Attempted peaceful HRE Campain ...

Could not sleep on Saturday night and started (at 1 a.m.:shame: ) an HRE campaign - early period - GA - hard.

Since I felt a bit tired, I chose not to be aggressive and just tried to keep my territory in one piece for a while. Never thought that strategy would keep me alive long but gave it a go anyway.

Things turned out surprisingly good:

- the Byz conquered Sicily early in the game (about 1100) . I thought that was a bad news announcing battles with eight-stars Jedi katatanks in the long-term but it got me rid of the Sicilians before they had built loads of ships.

- the Italians went at war with the Byz. Got smacked and a civil war occurred in Venice and Genoa. Venice was too tempting to be resisted (an additional 1000 florins a year without any great developement is a great bonus for the HRE). My first battle of the game after 30 years ...

- the Hungarian went at war with the Byz. Got smacked big time (especially once Poland had joined the fray) but one of my emissary brought me the good news that the Turks were already in Bulgaria and Greece :2thumbsup: The Byz just had Naples, Sicily, a few provinces in the Balkan and their three Islands. Being at war with the Italian they had trouble keeping their ships at sea but destroyed quite few Italian ships as far as I could see :beam: ...

- The Spaniards and the Egyptians had attacked the Elmos who were swiftly destroyed. The Egyptians got as far as Algeria.

- The French attacked the English were probably about to win but somehow stopped (Papal injunction presumably) with the English having only Mercia, Northumbria and Wales. The French used the break to get rid of Aragon.

Since all my general sucked (they had fought one battle since 1087 so who could blame them), I built inquisitors ASAP in order to get rid of the strong French and Polish generals:whip: :whip: . Went well with the French, not so with the Polish since most of their general were princes. After my agents had burnt all the good French generals, the Spaniard chose to attack them and the French went into several civil wars shortly (now they just hold Flanders, Wessex and Champagne)… The king of England having died heirless, the English disappeared and it became time to burn the Spanish generals - went quite well since the zeal in the French provinces was very high due to my inquisitors having burnt every French leader there for decades :inquisitive: ….

I then spotted that the Byz king was isolated in Naples (Italians had taken Sicily and Rome from them) so I made, in 1177, my first "official" aggressive move of the game and launched a crusade … Staring a war as the HRE, a luxury seldom enjoyed

This was the trigger of a more HRE familiar scenario since I was as a result attacked by their Polish allies and, as a result my former allies the Italian.:juggle2:

The war against the Polish and Italians started poorly whole with two very humiliating defeats for me when attempting to take Rome and Poland (I had not upgraded my army to save the cash so that some urban militia and spearmen unit did have an awful morale and caused mass rout). :wall: :shame: :wall: :shame: :whip: :whip: :thumbsdown:

The crusade reached Naples and, despite considerable losses:sweatdrop: , the Byz entire army was destroyed except for the 6 stars-famously brave-killer instinct King who retreated to the keep (without even getting the good runner vice) … Next turn the castle in Naples was assaulted losing about 200 men before the Jedi king was finally killed by arrows. This meant the end of the Byz and Lithuania and Moldavia went rebel - with the Hungarian reappearing there.

Got the Italian and Poles under control, Italians only have Sicily left (civil war in Sardinia and Corsica). Same with the Poles (the long strip of land between Poland and Lithuania :book: with a civil war starting). So I got in addition to my Homeland: Venise, Milan, Genoa, Tuscany, Naples, Poland, Silesia, Pomerania, Prussia and Livonia (for which I made a second crusade - Drang nach oost is mine)

Of course now that I have dealt with the my main enemy so far, new ones have just appeared (Turks who's lands stretches from Hungary-Croatia to Rum and Papacy with a single province, the Papal States). Turks have just attacked my ships while the Papacy invaded Tuscany (but was repelled the next year). The Spanish will probably join them when they have finished the French.

