What i think will happen with modding M2TW

Wel as an offical unpacker tool has been confirmed by CA, as wel as news that model and texture editing will not be as easy as they were in RTw, i got thinking about how modding M2TW will pan out. These are my main thoughts:

More Gameplay Mods

With parts of the ai now open to modding, as wel as diplomacy, pathfinding, and other things i think we will see more mods that focus on improving the campaign and battles through those files. Most likely these will focus on improved campaign ai and diplomacy, perhpas refining some of CAs features.

New faction mods

As there are now 9 factions slots available, as soon as the unpacked is released i think new factions will also be one of the main things done, probably in combination with a new or edited campaign mod. I think they will probably use modified M2TW textures if we can edit them, maybe recoloured so as to make them fit in with the rest of the factions.

Less Major Mods

With the graphical side of things harder to mod i cannot see as many major mds for M2Tw as we saw for RTw, and mods set in another time period/fantasy setting will be almost impossible to do considering just how much will need to be changed. Maybe fantasy mods with basically a medieval setting might work, but who knows. Realism mods will also be limited in how much they can edit unit models to make them more accurate, hopefully textures will be easier to edit.

What do other modders think?

Well the question is when or if we'll be able to mod the models at all. If we aren't, I can't see the modding community go very far with M2, which would be a shame.

We couldn´t in RTW as well until Vercingetorix made his .cas importer. Though I don´t know if he´s still active in the TW community.

If we can't change models i see the mod community becoming much more test editing orientated as we now have more to work with, the most important being moddable ai.

I don't see why graphical modding will present such a difficulty. Although you CAN create many varieties of a skin, it doesn't mean you HAVE to. So if you had a model for an Armored Hoplite from RTW, you could just split up his one texture into 4-5 separate ones that M2TW requires, and your work would end there. You could then add varieties if you WANTED to. Besides, as I think the M2 engine will allow, you can probably share textures/models between units, so that the many different Greek units can share the same muscled cuirass for instance, cutting down the graphical development DRASTICALLY. All in all, we'll just have to wait a few days for all these things to clear out.

CA have said Rome models wont more in M2Tw, so it wont be that easy.

Well right, some transitional issues will have to be accomodated between Rome and M2, but people have made it sound like 4x or 5x as much work will have to be done on each model, and I think that's just not the case. It will go a little slow at first, but it was also SUPER slow at the beginning for Rome, with some extraordinarily primitive textures in the beginning, and only arriving to quality work in the last year or so.

Well as it is CA has not announced anything about model/texture tools which we as the community do need. I really kind of doubt that we'll able to reverse engineer the stuff this time as apparently everything is much more complex. So we're kind of stuck at CA's mercy. And if this is the case and CA doesnt provide us with these tools then the modding community is pretty much dead in the water.

I kind of really wished i would have known this stuff earlier. I wouldnt have preordered the game then.

Well I don't think we should jump to conclusions just yet it may take time but CA seem to be definitely helping the community this time and they say they will look at the models so lets just be patient for a couple of months or so.

Who knows. There are some things I want to create (model) but, if I can't I might as well not bother.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shifty157

Well as it is CA has not announced anything about model/texture tools which we as the community do need. I really kind of doubt that we'll able to reverse engineer the stuff this time as apparently everything is much more complex. So we're kind of stuck at CA's mercy. And if this is the case and CA doesnt provide us with these tools then the modding community is pretty much dead in the water.

I kind of really wished i would have known this stuff earlier. I wouldnt have preordered the game then.

---

I'm in the same boat. 'Modder Friendly' except you can't make any actual major mods... at all. I refuse to buy the game until they provide us with some way to add models, skins, and animations, and I would encourage others to do so as well.

As it stands now, CA has put a nail in the coffin of the community who has done nothing but add options and refinements (and hence value) to their game. I can't help but take it somewhat personally.

There will be NO major mods, and NO diversity in the game if we cannot add/edit models, textures, and animations.

