I-pod woes

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11-16-2006, 22:22
Don Corleone

I-pod woes

So, I received an I-pod for my birthday this year (thank you again, Mrs. Corleone). And slowly but surely, I've been expanding my knowledge base, beyond just loading CDs I already own onto it to actually buying songs & albums at the Itunes store, downloading podcasts, stuff of that nature. Well, I brought my I-pod to work today to try to play some of my music. But I can't get the music on my I-pod to play on my computer, because it says my I-pod is only allowed to sync with one computer. I can understand not being allowed to play music that I loaded from an external source, namely the CD's, but the damn thing KNOWS that I bought a bunch of the music... it shows up in the Purchased folder! Any ideas on how to play purchased music on more than one computer?
11-16-2006, 23:24
Beirut

Re: I-pod woes

I'm not familiar with the I-Pod music copyrights so I hope y'all will keep the discussion in the legal direction. Thanks.
11-16-2006, 23:53
Craterus

Re: I-pod woes

With the latest iTunes software, you can authorise up to 5 different computers to play purchased music.

If you're plugging in your iPod and trying to play its content on the computer, I can't help you. I've never tried that. Sorry.
11-16-2006, 23:53
drone

Re: I-pod woes

Welcome to the wonderful world of DRM. One would assume that paying for the sound would allow fair-use, but apparently not.

I point you to the following Slashdot articles, especially the one with the Steve Jobs quote from the WSJ in 2002:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Jobs

If you legally acquire music, you need to have the right to manage it on all other devices that you own.

http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl.../10/23/1826234
http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl.../10/25/1246226

Take whatever other information present in the articles and comments as you will (along with your personal knowledge of the DCMA).
11-17-2006, 00:08
BDC

Re: I-pod woes

You're screwed over by DRM.

I hope you learnt your lesson. Buy it on CD next time. It's the same price and if you order it online you don't even need to move. It's better quality too.

iTunes has no end of issues when you try and play it on another machine. I just suggest you get a 3.5mm to 3.5mm lead and plug it into the mic socket or something.
11-17-2006, 06:07
Big King Sanctaphrax

Re: I-pod woes

This is why I refuse to buy media jukeboxes which force me to use proprietary software to access the music on them. Windows explorer all the way!
11-17-2006, 07:54
Xiahou

Re: I-pod woes

Don,

See if this is of any help to you.
11-24-2006, 17:12
screwtype

Re: I-pod woes

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDC

You're screwed over by DRM.

I hope you learnt your lesson. Buy it on CD next time. It's the same price and if you order it online you don't even need to move. It's better quality too.

iTunes has no end of issues when you try and play it on another machine. I just suggest you get a 3.5mm to 3.5mm lead and plug it into the mic socket or something.

According to drone's article above, you can just burn your iTunes song onto a CD and then convert it to MP3 format from the CD. Once you've got it into MP3 format, you should be able to use it on any machine, shouldn't you?
11-24-2006, 17:28
caravel

Re: I-pod woes

I agree 100% with BKS. You're better off with a bog standard MP3 player that allows you to drag and drop MP3's into the players memory via Explorer. You can then do exactly what you like without restriction and you don't need to run restrictive proprietary software like the Apple iPod service in order to manage it. iPods are just a gimmick.
11-25-2006, 04:14
Evil_Maniac From Mars

Re: I-pod woes

Quote:

Originally Posted by screwtype

According to drone's article above, you can just burn your iTunes song onto a CD and then convert it to MP3 format from the CD. Once you've got it into MP3 format, you should be able to use it on any machine, shouldn't you?

You can. I've tried it, and it works.
11-25-2006, 12:06
Beirut

Re: I-pod woes

Unless someone PMs me and explains that this is legal, I'm going to have to take Org-Rules Ave. and close the thread.

Even the hint of a smell of a whiff of piracy is a no-go.

Open.