Next moves are (i) to attack Croatia and Hungary to reduce the number of provinces to guard and put some buffer spaces between my homeland and the Turks, (ii) to finish the Italian in Sicily using the crusader army in Naples (but not before I have bribed the rebels in Corsica and Sardignia), (iii) finish the Poles in their long strip of land (can still not remember but it starts with Vo …. :book: :help: ) and (iii) reduce the papal army to a few hundred peasants so that it can no longer be a pain in my neck and cannot reappear.

Was 11 a.m. (and 1189) and was becoming too sleepy to fight any serious battle … Will have to wait until next week-end ...

Wonder who the Egyptian will backstab … Spaniards or Turks ?

First game ever as the HRE were France remains my trusted ally so far (but they should perhaps not have trusted me …). Needless to say that the longest part of the game were the last 10 years with battle(s) every turn rather than the previous 90 ... 90 years without being attacked must be my record ... Wonder how much longer I could have kept it going but destroying the Biz and the GA point for the "Holy roman Empire" were too tempting ...

Nice campaign there Jxrc! 90 years without being attacked once sure is impressive.

Volhynia is the province you're thinking of:yes:

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Originally Posted by Innocentius

Nice campaign there Jxrc! 90 years without being attacked once sure is impressive.:

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Perhaps the computer felt merciful given the time of the night ?:clown:

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Originally Posted by Innocentius

Volhynia is the province you're thinking of:yes:

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Thanks !!!!:2thumbsup: How could I forget the richest province in the game with all that trade and glorious farmlands !!! :beam:

Nice campaign, Jxrc! :thumbsup: Your 90 years of peace is all the more impressive given that you're the HRE! When I play as the Germans, I don't think I've ever gone more than 10-15 years at a time without being at war with someone. Congratulations man; you've done well. ~:cheers:

Enjoyed reading about your campaign,Jorc. I tried something similar with the Italians recently. Watching all the other factions carve it out with eachother.

I managed a huge trade network, but made a mistake of attacking Sicily after it got excommed. Also having Venice is , in the words of a recent episode of "Enterprise", a bit like" painting a giant bullseye on the hull." Everyones after it.

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Originally Posted by Tony Furze

Also having Venice is , in the words of a recent episode of "Enterprise", a bit like" painting a giant bullseye on the hull." Everyones after it.

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LOL! :laugh4: Yes, that's all too true. Goodness knows I often gun for it myself. ~D

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Originally Posted by Martok

When I play as the Germans, I don't think I've ever gone more than 10-15 years at a time without being at war with someone.

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I have to say that a huge amount of luck/ random is needed to go beyond 15 years of peace. I usually do about the same (put loads of dodgy troops everywhere specially in Burgundy and Lorraine) sometimes it does not help at all.

In this campaign, I think that my luck was that:

(i) the Byz got too greedy and became the target of all adjacent factions (spared me the Italian and Hungarian threat);
(ii) the English did not build any serious army and were too tempting for the French;
(iii) the Poles got involved in their usual conquest east agaisnt the rebel, then backstabbed the Hungarian who were losing against the Byz.

Fundamentally it comes to having a good combination of script for other AI factions more than anything...

Sorry to misspell your name Jxrc- Im getting new specs today!!! (.)-(.)

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Originally Posted by Tony Furze

Sorry to misspell your name Jxrc- Im getting new specs today!!! (.)-(.)

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No bother. :smash:

Just four letters rather than a name (just an abbreviation of my name used in an old job - should have been "JERC" rather than "JXRC" but "JERC" did not seem the name of someone whom I would trust so the "human ressource department" came with the brillant idea to use "X" rather than "E"):beam:

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Originally Posted by Jxrc

I have to say that a huge amount of luck/ random is needed to go beyond 15 years of peace. I usually do about the same (put loads of dodgy troops everywhere specially in Burgundy and Lorraine) sometimes it does not help at all.


Fundamentally it comes to having a good combination of script for other AI factions more than anything...

