Open borders, one and all

With the House and Senate in Democratic control, President Bush will have to do some compromising in the next 2 years to accomplish a bowel maneuver, let alone implementing policy. So, he's going to have to give some to get anything done. What are to be the most likely 'first gifts' brought to the Democrats? The minimum wage and an end to immigration reform. Translation, as of tomorrow morning, our border with Mexico will be wide open..... but keep those oil subsidies in place, please....:dizzy2:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As control of the House moves to the Democrats, Bush said immigration and minimum wage measures were areas of common ground to discuss when he meets Democratic speaker-to-be Nancy Pelosi Thursday.

"We can work together over the next two years," the president said.

But he added: "She's not going to abandon her principles, and I'm not going to abandon mine. But I do believe we have an opportunity to find some common ground to move forward on."

Of all the issues to compromise on, domestic security should not be the first one coughed up. Oh well, come on in Al Queda.

Not all the dems previous to the election nor all the dems after the election approve of Bush and Pelosis amnesty plan. the problem therein lies to how much pressure the party will put on the more conservative dems to comply, i.e. "don't make us pull a lieberman on you."

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

What are to be the most likely 'first gifts' brought to the Democrats?

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[failed joke]Drapes![/failed joke]

Quicker way to remove drug trafficking and illegal immigration is to cut off the end users... drug users and businesses respectively.

Fine the businesses/ seize their assets. This will add a couple of million to get rid of the deficit. The larger impact would be there would be less of an attraction for illegal immigrants as the available job market would shrink, stage two of helping the money drain would be towards government funds that go on illegal immigrants... everything from stopping them, sending them back and looking after them... less people means less costs.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Quicker way to remove drug trafficking and illegal immigration is to cut off the end users... drug users and businesses respectively.

Fine the businesses/ seize their assets. This will add a couple of million to get rid of the deficit. The larger impact would be there would be less of an attraction for illegal immigrants as the available job market would shrink, stage two of helping the money drain would be towards government funds that go on illegal immigrants... everything from stopping them, sending them back and looking after them... less people means less costs.

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You don't get it, do you Pape? Every Mexican gang that wants to come across the border, raping and pillaging the Southwest, then flee back under a cover of amnesty will be free to. And our Middle Eastern friends? Mexico lets them in, then they take the scenic route to LA, up the coast.

And what's the principal Washington is standing on to open the border to Mexico? Cheap labor and more votes.

Well if that's your stance why not get rid of Texas? :clown:

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

[failed joke]Drapes![/failed joke]

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haha

Simple. A nation with a closed border is a closed nation. USA is suppose to be a free nation. A free and open nation. We cannot sacrifice our rights out of fear. Too many people have done that before and it has caused nothing but disaster.

Such a bland issue. What qualifies as an "open" border? What qualifies as a "closed" border? Surely pressing against illegal immigration isn't a bad thing? You are breaking the law if you enter illegally, so you should be subject to it.

Funny, I live in south California and the raping and pillaging by gangs in General has been happening LOOONG before the Mexicans ever came across the border.

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Originally Posted by vizigothe

Simple. A nation with a closed border is a closed nation. USA is suppose to be a free nation. A free and open nation. We cannot sacrifice our rights out of fear. Too many people have done that before and it has caused nothing but disaster.

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I think "open border" means something different here.

Namely, the freely open passage for citizens of two different countries to cross with virtually no administrative oversight. It can prove to be quite problematic as in the case with the USA-Mexico border. It isn't half as problematic with the USA-Canada border, or the countries within the EU.

The alternative that most sensible people argue for is not a closed border Berlin Wall style (though the stupid Congress did vote in a Berlin Wall...that they did not intend to build), but merely a controlled border. Their arguments rely on the principle of National Sovereignty.

As for me, let's just say the movie "Crash" has an interesting thing to say about people in general.

I do agree that we should've made Immigration Stations like we did with Ellis and Angel Island, along the border of Mexico. Granted, we only turned about 1% of Immigrants back at the time, but that roughly equates to some 30,000 people.

Damn, the mexicans ruined their country and now the dems are wanting to let them ruin ours? :furious3:

There is a reason the Standard of Living in America is so much better than that of Mexico - a lack of mexicans! They are now the largest minority in the country. Dont we have enough??