It was PMd to me that there is no illegal copyright circumvention being discussed. I'll look into it some more. For now, we're open again.
11-26-2006, 14:16
caravel

Re: I-pod woes

If you buy music CD's and copy those CDs for your own use, or transfer that music for your own use onto a personal MP3 player, then AFAIK you're not breaking any law anywhere. :2cents:
11-26-2006, 18:07
Lemur

Re: I-pod woes

It's fair use versus the DMCA, two laws that utterly contradict each other.

There was a recent case involving the MPAA suing people for transferring movies which they purchased on DVD to their iPods. I think that demonstrates rather clearly what the priorities of the MPAA and the RIAA really are; it's all about controlling all access to content.
11-27-2006, 04:50
Blodrast

Re: I-pod woes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manco Capac

If you buy music CD's and copy those CDs for your own use, or transfer that music for your own use onto a personal MP3 player, then AFAIK you're not breaking any law anywhere. :2cents:

AFAIK, you are partially correct.
IF in the process of copying those CDs for your own personal use, you are circumventing or eliminating any encryption/protection in the device, or in the data itself (e.g., DRM-ed music tracks), you ARE breaking the law in the US.

I admit I do not have a link to the precise page of the official document that clearly states this without a shadow of a doubt. Sorry. This is what I know based on what I read - and I read about this topic pretty much every day. I remember having seen this in several articles, such as printed by arstechnica & co, but you better believe that I'm not gonna read the entire body of the law with all its gibberish talk...
So, sorry to those who expect me to back my claim up with a link. Take it for what it is: my opinion :2thumbsup:
11-27-2006, 05:13
Beirut

Re: I-pod woes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blodrast

AFAIK, you are partially correct.
IF in the process of copying those CDs for your own personal use, you are circumventing or eliminating any encryption/protection in the device, or in the data itself (e.g., DRM-ed music tracks), you ARE breaking the law in the US.

That was my concern.

I'm not questioning what's reasonable or not, only what's legal or not. Since this site concerns itself primarily with a copyrighted product - piracy and discussion of piracy techniques are clearly not allowed.

If anyone can help clarify all this it would be appreciated. Best we do so before we further the discussion of burning songs and so forth.

Thanks.
11-27-2006, 09:07
Xiahou

Re: I-pod woes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beirut

That was my concern.

I'm not questioning what's reasonable or not, only what's legal or not. Since this site concerns itself primarily with a copyrighted product - piracy and discussion of piracy techniques are clearly not allowed.

If anyone can help clarify all this it would be appreciated. Best we do so before we further the discussion of burning songs and so forth.

Thanks.

I'm no lawyer, but it's a well documented feature of iTunes that you can burn your music to regular non-DRM audio CDs. AFAIK, it's also perfectly legal to rip your own personal CDs to listen to for personal use. So, if you put 2 and 2 together, I don't really see where it could be considered piracy. iTunes has what amounts to a legitimate method of bypassing it's DRM built into it (ie: Burning to a CD)

That and it's lack of subscription, is the main reason that it's my app of choice when I buy music online- it's DRM is far less draconian than the other services. I think all of this is moot anyhow as I believe what DonC is trying to do wouldn't require any of this nonsense.
11-27-2006, 09:15
scotchedpommes

Re: I-pod woes

Ah, an iPod as a birthday gift. How nice. At least your better half didn't say, "I
know these are ****, but I got you one anyway." :yes:

I just wanted to clarify one point really:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manco Capac

You're better off with a bog standard MP3 player that allows you to drag and drop MP3's into the players memory via Explorer. You can then do exactly what you like without restriction and you don't need to run restrictive proprietary software like the Apple iPod service in order to manage it. iPods are just a gimmick.

It is possible to drag and drop .mp3 files, from Explorer to and from the player,
which have not been purchased through iTunes. There is no restriction in that
regard, as far as I am aware. The only problem I had was when the compression
of one file in particular would not be accepted by the player - but that was more
an issue with that file itself.