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I'd daresay you're correct. When I think about it, chances are that that probably applies to any faction that has managed to stay at peace for long periods of time (say, 25 years or more). How long one manages to avoid war with other factions likely depends on luck as much as anything else.

Still, staying at peace that long is especially difficult for the HRE. You therefore must have had an extraordinary amount of luck, even beyond the usual amount. ~:)

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Originally Posted by Martok

I'd daresay you're correct. When I think about it, chances are that that probably applies to any faction that has managed to stay at peace for long periods of time (say, 25 years or more). How long one manages to avoid war with other factions likely depends on luck as much as anything else.

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Well I would say it is much easier with small isolated faction. If you play as the Danes and stick to developping DK, Norway and Sweden, you probably have a good chance to stay at peace of ages if you take the precaution to always have too ship in each sea (otherwise you will be attacked by the Italians - Noble mercantilism oblige - or the Sicilians). Same thing if you play as the Sicilian and stick to Naples, Sicily and Malta. This sounds a bit boring to do but that can be a good way to start a high period campaign with nicely developped provinces (note that your heir will suck big time after a while)

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Originally Posted by Martok

Still, staying at peace that long is especially difficult for the HRE. You therefore must have had an extraordinary amount of luck, even beyond the usual amount. ~:)

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Lucky indeed. The only thing that saved me from war a little longer was to burn the French General so that the French did not dare to attack my vast armies of dodgy spearmen and UA and became themselves a tempting target for the Spaniards. The rest was just a combination of very fortunate events.

I’ve also been playing the HRE (Early/GA/2.01/VI/Expert) with a “quiet opening”, too. I decided to only go for GA provinces or rebels. I concentrated on developing Friesland, Saxony, Brandenburg, Franconia, Schwabia, Bohemia and Bavaria. I abandoned the other starting provinces to the rebels. This gave me a period of thirty turns or so where my neighbors gobbled up the rebel provinces and ignored me.
I developed Friesland to produce Barques. I also built exactly the structures necessary for the following: Saxony-Royal Knights (RK); Brandenburg-Feudal Men-At-Arms (FMAA); Franconia-Feudal Sergeants (FS) and Schwabia Assassins. Bavaria and Bohemia got maxed farming and mining. I allowed rebels to repeatedly form in these two provinces for some extra income and experience. Soon all the royal family had at least 4 stars.
I took rebel Pomerania before the Polish could get it and built Barques there too. My economy wasn’t booming, but everything kept moving ahead. I built several armies consisting of five each RK’s, FMAA and FS. Each had a 4* general. This came in handy as France broke the alliance and invaded Friesland.
The French retreated immediately and I retook three of my GA provinces from them. I built a Master Horse Breeder in Lorraine and modified my armies to four each FS, FMAA and Mounted Crossbowmen with three RK’s and a Prince. I invaded and plundered Isle De France and a couple other provinces, then left them to the rebels. The French had enough and eventually rejoined my alliance.
France fit nicely into my alliance with Poland, Italy, Denmark, Spain and the Pope. Trade was improving and I was preparing for the Crusades. In Saxony I had built only those structures necessary to acquire the two double star titles (Admiral of the Fleet and Masters of the Stables, something like that). Along with the title for Governor of Pomerania this gave me one 8* and a 6* general. I had built a charterhouse in Friesland and Pomerania and two Crusade markers in each province. Then Hungary invaded Bavaria and Bohemia.
The Hungarians had some good units, but my generals gave my armies more than enough valour to crush them. I retook my two provinces and also Austria (another GA province). At this point Italy only occupied Switzerland and Milan on the continent. You guessed it. Italy, b-bye.
Europe was fairly safe now. Poland, my ally, had only three provinces. Italy, on Corsica and Sardinia, was neutral. The Pope was my ally and held the rest of Italy. France was weak and at war with Aragon. I decided to assassinate the royal family of Denmark (my ally) until they were gone. The Danes had failed to take Norway and then lost Sweden to the Norsemen. Three successful assassinations later and I invaded. I took all of Scandinavia, along with newly rebel Prussia.
I overwhelmed the Egyptians in short order with three Crusades that took Palestine, Tripoli and Antioch. I allied with the Byz and left them Edessa (it’s only worth one GA point). Instead, I launched a Crusade into rebel Livonia.
Finally, my armies took Tuscany, Rome and Naples in 2 turns to complete the HRE GA. My four star assassin whacked the Pope to end the Excommunication and I took rebel Sicily. France attacked again and their ally the Byz split with me. Now I am at war with France, Egypt and the Pope. My only ally is Poland. The Byz are very large, but the Golden Horde should fix that. It’s 1205 and I have the highest GA score (75).