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We cannot sacrifice our rights out of fear.

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I don't see how having millions of unskilled workers rush our borders, lower our wages, and leech off our welfare systems have anything to do with a right.

And besides, we have at worst 49 senate seats. Filibuster anyone? The dems shouldn't complain, as they've been saying its tantamount to a constitutional right.

CR

I'm always surprised that Americans (who are mostly so proud of their immigrant ancestors) always seem so hostile to more people trying to get in...

Proud, yes. But do you see them wanting more of them coming accross?

And look at how the Americans viewed this first wave of migrants... Oh, they're in reserves and were almost wiped out.

China will lower your wages as soon as they decide to stop buying their own goods back (they're sitting on reserves of 1 TRILLION dollars). You might like to make something yourself in the meantime.

Oh, and if you think that border controls can be sufficient to prevent a determined al Quaeida... well, it's very naive.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Proud, yes. But do you see them wanting more of them coming accross?

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your missing the arguement on immigrantion. Come across within the scope of the current system - I am all for the individual wanting to come to the United States to make his/her life better. Come across outside the system, illegal, while I understand their desire to improve their lives, by law they must return to their country of origin.

So you have missed the point rory your lumping illegal and legal immigrantion together and setting yourself up for a false arguement.

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And look at how the Americans viewed this first wave of migrants... Oh, they're in reserves and were almost wiped out.

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not even close to what the majority thinks about illegal immigrantion.

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China will lower your wages as soon as they decide to stop buying their own goods back (they're sitting on reserves of 1 TRILLION dollars). You might like to make something yourself in the meantime.

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Remember two can play that game. The United States could decide to impose trade tariffs on Chinese goods, which would increase the potenial for the goods to be made elsewhere to include the United States. China understands this as well as the rest of the world.

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Oh, and if you think that border controls can be sufficient to prevent a determined al Quaeida... well, it's very naive.

~:smoking:

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And a lack of border controls does what?

This what I hoped wasn't going to happen. Come on In Mexcians, come on in Gangs.. I bet you, when there is a next terroist attack on the US, then they Might bulit a actually good Fence. Don't know how a Fence helps anyhow. Razor wire,sure. But just Wear Really thick Boots,Jeans, and gets couple thick stuff and climb on over....

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

And besides, we have at worst 49 senate seats. Filibuster anyone? The dems shouldn't complain, as they've been saying its tantamount to a constitutional right.

CR

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The GOP Senate almost killed the filibuster in 2005. That would have been quite ironic....

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Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888

This what I hoped wasn't going to happen. Come on In Mexcians, come on in Gangs.. I bet you, when there is a next terroist attack on the US, then they Might bulit a actually good Fence. Don't know how a Fence helps anyhow. Razor wire,sure. But just Wear Really thick Boots,Jeans, and gets couple thick stuff and climb on over....

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Evidence does not support this postion yet? In fact the Republican adminstrations of the past (to include this President Bush) have been very neglectful of the border and immigrantion

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Originally Posted by Prince of the Poodles

Damn, the mexicans ruined their country and now the dems are wanting to let them ruin ours? :furious3:

There is a reason the Standard of Living in America is so much better than that of Mexico - a lack of mexicans!

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You can hardly blame the mexicans for the state of mexico, its a naturally poor country, eith bad weather etc. + when a country starts going bad, its hard to avoid getting caught in a downwards spiral - My history isn't very good, but i think America occupied some of the best bits of mexico when it was created...
+ If there are so many mexicans in America then why is the standard of living still far greater? :2thumbsup:

More seriously, what would an entirely open border count as, (i find it quite an unusual term) - and what effect would it have - if half the politicians (dems) want it then it must have some advantages :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Scurvy

You can hardly blame the mexicans for the state of mexico, its a naturally poor country with bad weather etc. + when a country starts going bad, its hard to avoid getting caught in a downwards spiral - My history isn't very good, but i think America occupied some of the best bits of mexico when it was created...

