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Hey,
Should Lead up to A Good Debate.What your guys Thoughts on Gun Control? Should it be the same,Strict,Less-then-Normal?Should there be a law for how old you can be,just to get a BB gun, or should guns be banned from Everyone,expect for Police and Armed Forces? See No Understanding of why we should banned guns expect for Armed Forces. I save my argument when this thread grows,your thoughts?
Excuse me, but some of us are still busy establishing that John Kerry is a bad person. Please be respectful of this.
Jaysus, young lad, you really do like to let bombs off dontcha...
Everyone knows firearms are completely and utterly unnecessary. If somebody breaks into your house and threatens the lives and/or virtue of your children and wife, simply but politely ask them to stop. If they refuse, offer them a flower. If they still refuse, beg. If they still refuse, call the police, but ask them to come nicely. They'll write you a nice report when they arrive 3 hours henceforth. That should give you enough time to clean up your children and wife to make them presentable for the police when they arrive.
If one inisists on this foolish notion of defending one's family and property, one must be a foul villian that we must shackle immediately.
Translation: even the good Leftys I know think we should ask rapists nicely to stop, but we have no right to defend ourselves from them. Reason #1 why I'll never be a lefty.
A state agency should keep tabs on who keeps firearms, what firearms and their rifling profile of the weapon.
In that case I have no major gripes with firearm ownership. If companies are forced to supply a blueprint of every weapon, bullets at a crime scene can be easily used to narrow down the list guns that were possibly used.
Restricting the actual possession of firearms...that's a bit of a toughy. In the USA there are already so many weapons in circulation that it's a nigh impossible task, let alone disarming the confirmed criminal circuit.
I feel that any to-be owner of a firearm should pass some sort of exam. It doesn't have to be very difficult, just some basics. It could save people, and puts some extra responsibility on the owner should someone get hurt.
Think of the women!Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Of course there's always going to be incidents where innocent people end up getting shot, but we have to remember that there are foul people out there preying on our women. If widespread firearm ownership saves even one woman from getting raped, isn't it worth it?
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Hey, laugh at me all you want Kralizec, there are several fates that I can imagine as being worse than death, one of them being comforting my wife after she was raped while I was forced to watch. Having known more than a few women that have been raped, some forcibly, I'd prefer not to go to that craps table.
If you think it's all a big laugh, bully for you. If you're such an expert on crime prevention, why aren't you putting your knowledge to work and why are you wasting your time posting useless answers to stupid rubes like me? In other words, go piss up a rope.
Gun Control
Using both hands.
And lifting the lid.
And putting it down when you're done.
And washing.
Yeah. That's it.
Yah, sure. While I'm not exactly the recipient meant, I'll assume you have a bad day or something and is a little less sensible than you usually are; no disrespect meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
*sigh*
And I was about to launch myself upon a grand monologue denouncing Teh Evil Guns with a pseudo-Shakespearean Ye Olde Englische soliloquy and a bombastic Sinatra voice. Guess not.
~:cheers:
I appreciate your efforts, Antiochus, but I'm not in need of your diplomatic services. Read Kralizec's post again, with an unbiased eye, then tell me what he meant.
Sounds to me like he thinks it's all fun and jokes. Well, having put a girl sobbing to bed more times than I'd care to count, it's not funny and it's not a joke. Having known one or two girls that had it happen to them in their own homes, I think it's a shame they didn't have a gun handy. But yeah, it's funny. Rapists are funny as all hell. So are those stupid redneck goons that want to shoot everyone.Quote:
Think of the women!
Of course there's always going to be incidents where innocent people end up getting shot, but we have to remember that there are foul people out there preying on our women. If widespread firearm ownership saves even one woman from getting raped, isn't it worth it?
Wait till your cousin, or your sister or your wife asks you why it happened to her. Then wait till she asks what she could have done to have stopped it. Then, here's the real fun one, wait for them to ask you why you didn't stop it.....Then make your Dukes of Hazzard jokes. Till then, Bzzzzt.
And if you want to talk about innocent people getting shot with guns... how many people die every year due to gross medical malpractice like laziness or drunkeness in places like Holland or America. Let's compare numbers, then we'll talk about how dumb all us rednecks are.
In fairness, I think Kralizec's tongue was planted much deeper in his cheek than you imagine, Don-san.
I could be wrong. But that's how it looked to me. Just joining in with the hoopla of your and Lemur's frolic.