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Originally Posted by Jxrc

Well I would say it is much easier with small isolated faction. If you play as the Danes and stick to developping DK, Norway and Sweden, you probably have a good chance to stay at peace of ages if you take the precaution to always have too ship in each sea (otherwise you will be attacked by the Italians - Noble mercantilism oblige - or the Sicilians). Same thing if you play as the Sicilian and stick to Naples, Sicily and Malta. This sounds a bit boring to do but that can be a good way to start a high period campaign with nicely developped provinces (note that your heir will suck big time after a while).

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That's maybe true up to a point (in regards to isolated factions), but it still doesn't "immunize" them from interfactional wars. At best, it only perhaps delays warfare by an extra few years. Of course, I'm basing that mostly off of my own experiences--you've maybe been more fortunate than myself. :shrug:

@Agent_Miles: Nice campaign so far! You should post about it in the Pics & History thread. :yes:

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Originally Posted by Martok

That's maybe true up to a point (in regards to isolated factions), but it still doesn't "immunize" them from interfactional wars. At best, it only perhaps delays warfare by an extra few years. Of course, I'm basing that mostly off of my own experiences--you've maybe been more fortunate than myself. :shrug:

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For the Sicilians it works fine if you stick to Naples and if the Pope remains your only neighbour. You just need to pack a decent amount of troops and he should leave you alone. Of course if he is wiped out by another faction and/or reemerges that your peaceful days are over. I do not say that it works each time (once he attacked, retreated and ask for peace the next turn; another time he got hold of North Italy and became greedy) but I would say that it works 6/7 times out of ten. As to how long it works, it's quite possible that you cannot stay at peace the whole game (would be boring anyway, would'nt ?). Forgot to add in my previous post that, as the Sicilian, you usually have one early war with the Biz to take Naples. In most cases, it automatically ends after the battle due to the absence of contact.

Regarding the Danes, it about the same as long as the HRE is your only neighbour (they only attacked me a few times and,as far as I can remember, each time after I had started a war against the Russians or English).

So if a peace period with any other faction exceeding 30 years is an oddity, I think that you can easily remain at peace with the Danes and Sicilian for about 90 years without problem. In any event by 1177 I usually start being a bit aggressive anyway:viking: :viking: (90 years of shipbuilding and matchmaking only can seem long sometimes :clown:) and I have never tried to go for Medieval Total Peace until the end of the game~:)

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Originally Posted by Jxrc

and I have never tried to go for Medieval Total Peace until the end of the game~:)

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That might be interesting, but would probably never happen. My last Byz emperor took then throne when he was 17 and ruled through until he was 88 we had 65 years of peace then... probably the longest I've ever gone with no wars


~BrSpiritus

i once lasted about ten seconds without madly attacking someone:egypt: :egypt: :egypt: :egypt: :whip: :whip: :wall: :2thumbsup: :smash: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