After having played the game since it was released I have taken my decision not to bother with modding it or playing it anymore. It's quite a crap after spending 50 Euros not to feel anything more then you feel for a mod like Chivalry. The things I don't like are many more then the things I like, the things which should have been are many more then what it is. I don't think there is an extra-feature here which can't be scripted or managed (even without scripting) in RTW as well.

Arbaces.

V's tool made the major mods of RTW possible.

If CA does not provide one (how did they get the models in in the first place?) then there will be no major mods for M2TW. If we cannot alter the or create new battle unit models then why bother making a new faction mod?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lusted

As there are now 9 factions slots available

---

Only nine?!?! :wall:

If we cannot edit models and textures, then the TW modding community will wither and die, as others have said before. I'm not sure what to think, but I hope the people at CA have enough sense to see that the longevity of RTW is in large part due to the hard work of modders.

The thing that worries me is that if they didn't release tools for RTW (we have Vercingetorix to thank for those), why should we believe that they will do so for M2?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by -apocalypsis-

The thing that worries me is that if they didn't release tools for RTW (we have Vercingetorix to thank for those), why should we believe that they will do so for M2?

---

Because at least an unpacker tool is already announced, they invited ER over before their release, and they seem to care at least a bit more for their consumers this time around.

Quote:

---

Only nine?!?!

---

Meant nine new factions, not just 9 faction slots.

I don't personally think the mod community will die, just become much less varied when it comes ot MTW II. The mods will have to focus on the same time period and use the same units, which will be a definate shame, but wont completely eradicate the modding market for the game. In any case, the differences from a modding p.o.v between Medieval II and Rome seem to be very few and hence I feel that most major mods will continue for the Rome engine, which is going to be a shame. I guess we all jsut have to wait and see

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alpaca

Because at least an unpacker tool is already announced, they invited ER over before their release, and they seem to care at least a bit more for their consumers this time around.

---

I still do not dare to get my hopes up. Without a way of editing models, skins, and animations, the unpacker will be virtually useless (as far as larger mods are concerned, at least).

Realistically, without the opportunity to add new graphical content.... be that skins or models, then there isn't really a 'mod community' for MTW2 to worry about. There will be a few people tweaking preferences and re-balancing stats...but that is it.

That would be a HUGE backward step, and would mean that MTW2 would effectively become useless as a sandbox. I for one would rather mod for RTW and finish off some projects there than move onto a newer engine with no toolkit.

Mind you....why are we assuming that someone can't make a tool like Vercingetorix did for MTW2.....CA provided NONE of the tools we use for RTW...the community did it all. Why can't we do it again?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by -apocalypsis-

I still do not dare to get my hopes up. Without a way of editing models, skins, and animations, the unpacker will be virtually useless (as far as larger mods are concerned, at least).

---

I don't agree there. You can still work a lot on gameplay-enhancing, and I think the skins won't be such a tough nut to crack when compared to the models.
Don't forget that Vercingetorix also released his tools only a few months after the release, so if we get something within, say, half a year, that's perfectly all right. If we don't get anything... Well then, can't help it really.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alpaca

I don't agree there. You can still work a lot on gameplay-enhancing, and I think the skins won't be such a tough nut to crack when compared to the models.
Don't forget that Vercingetorix also released his tools only a few months after the release, so if we get something within, say, half a year, that's perfectly all right. If we don't get anything... Well then, can't help it really.

---

You don't agree that the unpacker will be virtually useless for modders working on larger mods, without a way to edit models and animations? We may see a lot of smaller mods focusing on the medieval era, but that will be it. And I wouldn't say that it is 'perfectly alright' to get those tools after half a year - if we get them then, then we'll get them then, but it won't be 'alright'.

Now, I'm looking at this from a "Middle-earth modder's" point of view, and as things are now, they are pretty disconcerting. But, of course, I may be overly critical, but what I'm talking about is the 'worst case scenario' - if CA releases tools within a few months, I will be the first to sing to their praise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bwian

Mind you....why are we assuming that someone can't make a tool like Vercingetorix did for MTW2.....CA provided NONE of the tools we use for RTW...the community did it all. Why can't we do it again?