As long as you purchase the music outwith the iTunes system and have the files
present on your computer, transferring and using them is simple. [Until the
battery issues come about - and if anybody could tell me how to sort that out,
well...]
11-27-2006, 18:53
Blodrast

Re: I-pod woes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beirut

That was my concern.

I'm not questioning what's reasonable or not, only what's legal or not. Since this site concerns itself primarily with a copyrighted product - piracy and discussion of piracy techniques are clearly not allowed.

If anyone can help clarify all this it would be appreciated. Best we do so before we further the discussion of burning songs and so forth.

Thanks.

@ Xiahou, with all due respect, DRM is NOT about putting 2+2 together, or making sense.

@Beirut and others potentially interested: again, I still don't have a link that concerns songs, but I have something very close to that:

http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/index.cfm?newsid=7702

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Article

The US Library of Congress has rejected a petition that would allow US iPod users to copy their movies to iPods and other devices.

So THAT is very much illegal. Is the same thing regarding songs legal or not ?
As far as I know, again, it is not, but I don't have any articles at hand.
11-27-2006, 18:59
Blodrast

Re: I-pod woes

Xiahou: one more thing: the fact that it's possible to copy the songs to other devices, through a more or less convoluted/techy method, has absolutely nothing to do with its legality.

Yes, it is possible to do it - even without any additional tools or anything, but that doesn't mean it's legal.

Remember bypassing an entire layer of protection for certain CDs by simply keeping SHIFT pressed as you insert the CD, thus disabling the autoplay feature?
Well, that was very much illegal. Easy to do ? Sure. Apparently harmless ? Absolutely. Was it all done without using any external tools, just the "legal" components (i.e., your PC, and the CD) ? Yep. Illegal ? You bet your beans.
11-27-2006, 19:55
Big King Sanctaphrax

Re: I-pod woes

Quote:

I'm no lawyer, but it's a well documented feature of iTunes that you can burn your music to regular non-DRM audio CDs. AFAIK, it's also perfectly legal to rip your own personal CDs to listen to for personal use. So, if you put 2 and 2 together, I don't really see where it could be considered piracy. iTunes has what amounts to a legitimate method of bypassing it's DRM built into it (ie: Burning to a CD)

This is my understanding of it too. It's not as if we're discussing ways to hack iTunes to allow you to copy tracks to CD for personal use, it lets you do that anyway.
11-27-2006, 21:58
Xiahou

Re: I-pod woes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blodrast

Xiahou: one more thing: the fact that it's possible to copy the songs to other devices, through a more or less convoluted/techy method, has absolutely nothing to do with its legality.

It's a legitimate and intended use of iTunes to burn purchased music to a CD. Unless something drastic has changed, ripping your own personal CDs for your own personal use is also considered non-infringing use. Are you trying to say that iTunes audio CDs are somehow different? Find the part of the iTunes music store TOS agreement that says you may not rip burned CDs containing purchased music- I dont think it exists.

Now, if you were trying to cut out the middle man and copy iTunes DRM music losslessly into a non-DRM format I suspect it would violate their TOS- but no one is talking about that. Btw, it is important to remember that by burning and ripping CDs from iTunes you are losing at least a little sound quality- this is because iTunes songs are compressed in a lossy format to begin with, which must then be expanded to CD audio before being compressed into yet another lossy format (mp3) before you're able to use it outside of iTunes/iPod.

Lastly, let me again point out that none of this has to do with what DonC was asking for- he merely wanted to be able to use his iPod on more than one computer, which is a purely technical question. I linked to a page from Apple support explaining it, but he probably stopped reading the thread after people used it as a springboard for DRM tirades instead of actually answering his question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big King Sanctaphrax

This is my understanding of it too. It's not as if we're discussing ways to hack iTunes to allow you to copy tracks to CD for personal use, it lets you do that anyway.

Exactly, it's an intended feature, not a hack. When you burn it to audio CD, all DRM is removed- at that point it should be no different than any audio CD.
11-28-2006, 00:26
Blodrast

Re: I-pod woes

Yeah, my mistake for being so stupid to believe that information would actually be useful to people.

Removing, or circumventing, any protection on software (such as Apple's DRM that protects iTunes tracks), is illegal under the DMCA.

Do what you will with this information, I'm taking my "DRM tirades" out of here, but not before pointing out that Beirut asked explicitly for information regarding the legality of doing what Don Corleone asked.
11-28-2006, 00:44
Beirut

Re: I-pod woes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blodrast

Yeah, my mistake for being so stupid to believe that information would actually be useful to people.

Now, now. I think everyone here apreciates your efforts. I know I do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blodrast

Removing, or circumventing, any protection on software (such as Apple's DRM that protects iTunes tracks), is illegal under the DMCA.

Do what you will with this information, I'm taking my "DRM tirades" out of here, but not before pointing out that Beirut asked explicitly for information regarding the legality of doing what Don Corleone asked.

Thank you. I'm still trying to figure this out.
11-28-2006, 01:34
Beirut

Re: I-pod woes

Well! I still have found no certain answer to any of this. Unresolved, seems to be the main word I see.

Link to the DCMA.
http://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf

As far as my tree killing experience tells me, this document says "Thou may not!"

Unless someone can explain why and where it says "Though may!" or explains why this document is not relevant to what we're discussing, or can introduce some level of clarity to this, we will default to the Org.'s brutal Zero Tolerance policy towards piracy, that being that even the whiff of a sniff of a hint of a copyright infraction is a no-go.

Please, no discussion of copying techniques until this is resolved. Otherwise the thread will have to be closed.
11-28-2006, 03:22
Xiahou

Re: I-pod woes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blodrast

Removing, or circumventing, any protection on software (such as Apple's DRM that protects iTunes tracks), is illegal under the DMCA.

Removing the DRM that protects iTunes is a built-in feature via burning to CD. Have you used iTunes? You can burn purchased music to CDs with a click of a button- at that point, the DRM is gone. Anything you do such as ripping the resultant CD isn't removing DRM anymore- the DRM was gone the moment you burned the CD.
11-28-2006, 04:22
Beirut

Re: I-pod woes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiahou

Removing the DRM that protects iTunes is a built-in feature via burning to CD. Have you used iTunes? You can burn purchased music to CDs with a click of a button- at that point, the DRM is gone. Anything you do such as ripping the resultant CD isn't removing DRM anymore- the DRM was gone the moment you burned the CD.

Which is possibly illegal according to the DMCA.

"To remove or alter any electronics rights management information without authority."

Does the action of burning the music to CD remove the protection by itself regardless of the iTunes design, or does the iTunes software allow it to be removed?
11-28-2006, 05:43
Lemur

Re: I-pod woes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beirut

Does the action of burning the music to CD remove the protection by itself regardless of the iTunes design, or does the iTunes software allow it to be removed?

The answer would be yes on both counts. The Red Book CD standard does not have any DRM. iTunes burns standard CDs. Therefore the removal of the FairPlay DRM is inherent in the design of iTunes. Which means that if you were to suppose the removal of the DRM to be in violation of the DMCA, well, iTunes does it to itself.

A really desperate lawyer could probably sue Apple for violating its own rights under the DMCA, but it would be impossible to see a user's actions as piracy.

Does this help?
11-28-2006, 09:17
Xiahou

Re: I-pod woes

Actually, assuming it's accurate, the FairPlay Wiki article you linked should put the issue completely to rest.

Quote:

The protected track may be copied to a standard Audio CD any number of times.

* The resulting CD has no DRM and may be ripped, encoded and played back like any other CD. However, CDs created by users do not attain first sale rights and cannot be legally leased, lent, sold or distributed to others by the creator.