The HRe are one of the hardest factions in the game, no doubt about that. The computer doesn't even act logically! For instance, who ever heard of the English ALLYING with the French to attack the HRE? It's completely stupid. Then you can get some really horrible defeats. When I was attacking Champagne, I had two militia sergeants, one feudal footknights and a unit of halbediers, which I thought would be ample against the Royal Nights and two Archers ranged against me. But guess what, it isn't. Using my historical knowledge, I thought the best way of countering the knights would be to send my foot knights (who was my leader) against them. Then the most annoying thing happens. My general gets killed in the first charge! Of all the times when the enemy general is practically superman, surrounded by fifty men yet still beating them off, yet this time my general gets killed. It's bloody unfair! But what the heck, I thought, I still have my halbedier who can deal with the knights while my sargies make mince meat out of the archers. But oh no, my other soldiers squeal like little girls, bepish themselves and decide to run away. You useless *beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeps*!

i once lasted about ten seconds without madly attacking someone:egypt: :egypt: :egypt: :egypt: :whip: :whip: :wall: :2thumbsup: :smash: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

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Originally Posted by King Henry V

The HRe are one of the hardest factions in the game, no doubt about that. The computer doesn't even act logically! For instance, who ever heard of the English ALLYING with the French to attack the HRE? It's completely stupid. Then you can get some really horrible defeats. When I was attacking Champagne, I had two militia sergeants, one feudal footknights and a unit of halbediers, which I thought would be ample against the Royal Nights and two Archers ranged against me. But guess what, it isn't. Using my historical knowledge, I thought the best way of countering the knights would be to send my foot knights (who was my leader) against them. Then the most annoying thing happens. My general gets killed in the first charge! Of all the times when the enemy general is practically superman, surrounded by fifty men yet still beating them off, yet this time my general gets killed. It's bloody unfair! But what the heck, I thought, I still have my halbedier who can deal with the knights while my sargies make mince meat out of the archers. But oh no, my other soldiers squeal like little girls, bepish themselves and decide to run away. You useless *beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeps*!

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Well, both the fact of an overly brave general dying at once and the demoralization of the troops when they learn about the death of the general isn't really unrealistic or inaccurate in any way.
Take other games, like Stronghold for example. Then your peasants leave you if you can't provide them with enough food (which it's their job to produce by the way):furious3: Or AoE, where troops pop out of buildings and can't rout at all.

I know it's realistic, but what's so annoying is that it never happens in my favour.

The HRE is probably the hardest faction in the game, as just anyone who has a border with you just has the greatest urge to join in the gang bang.

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Originally Posted by King Henry V

The HRe are one of the hardest factions in the game, no doubt about that. The computer doesn't even act logically!

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The AI is never logical, it works in patterns which at time appear random and unpredictable. You can abandon a province and leave a spy there right next to a frontier with the enemy, and they won't touch it. Yet another of your provinces with a sizable garrison will be attacked. It seems to make strange decisions as to when it should make war. If you get a faction that is refusing alliance, then maybe you should worry? Well no. If you're playing as the Turks, the Byzantine will often never accept an alliance, but Egyptians will. The Egyptians will backstab you once they're strong enough. The Byzantines will leave you alone so long as you leave them alone. (I once went through to the high period with minimal nothern garrisons and the Byzantine never attacked. The Golden Horde arrived, and still the Byzantine didn't attack. It wasn't until after they had accepted an alliance with me, as we were both at war with the Horde, that they broke that and invaded.

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Originally Posted by King Henry V

For instance, who ever heard of the English ALLYING with the French to attack the HRE? It's completely stupid.

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Not necessarily. The game is loosely based on history, but doesn't follow historical events to the letter. If the Almohads invaded Scotland and their biggest allies were the Spanish against the Papacy, that's not stupid, it's just possible, as the game makes it so.

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Originally Posted by King Henry V

Then you can get some really horrible defeats. When I was attacking Champagne, I had two militia sergeants, one feudal footknights and a unit of halbediers, which I thought would be ample against the Royal Nights and two Archers ranged against me.