If you, Kralizec or Antiochus want to make the point that the answer is to beef up police, maybe make a concerted effort to disarm everyone, criminal and law abider alike, I will respectfully make my argument in dissent.Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
But to make a wisecrack that hey, it doesn't really happen, but if we save even one woman's virtue, isn't it worth shooting a bunch of innocent people... That's so far beyond the pale I don't know where to begin arguing against it except to give it the same amount of respect he gave my views, which was none at all.
I'm glad that life in the Netherlands is bliss. I'm glad that rape and home invasions don't exist. What little time I've spent in Amsterdam, I'd never go back, as the Dutch do seem to have a violent streak towards Americans, even (or you could say especially) ones that refuse to discuss American politics. But let's just say they live in gunless, crimeless paradise. That's not where I live. I don't appreciate being laughingly dismissed, and when I am, I'll give the laugher roughly the same amount of respect he showed me... none at all.
A person should only have the right to own 1 hunting rifle, 1 shotgun. And if you've been a good little boy, a pistol. You sholdn't be allowed to ahve any of these unless you have a clean, or cleaned, criminal record. You shouldn't be allowed to carry them on your person outside your house. And you shouldn't use them to fight an intruder. There are much more effective and less than lethal ways of doing that.
A lot of assumptions thrown around there.
I was making an analogy to the "think of the children!" cliche wich I've seen conservatives use sarcasticly. The point was that far reaching restrictions will have to be measured against the benefits, I haven't seen anybody claim that the prevention of a single sporadic death of a child actually does justify inflicting a boatload of restrictions and red tape on the whole of society. I don't think anybody was laughing about the death of children then, but of course I can never know now.
I'm not convinced that the current gun laws in the US (far more "liberal" then those here) actually prevent a meaningful amount of rapes. I view it as a cliche argument that I never saw statistical support for.
But back to you, this is your idea of discussing it seriously?
Guess I should have known better then to touch upon one of the sacred cows of American conservatism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Why? If I've never done anything illegal with the 5 long guns I own, who the Hades are you to show up and take them away? Now I'll agree with you that a handgun is a poor choice of a defensive weapon, but again, who are you to order people around and tell them how they can defend their lives and how they can't?Quote:
Originally Posted by lars573
DC- I see where you are coming from. Knowing someone who has gotten raped myself, it isn't a laughing or joking matter. I can relate and agree with you.
About guns. Guns should be owned to a responsible extent. There is no need to have an automatic rifle in your house. I also have a problem with handguns, far to easy to concel. Shotguns and rifles, are ok if they are kept on your property. I disagree though about intruders. If someone is breaking into your house, they know full well what they could be getting themselves into, and it is your right to defend yourself the way you deem necessary.
Actually, yes, it was. More than any other issue, my desire to maintain my right to defend myself makes, hell it forces, me to vote Republican, whether I care to or not. Why? At the end of the day, I look at politics as how much intrusion am I going to have to tolerate. This one ranks right up there. I actually would vote Democrat for a number of candidates if they'd just simply say "You have a right to protect your home as you see fit". They can't do it. Until they do, how can I trust them to protect my interests anywhere, if they insist on putting me in a victim class in my own home?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kralizec
Now I don't believe in sacred cows. If you really want to discuss this with me, I will. I'll debate it all night long. But don't laugh at me and talk about how "if we save even one woman's virtue". As I said, if the Netherlands has figured out how to eliminate rape and home invasion, fantastic, we'd love to hear how you've done it, because we haven't yet. Until we do, I'll take my own chances with the thug that breaks my door in.
:grabs beer and steps back, since it looks like the fellas want to fight:
Will just add: have guns. Will shoot. If coming, come loaded.
But I'd rather share a beer or 10.
I'm more of a hard liquor man, but if the beer is good ~:cheers:Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
I'm not trying to fight. I respect Kralizec and I usually respect his opinions. If somebody I didn't respect had wandered in and spouted off about crazy Americans and their guns, it wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the reaction out of me.
But Kralizec seems like a reasonable fellow to me. And yet, in his eyes, apparently I'm a redneck rube because I choose to defend my own home. I'm to be the butt of jokes. Fair enough, I dish it out at times, I can take it. I hold no long term ill will towards the guy, but I'm not going to sit quiet in the corner while he runs me down either.
Here's to your beer or two, or ten. And hell, Kralizec, you've got enough chutzpah to speak your peace, I'll raise a glass to you too. I simply ask that you stop dismissing me as a simpleton and consider that perhaps not all the world exists as harmoniously as it does in your little hamlet. Cheers.
~:cheers:
Cuz yer young, so likker = kwicker. Beer allows some moderation for an old fart... but I keep some of that devil rum around for you young'uns, out of respect for your needs. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice
Oh, and on-topik: booze & firearms = bad.
I wasn't deliberately suggesting any of that, and I personally don't see how my actual post does. But that could be me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Ah crap, now I gotta go back and re-read. I missed that the first time.Quote:
And yet, in his eyes, apparently I'm a redneck rube because I choose to defend my own home
Having 1 rifle means you like to hunt. 5 means your trouble waiting for a place to happen. In this hypothetical I'm the federal government, who else can make gun control laws. The only body authorized to make gun control, as well as criminal, laws. Also I have the power to tell you how you can defend yourself in your own home.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
I guess I mistook your response of "if it saves one innocent woman" line. It is entirely possible that I read more into it than you intended. If that is the case, then I humbly apologize. Now drink up, your beer is getting warm.
~:cheers:
Look, I can understand how from a European perspective, my argument seems like a red herring. I bet home invasions are unheard of in the Netherlands. But I live in New Hampshire, a very low crime rate area for the USA, and there were 3 home invasions within driving distance (30 miles) of my house within the past week. Add to that how much I travel, and yes, I do worry a lot about it. I personally don't think I'm being paranoid, but perhaps you do. I am all ears on your alternate suggestions as to what my wife and I should do to keep our happy home safe and sound, especially when I'm in China for 2 weeks next time I go.
Uh, sorry Lars, no bear-baiting allowed. :no:Quote:
Originally Posted by lars573
But to answer the first sentance, that actually made some sense... do you shoot at all? When I hunt deer in low brush, I want a 30/30. If I'm in the open field, I'd prefer a .306. If I'm going for varmits in my garden, I'd prefer a 0.22. Why do you feel a need to force to a choice of one? You don't force me to own one chainsaw, and they're much more dangerous....
A .22 for garden pests! :inquisitive: :laugh4: Overkill much? All you need for that is a pellet gun or a BB gun. Why force you to one. Easy you only think you need a 30/30 for one type and a .306. Using one or the other would work fine. You might miss more but it's hunting not killing. Besides if you were a real hunter you'd be out there with a recurve self-bow.
Were I real hunter, you're absolutely right. But I'm an opportunist. Where I live, there's so many deer, one gets into a traffic incident, pretty much every night. My local area is lousy with them. All this meat, and I'm just going to play Cochise, watching them walk by while they avoid my bow? No. I'm going to shoot a couple and spare a trip to the meat aisle of the grocery market. I'm funny like that, I actually will make the effort to go get my own meat, save a little money in the process. If you prefer to pay somebody to go kill a hormone addled cow for you, good on you.
No problem. Home invasions are not unheard of but less of an issue here and I rarely hear about them in my vicinity (then again I don't pay much attention to it) Personal safety (in general) in daily life was a big politcal issue the last couple of years but seems to be dying down now. I vaguely recall a study a couple of months back that the murder and violence rate had in fact been consistently (but slowly) dropping since the 1990's in fact, so I personally think it was just mass hysteria stirred up by politicians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Thanks for the beer, but I can't. Sigh...duty calls :whip:
More importantly, Lars, why haven't you bothered to attempt to consript how many cars I drive, or how many construction projects I run? According to New Hampshire's latest data, each of these high risk area killed more people than gun accidents. Oh yes, of course.... criminals don't go to construction sites. Now what you're saying makes sense....
Maybe you haven't heard about the SNiVeL defense?Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Quote:
Do The SNiVeL:
*
Step 1: "S" is for Safe - Assume a safe, fetal position, preferably under a table or other cover.
*
Step 2: "N" & "V" are for Non-Violent - Remember, remain non-violent. Moves that could be interpreted as 'self-defense' may only serve to further provoke your assailant. Offer no resistance.
*
Step 3: "L" is for Limp - Remain limp while begging and groveling for your life!!! This is no time for pride or courage, so cry like a girl, you fool!!! This will always serve you better than a firearm, which would only inject more violence into the situation. Finally, stay limp until your assailant has finished beating you like a rented mule. He will eventually tire from pummeling you mercilessly and choose to move on to a more entertaining endeavor, such as beating your spouse and/or children.