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Actually this is incorrect. Mexico has an abundent oil and natural gas potential and industry. Plus it has some good argiculture land and some other natural resources. Its political system however is very corrupt

When the United States gained its independence Mexico was still under the thump of Spain. Mexico repelled against Spain around 1820. The Texans revolted against Mexico in the 1830's. Now many Texas were actually immigrants from the United States into Mexico, but a significant portion of the Texan rebellion consistent of Mexican's upset with the breaking of the 1824 Constitution of Mexico. The United States then fought a war with Mexico where in the negotation for a peace treaty Mexico sold the rights to what is now New Mexico, Arizona, California, Parts of Nevada, Utah, and Colorado to the United States for a payment of gold. So in essence the occupied best parts when created is false on both accounts.

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+ If there are so many mexicans in America then why is the standard of living still far greater? :2thumbsup:

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Simple because they have the advantage of the United States system. Which is significantly better then the governmental system in Mexico

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More seriously, what would an entirely open border count as, (i find it quite an unusual term) - and what effect would it have - if half the politicians (dems) want it then it must have some advantages :2thumbsup:

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The advantage is in the votes to maintain power in the government. An open border exists between the United States, Canada, and Mexico already in the aspects of the NAFTA. Trade is allowed to go back and forth with minimumal constraints. Immigrantion however should be controlled in some way, legal immigrantions is always a good thing - however illegal immigrantions violates the laws of the nation. You ever asked yourself why Mexico will severly punish illegal immigrants into their nation - but activitily pursue policies that pushes illegal immigrantion to the north?

Thanks Redleg - I won't quote due to length, but very useful post (my American history isn't the best) :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by BDC

I'm always surprised that Americans (who are mostly so proud of their immigrant ancestors) always seem so hostile to more people trying to get in...

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If you, or anyone else, wishes to emigrate to this country, following the legal process and procedure for doing so, you will be more than welcome.

We do not like, but reluctantly understand, how someone who is frustrated with the waiting involved in the legal process might want to illegally speed things up a bit. They still seek to be a part of our society and to grow with it.

We get frustrated at the increasingly numerous illegals who come here to work -- admittedly hard and well for the most part -- but have no desire to contribute to our society, only to siphon off resources to send home. It's wrong, but hard to fault someone completely when their desire is merely to make things better for their kin. So we're angry, but recognize that these individuals are not the root of the problem of themselves.

We get damned angry at a neighboring government that is so riddled with corruption and inefficiency that despite massive oil revenues it has a perrennial poverty crisis -- which it then exports to the United States so that they don't have to undertake the hard work of reforming their own government and society so that it functions without siphoning off 40 billion dollars a year from the US economy.

We need to become visciously upset with the industries and employers who ignore our own labor laws to create a market for this traffic in wage-slaves -- and to make it completely unviable for them to continue if discovered.

Fencing the border can never, of itself, be a solution. Any wall must be defended, or it merely increases the time required to move from point A to point B. Fencing has its place, particulary for security concerns in a war against terrorism, but other changes will have to occur.

Note: Yes, Al Queada and other terror organizations cannot be stopped by a border fence. No such preventive measure can be 100% effective. However, it will increase the difficulties they face and any resource/effort that they have to expend getting past my defenses is a resource/effort they can't use to kill my countrymen. If your rationale for defense is "it needs to be 99% effective or we shouldn't bother" then quit bothering with anything and go get stoned or something, but please do get out of the way of people who are trying to do something effective.

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Originally Posted by drone

The GOP Senate almost killed the filibuster in 2005. That would have been quite ironic....

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On judicial nominations only.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

On judicial nominations only.

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I stand corrected. ~:doh:

:bow:

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Originally Posted by Prince of the Poodles

Damn, the mexicans ruined their country and now the dems are wanting to let them ruin ours? :furious3:

There is a reason the Standard of Living in America is so much better than that of Mexico - a lack of mexicans! They are now the largest minority in the country. Dont we have enough??

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That is one of the most arrogant, ignorant statements I have ever heard in here.

And that is saying something.

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Originally Posted by Goofball

That is one of the most arrogant, ignorant statements I have ever heard in here.

And that is saying something.

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He does have a point, just saying it outright. What is wrong about that then??

He's stating that the Mexicans aren't capable of our standard of living, unbelievable it needed to be spelled out.

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

He's stating that the Mexicans aren't capable of our standard of living, unbelievable it needed to be spelled out.

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:laugh4: Oh and your flower scares me.:bigcry: