About the Turks starting position

Does anyone else think that the Turks kind of have it a little to easy? This is assuming that the rebel armies are going to be a joke like they were in RTW, however if you look at the released campaign map closely you can see two things..

1. Poland ALWAYS expands east from what I've seen, and it'd probably be in their best intrest to attack Russia due to they'll be right against each other.

2. This means that you can get like 5-6 provinces right off the bat, and you can expand south until you're met by Egypt, not to mention the 3 rebel towns in your territory

Me and a friend of mine kind of thought this would be a little strong of a start, what do you guys think?

I think it is a good thing to have one faction start at an easier position. It is a bit early to say whether the Turks have it easy or not. If the Byzantines have superior commanders and better troops as they did in MTW, then an easy start for the Turks may not be so easy, especially since this time the Byzantines have less territories to manage and might be able to throw everything at the Turks. We also know little or nothing about the potential strength of Crusades and the Golden Horde (plus the Timurids). I am pointing this out to show that they might be potential threads to the Turks that are not necessarily evident on the campaign map in the first turn.

Yeah, the Turks look like they have it easy from the start but they will get it harder in the late game with the Golden Horde and Timurids.

Like Isbul said, if Byzantium has good commanders it might not be all that easy at the start.

Egypt has an easier start position IMO. That's why I'm going to play them though, alot of choices to make.

Both good points gradually making me feel stupid..but don't the Timurids and the Golden Horde come in later years?

I agree about the easy looking start for the Turks. But the Egyptians start looks like a cakewalk though.

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Originally Posted by Darth Nihilus

I agree about the easy looking start for the Turks. But the Egyptians start looks like a cakewalk though.

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Maybe, but I'll bet the surrounding rebel desert provinces are resource-poor. They'll have Crusaders and the Turks to deal with if they expand into the Holy Lands, since so many factions will have that area as a target. They have distance working against them, if they try to expand to the west and take on the Moors. That's a loooooong supply/reinforcement line. You can cross six provinces in western continental Europe in the time it takes just to move an army across Tripoli. I remember what a pain it was in RTW, to move armies around down there.

It's also a slow expansion and line of reinforcement if they try to jump across the Med with sea invasions. Since the only easy expansion is up across the eastern Med and the Holy Lands, I'm not so sure it's a cakewalk.

Well, it's all just guesswork until we see how the campaign game has been balanced. Number of ports, resources, timing of events like Crusades, Jihads, Mongol invasions etc. will be a big factor in how easy any faction is.

Remember that the second Turks start beating the Byzantines the Pope will Intervene by launching Crusades so it might not be as easy as it looks.

Yeah. Crusades, Mongols, Timurids- doesn't sound easy to me.

I could imagine the pope will care less about the evil orthodox heretics, instead launch a hidden crusade No. 4 against them?

What ever, I hope for a very strong turkish faction in the later game and a good starting position would be nice. The Ottoman empire became a superpower around 1500 and I want to defend vienna against them.:dizzy2:

In MTW (the original, not M2), the Spanish had some rediculously good generals to start with, which made their starting position a lot less difficult than it appeared. No doubt there'll be a bit of that for various factions' startups in M2 too.

Yeah but the Spanish need to have some advantage, they probably have the second ahrdest starting position after the Portugese.

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Originally Posted by Horatius

Remember that the second Turks start beating the Byzantines the Pope will Intervene by launching Crusades so it might not be as easy as it looks.

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I think that depends a lot upon how you play. I, for one, like to bite myself in first; I'd take all the rebel provinces, wait before attacking Byzantine and get ready to do some hardcore defence (:laugh4: ). Doesn't seem so hard then.

I think that, if you always use the same playing style, you'll find some countries really hard and some really easy, but that could easily change for a different style. I reckon that for just about every grand strategy there's a gradient of difficulty in the countries you can choose.

Maybe the Turks will have an easy starting position, but I think that's just historically correct. The position the Turks had was strong. They controlled most of Asia Minor, Damascus, Bagdad, Antioch and Jerusalem. They had connection to the Mediterranian and trade routes to Asia. All means to build a great empire. Which they in fact built.

Jerusalem was under the Egyptian Caliphate not the Turks.

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Originally Posted by Aracnid

Jerusalem was under the Egyptian Caliphate not the Turks.

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Are you sure? I think the Fataimids recaptured Jerusalem from the Seljuks only a few years before the First Crusade arrived there.

I would personally like to see a strong Muslim power in the game, controlling the Holy Lands. Otherwise crusades will be dull. Maybe this is why the Seljuks and the Egyptians have a relatively easier starting position.

I don't think turks have it that easy. My understanding from dev stuff I have read is that the Five starting factions (much like rome) are not just chosen because there catholic and therefore have the pope political aspect but are also chosen because they all not hard to start as. HRE probably being hardest of starting five.

Also yes the turks do run into Egypt later on but I hardly think Egypt will be a push over. :egypt:

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Originally Posted by Horatius

Remember that the second Turks start beating the Byzantines the Pope will Intervene by launching Crusades so it might not be as easy as it looks.

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How could that be possible? Neither the Turks nor the byzantines are catholic. Having said that however, the pope might intervene but i do not believe that he will take sides.

Anyway, good points from everyone and in my opinion the Moors are going to have an easy position. they have all of north africa and the more southern african provinces are all owned by rebels and it's a long way until egypt can reach them or vice versa. Also, these mid, mid-mid north african provinces will probably have terrible resources and bad armies due to bad economy so Moors can easily capture them.

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Originally Posted by Aracnid

Yeah but the Spanish need to have some advantage, they probably have the second ahrdest starting position after the Portugese.

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i dont think the portugese have it that bad, firstly the portugese aren't as close to the Moors as the spanish which is bad due to the fact that the Moors are not catholic and thus enclining them to attack spain as they please while being rather unable to attack the portugese coz they would have to march through spanish lands.

The Spanish are surrounded by portugal,france and the moors while the portugese can only be attacked by the spanish and maybe the french if they own that northern iberian province.

Sun

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Originally Posted by Sun of Chersonesos

How could that be possible? Neither the Turks nor the byzantines are catholic. Having said that however, the pope might intervene but i do not believe that he will take sides.

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If the Turks take a city/castle then that city/castle is a valid target for a crusade so yes the pope might intervene.

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Originally Posted by Sun of Chersonesos

Anyway, good points from everyone and in my opinion the Moors are going to have an easy position. they have all of north africa and the more southern african provinces are all owned by rebels and it's a long way until egypt can reach them or vice versa. Also, these mid, mid-mid north african provinces will probably have terrible resources and bad armies due to bad economy so Moors can easily capture them.
Sun

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Problem with the Moor starting position is that unless they rapidly get some good land (ie. Spain) they'll be thoroughly buggered; no matter how good geographically defended you are, no matter how long it takes to reach you, if you have no cash you're done for, inevitably.

The Turks do have an easy STARTING position, but we all know that what happens in your first few turns/years doesn't define the whole campaign, yes there is potential for very early expansion, but remember that Byzantium have the same space to expand into, Egypt will likely expand from the south and eventually you'll have emerging factions stabbing away at you, not to mention conflict over Jerusalem which is a hotbed of activity as from waht I've seen it is actually one of the more major places to own if you want to win, it seems to be in alot of victory conditions.

Egypt hardly have it easy either, yes there is room for expansion, into lots of vast desert to the West which presents its own problem, you also have the eternal conflict over the Holy Lands with not just the Turkish, but the Crusaders. You too will be affected by the arrival of the Eastern factions onto the map, more so if you have conquered the Hoyl Lands and Asia Minor by that point.

Spain could be said to have an easy start point, certainly so if you repel the Moors in that war and take control of the Iberian penninsula, but they also have that very early, very direct threat from the Moors which could stamp them out, I feel it'll be much like MTWI where the victor in the early war dominate the penninsula and has a very good position to build from. Portugal look quite tough, mostly because attacking would make a Papal warning more likely, but if they do go in quickly and stab Spain in the back whilst they concentrate on the Moors they could grow powerful.

Every faction, imo, has its easy points IF they work a certain way, whilst they also have difficulties. For what its worth, out of them all I believe that its the Scottish who have the hardest task, which few nearby rebel provinces in which to expand and a threat from their stronger Southern neighbours, who in retrospect have the potential to expand on the continent and to move up and sort out the Scots. The Italian states look tough too, as do the HRE.

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Originally Posted by Phalaxar

Problem with the Moor starting position is that unless they rapidly get some good land (ie. Spain) they'll be thoroughly buggered; no matter how good geographically defended you are, no matter how long it takes to reach you, if you have no cash you're done for, inevitably.

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well i suppose that the Moors will establish trade rights with factions and it will be easy to capture all parts of Africa that are on the map. I don't think that's bad economics, even if the rebel african provinces don't have much money.

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Originally Posted by TB666

If the Turks take a city/castle then that city/castle is a valid target for a crusade so yes the pope might intervene.

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Indeed but what im trying to say is that the pope won't take sides since neither turks nor byzant's are catholic. He will obviously just let the faction who took it have it.

Byzan are still christians and are alot better then muslims in his eyes.

The Crusades started because the Byzantiums asked the Pope for help.

The starting position for the Moors isn't that bad. If it's the same as MT:W, there'll be a lot of gold mines in North Africa and they give you a quick return on your money. That'll give you enough economy at the start to conquer richer provinces.

It does look quite easy, will be interesting to see how fast the AI handles it! Will they expand north or look straight to the rich Byz provences? A race against time really, can they build up a big enough empire to stop The Horde and Tirmuids?

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Originally Posted by TB666

If the Turks take a city/castle then that city/castle is a valid target for a crusade so yes the pope might intervene.

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The Cities/Castles around the Turks starting position are already Islamic/Orthodox and therefore targets for Crusades anyway. Theres no reason for Crusades to be specifically targeted against them. Byzantium, Egypt and Novgorod are just as valid targets.

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The Crusades started because the Byzantiums asked the Pope for help.

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It's not as simple as that... If you want to know more I or someone else (if they want to) can ramble on.

Both Turkey and Egypt seem to have very good starting positions. Egypt: Wealth, open spaces, rebels to the west. Turks: Rebels all around them and a powerful army list. But both will be bothered by the Crusades, especially Egypt, and the Turks will likely get hit by both the Mongols and the Timurids if they manage to establish a big Empire.

I believe that I was correct in my reasoning behind the Crusades.

The First Crusade was started after the loss of the Battle of Manzikert, which cost the Byzantine Empire what is now modern Turkey. Alexius I appealed to Pope Urban II for mercenaries to assist in the fight against Muslim advances, and Urban sent a large force not only to protect Byzantium, but to retake Jerusalem. There were other contributing factors of course - the excess of military forces in Europe, the religous zelousness of the period, and other causes - but the actual trigger of the First Crusade was in fact the request for aid from Alexius, and the later Crusades owed their existance to this act.

Does anyone know what the Turkish position (in terms of provinces) in the late period? Does it still push-over rebels to the east?

There's only one starting date for the SP game - no high and late periods, unlike MTW.