posted by ProudNerd

indeed when there a heavy fight and bodies are piled up its very hard to see.The banners do look much nicer this time around tho. if only the units held them...

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Yeah i know this feeling. First time i saw them i thought "wow, they look awesome!" but when i zoomed in and saw it was still like the previous games, hanging up in the air in a non realistic way. I wonder if it would be so hard to make animations where each unit could hold a banner and take it from the floor when the guy appointed to the task was slain on the field.

So still, i will go without them in MTW2.

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Originally Posted by BDC

There is a chance the sprites may be refined somewhat for the final release. They are probably generated from the 3d models anyway, so wouldn't be too hard.

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i don't think so the latest demo is gold meaning its the game that is beign released. So the graphics are probably completely finished. The game is probably already being duplicated for sale.