---

That's what we'll have to hope for, I think (or fear) - though CA has said that the way models are done now is more complicated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by -apocalypsis-

You don't agree that the unpacker will be virtually useless for modders working on larger mods, without a way to edit models and animations? We may see a lot of smaller mods focusing on the medieval era, but that will be it. And I wouldn't say that it is 'perfectly alright' to get those tools after half a year - if we get them then, then we'll get them then, but it won't be 'alright'.

---

You said the unpacker would be virtually useless, not virtually useless for complete conversion ;) That, I can agree to.
And I can wait a few months for modding tools. I don't really expect a company to work on modding tools before being finished with the game (although some companies do it, and it's of course better for the community, and maybe the game's selling rates). The Civ4 SDK was also released a few months after the game, before that, you couldn't most mod things (well you could rebalance and make new maps but you couldn't add really new features).
I don't think we can demand anything from CA, what tools they give us is completely their and SEGA's decision, and I for my part will be happy if we get something after half a year instead of getting nothing at all, like with R:TW.

I said useless (as far as larger mods are concerned, at least). ;)

And I agree we cannot demand anything from CA - but we can, and should, loudly voice our opinion on how we think things should be. Modding tools would be great for the modding community - but, perhaps more importantly, it would be great for CA, the Total War-series, and the larger TW community, as well.

I would think that a plugin for Max to allow models to be imported and exported, plus a converter for the texture files so they could be edited are the minimums.

Even better would be something to allow reliable modification of animations as well!

Without those, no major mods can be done.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lusted

Meant nine new factions, not just 9 faction slots.

---

Ok good. :2thumbsup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bwian

I would think that a plugin for Max to allow models to be imported and exported, plus a converter for the texture files so they could be edited are the minimums.

Even better would be something to allow reliable modification of animations as well!

Without those, no major mods can be done.

---

My intuition tells me that CA is in a conflict when it comes to models/textures. They said they developed a way to improve the performance of their engine. Now, if this was an in house development, they may want to keep it secret, which is reasonable. After all they want to keep an edge over the competition.

Just my speculative intuition.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zarkis

My intuition tells me that CA is in a conflict when it comes to models/textures. They said they developed a way to improve the performance of their engine. Now, if this was an in house development, they may want to keep it secret, which is reasonable. After all they want to keep an edge over the competition.

Just my speculative intuition.

---

Competition?
What competition?
Like the dumbed down archaic basebuilding, build order memorising clickfests that bare the "RTS" title?
Name one game that even remotely approaches the scale and tactical deepness (SP?) of the TW series...

I suspect that the skins and how they are randomized makes it much more difficult to create units for M2TW than RTW. I sincerely hope that CA will release a tool to make it possible. Yet they did not do this for RTW for whatever reasons.

Hopefully, in the next few months someone with far more talent than I will figure out to at least alter existing models. Being able to alter existing models would open up major mod possiblities.

I don't think modeling and skining would be so harder for people used to it, there was a lot of projects for RTW who were unable to find a modelers and died it made the sad "natural selection" for mods.

The main problem is, would CA/Sega allow us to create new models and textures for the game ? I'm not sure because of concurency...

If there's no way to mod MTW 2 with graphical enchancements. Most will consider this game just for time to time playing and It'll go after one or two months. If there's no possibilty for graphical enchancements there'll be no major mods nor realism mods, just a lot of gameplay mods who can be intresting to try for your second game but quite boring in the long term, because you basicly see the same things that just behave a bit different.

About more factions, hem... what's the point of having more factions slots if we can create units and/or edit textures for them ? Creating Sweden faction with Dane skins and units ? :no: .

It'll kill most of the community enthusiasm, mine for sure. Because TW game are making the emphasis on graphics during battles otherwise you can play europa universallis, crusader kings or Dabol online... and RTW/STW and the first MTW.

I've the same feeling regardin MTW 2 as Abraces, I jumped from intense excitement during the first week to intense deception after the feever. I've unistalled to make room to install chivarly mod and I enjoy it more :inquisitive: :wall: .