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I've just had the equivalent of 6 units of Ghulam Bodyguards decimated by 2 units Trebizond Archers. The difference is that I wasn't surprised. Their valour was superior. They fired barely a shot, and defeated my units in melee only, fighting uphill against my units that had the height advantaged and had charged downhill at them first.

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Originally Posted by King Henry V

But guess what, it isn't. Using my historical knowledge, I thought the best way of countering the knights would be to send my foot knights (who was my leader) against them. Then the most annoying thing happens. My general gets killed in the first charge!

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No matter what the stats of the general I would never commit him to battle too early. The "first charge" is far too early.

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Originally Posted by King Henry V

Of all the times when the enemy general is practically superman, surrounded by fifty men yet still beating them off, yet this time my general gets killed.

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So called "Jedi" generals are a bit of a phenomenon that was done away with in later TW games. I have had them myself and I've seen the AI with them also. You need to check the generals unit valour and his personal morale on the field.

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Originally Posted by King Henry V

It's bloody unfair! But what the heck, I thought, I still have my halbedier who can deal with the knights while my sargies make mince meat out of the archers. But oh no, my other soldiers squeal like little girls, bepish themselves and decide to run away. You useless *beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeps*!

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Halberdiers and Chivalric Sergeants have low base morale. They are capable but need a good general and some morale upgrades to keep their spirits up. It seems like your's were greens, in this case, propped up solely by the valour given by the general's command stars. It is a good idea to keep the general out of danger. Especially in the case of high and late era catholic troops who are all equipment and not much guts.

The worst part about it (in XL) is that you start out not being able to produce anything. The startpos file needs to be heavily altered to allow the Germans to produce troops in more than 2 providences. How the hell did they get that big in the first place? :furious3:

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

The worst part about it (in XL) is that you start out not being able to produce anything. The startpos file needs to be heavily altered to allow the Germans to produce troops in more than 2 providences. How the hell did they get that big in the first place? :furious3:

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They conquered it all with nothing but German Heavy Urban Militia. These units don't need forts. They can live in the open for days, killing wild boar with their bare hands, hacking them up with their pole arms (+1 attack vs boar of all kinds) and roasting them. Only one unit of 60 of these fearsome warriors is needed to keep an entire province under control.

On a more serious note, this is why I never play the HRE. Too many provinces... a GLUT of provinces... and 1 or 2 units in each province. All of the provinces are hopelessly underdeveloped also, forcing you to go through an almost medial teching up process. Then there's the Swabian Swordsmen that aren't really worth the effort, and are usually unavailable by the time I've teched up to them anyway. It's usually when I'm just about to strengthen my garrisons that the French hit me. Followed by the Italians, the Poles and the Hungarians. Then the whole thing turns into a slugging match lasting years.

Ditto. And by the time you've finished slugging it out with French, Italians, Hungarians and English, the winners of the Almohad/Spanish smackdown knock on your western door while the winners of the three way clash between Byzantines/Egyptian/Turks knock on the eastern door. All with hordes of teched-up high valour badass troops while I'm still trying to pay for feudal sergeants and crossbows...and if I'm really lucky, I haven't been excommunicated more than once or twice.

And then there's Mongols. And Swiss revolts. And Burgundy. And you can't even lose due to your royal line getting wiped out. You have to play till the end...

And finally, HRE troops seem to have ghastly morale and a tendency to run for the hills without much provocation. Lack of decent generals and the fact that you have to rely on base level troops most of the time. Such a challenge.

I've not tried HRE in XL, but in vanilla I had a pretty good campaign. I disagree with regards to the Swabian swords -- they were the mainstay of my infantry during the early period, and they lingered on into the high era too. For swordsmen they were pretty good against cavalry, IIRC, probably due to the AP bonus against armoured horsemen of various types. The mounted Xbows are another important part of the mix for HRE, and have pretty low tech requirements.

Re King Hal, I think your main error was charging your foot knights at mounted knights. You didn't say whether they were feudal or chivalric -- it makes a difference as chivalric knights have AP and anti-cav bonuses. I wouldn't take feudal foot knights against cav unless they were pinned and I could get at their rear (hmmm, perhaps I ought to rephrase that... :clown: ) Even so, one thing I've noticed is that a cav charge against an infantry general's unit will tend to kill the general first, especially if the cav are in a wedge (which aims right for the flag -- your bossman!)

And as for halbardiers, their morale is legendary. Despite nice sharp pointy things and a ton of armour they are prone to running away and screaming like big girls' blouses if they're not looked after carefully. Given the troops you had, 2 MS, halbs and foot knights, I'd draw up in two lines: halbs in the front flanked by the MS, with the general right behind the halbs, then head for the enemy knights. If the halbs can take the charge so much the better, with the general behind and their flanks covered they should hold. Then mob the knights, kill or rout the enemy general, then and only then go after the archers, who should now be running away too fast for you to catch them :beam:

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Originally Posted by matteus the inbred

And by the time you've finished slugging it out with French, Italians, Hungarians and English, the winners of the Almohad/Spanish smackdown knock on your western door while the winners of the three way clash between Byzantines/Egyptian/Turks knock on the eastern door. All with hordes of teched-up high valour badass troops while I'm still trying to pay for feudal sergeants and crossbows...and if I'm really lucky, I haven't been excommunicated more than once or twice.

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Very true (but there is alos the Danesto deal with). The thing is once the first war has broken out you're in for two or three battles each turn for a while. Once you've finished your probably own all europe between Spain and the line Livonia-Lithuania-Kiev-Constantinoples so that the game is as good as over since there is no way you can loose (except if you do something really silly).

So that, if you start in the early period, using high tech troops such as gothic spearmen and knights is just not an actual option because it requires that you stop any conquest for a good while (about 100 years - but true it is the case with most factions)

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Originally Posted by matteus the inbred

And finally, HRE troops seem to have ghastly morale and a tendency to run for the hills without much provocation. Lack of decent generals and the fact that you have to rely on base level troops most of the time. Such a challenge.

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True again but, IMHO, mostly due to the fact that some of your main neighbours get good generals early (tankeverille for the Italian, Bouillon and Boulonge for the French, de Normandie and Borleg for the Englsih) while you only have a few heirs (usually not that good) until you get after about fifty years Albrecht der Bar (just four stars though) and Henri the Lion (four stars as well but natural leader which helps greatly with your dodgy troops (von Aue and von Salza are not even worth mentionning since they only have two or three stars each with no good vice).

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Originally Posted by Manco Capac

They conquered it all with nothing but German Heavy Urban Militia. These units don't need forts. They can live in the open for days, killing wild boar with their bare hands, hacking them up with their pole arms (+1 attack vs boar of all kinds) and roasting them. Only one unit of 60 of these fearsome warriors is needed to keep an entire province under control.

On a more serious note, this is why I never play the HRE. Too many provinces... a GLUT of provinces... and 1 or 2 units in each province. All of the provinces are hopelessly underdeveloped also, forcing you to go through an almost medial teching up process. Then there's the Swabian Swordsmen that aren't really worth the effort, and are usually unavailable by the time I've teched up to them anyway. It's usually when I'm just about to strengthen my garrisons that the French hit me. Followed by the Italians, the Poles and the Hungarians. Then the whole thing turns into a slugging match lasting years.

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Odly enough there is some truth to your words. The only way I (recently) held on playing them from Early was to spam UM to make my borders look like they were defended. Generals were optional.

The real problem is when you get attacked. No one...will make peace with you. The only security I was able to achieve on the western front was by taking everything down to Navarre and Aragon. Ever since I got there, the Elmos have been trying to funnel troops thru Aragon to expand out of Iberia.

I can produce Swabian swordsmen but I don't care. Between Jinettes and Huscarls (yes, the Danes wouldn't accept peace either) I have enough uber units to sate my blood lust.

The game is GA but its gotten so boring.