Am I the only one finding the battles boooooooring?

I used to be the type of player who could play custom battles forever... I did so in shogun, medieval and rome.

Now though, in medieval 2, I find it sooo uninteresting.

The archers refuse to fire where ordered to (and unless AI bugs as it usually does they only get one salvoe off).

Knights you order to charge usually stops some yards away from the target, and wander around aimlesly...


When units face of, only 10 out of hundred or so actualy fight, the rest stare threatingly at the enemy...

THE AI SUCKS AND THE NEW CODE MAKES COMBAT RANDON AND UNINTERESTING.

sorry for saying. I am a BIG fan of total war, but the combats in this edition is just 100% boring.

No, you're not alone.

I'm actually in the exact same situation, and it ruins the game for me (a game as dependant on battle as MTW2 is quite destroyed when the battle make you fell asleep...).

I actually tried to point this in this thread, and pointed the suspect (spacing between fighting units) in this thread, but there is (for now) a surprisingly low number of people who seems to have noticed it.

Hmm I can't say I've been experiencing those problems you seem to have.

My archers always fire at the enemy on which I tell them to, but obviously the amount of salvo's depends on the speed (IE: running or walking) the AI orders it's troops. Also, I've been hearing numerous things about that passive AI, but I have yet to experience that myself. That said, CA announced they'd fix this in the next patch, so have a bit of patience on that one.

My knights don't always engage the target I ask them to, could be because those arrogant knights have a will of their own ~;). but other than that they use their lances when I ask them to, and use their swords when I order them to. So no obvious problems with those either.

Your third point,
Well, maybe you put your units on guard mode (first two ranks fight only, depending of course on the unit depth) or lined your units up in too deep a rank. And it wasn't the case in the previous games that all the soldiers would fight at once, you should know that considering you played all the games. In Rome you had soldiers facing the other side, while their comrades where fighting mere inches to their other side. And in Medieval only the first rank would actually engage, the others would just await their turn. Now, obviously there is room for improvement in this game, concerning the fighting of individual soldiers. But I daresay that will be so in all the games to come.

You conclude the AI sucks on what basis ? The above mentioned ? Or have I missed something.

It's common knowledge this isn't chess quality AI, and I don't think a lot of players who frequent these boards actually fear or lose (to) the AI. But saying it sucks because of reasons which may even be ones own fault is a bit harsh. Even if it is one's own opinion.

:balloon2:

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Originally Posted by Dutch_guy

those arrogant knights have a will of their own ~;). but other than that they use their lances when I ask them to, and use their swords when I order them to. So no obvious problems with those either.

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How is this done? And to what purpose?

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Originally Posted by Dutch_guy

Your third point,
Well, maybe you put your units on guard mode (first two ranks fight only, depending of course on the unit depth) or lined your units up in too deep a rank. And it wasn't the case in the previous games that all the soldiers would fight at once, you should know that considering you played all the games. In Rome you had soldiers facing the other side, while their comrades where fighting mere inches to their other side. And in Medieval only the first rank would actually engage, the others would just await their turn. Now, obviously there is room for improvement in this game, concerning the fighting of individual soldiers. But I daresay that will be so in all the games to come.

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Just follow the links I gave, and see the screenshots yourself. They are quite telling.
Perhaps that in RTW too not all the men in a unit were fighting, but at least all the ones in the front were, and they were in a much tighter formation, making a mélée looking like a mélée.
Here, they seem to simply wait for their turn, and occupy a HUGE space for nothing, with a front-line made of one man every 5 metres. Ridiculous and killing any excitement the battles could create...

With AI I meant own unit reaction when you order them.

It just doesnt feel like they do what I tell them to. When I play custom games, I find myself quiting the battle before it ends out of boredom, something that has never EVER happened before...

I dont feel "in control" of my troops, I dont think it's fun to watch the fights.

I mean, I ran a testgame when I first got the gaem just to see the graphics. I took one unit of knights (me) and oen unit of peasents (computer).

I just wanted to watch the mayhem... You know, like in RTW.

Result when I pressed charge was: Knights strolled forward... stoped some yards away from target. The peasents strolled in and some 10 of them started fighting my knights. Some 3 min later the peasents had lost too many men and ran, my knights chased them to map edge but didnt really manage to kill the last ones off.

I had expected something like the scene from LOTR where the riders of Rohan charge the orc flank...

Instead I got a *yawn*

Don’t let Hollywood educate you.

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Originally Posted by Lycan

How is this done? And to what purpose?

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Originally Posted by Akka

Just follow the links I gave, and see the screenshots yourself. They are quite telling.
Perhaps that in RTW too not all the men in a unit were fighting, but at least all the ones in the front were, and they were in a much tighter formation, making a mélée looking like a mélée.
Here, they seem to simply wait for their turn, and occupy a HUGE space for nothing, with a front-line made of one man every 5 metres. Ridiculous and killing any excitement the battles could create...

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Lycan:

If you meant how you make them couch their lances, it's done by simply clicking once on an enemy. When close enough the knights will use their lances, and charge the enemy. If you double click on a foe, the knights will charge in using their swords.

Akka:

Well, I have seen such 'gaps' occur sporadically during combat. But thus far, only in sieges. And I don't quite see how this detracts from the gameplay. Or from the overall perception of the game. And as mentioned in your other thread, maybe this is the realistic approach ? I wouldn't know, and I don't know if it's for the best. But it doesn't ruin the battle for me, or for that matter the game, when I see this happen.

The initial charge is a bit less..hectic...than in Rome. But I think that's because you see less legionaries perform a jumping attack on an enemy. In M2 the units charge, and try to perform their killing moves. Which seems a lot less frantic then it happened in Rome.

:balloon2:

PS: I dont get my facts from hollywood movies, TBH I'm a history etacher here in sweden :book:

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Originally Posted by Dutch_guy

Well, I have seen such 'gaps' occur sporadically during combat. But thus far, only in sieges. And I don't quite see how this detracts from the gameplay. Or from the overall perception of the game.

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I can confirm that such huge spacing happens everywhere. It's simply that it seems that, to fight the "blob" of RTW, they made it so that fighting men need a large space aroung them.
Sure, no more "blob" due to this spacing, but no more mélée, which is quite ridiculous.

How does it detract from the gameplay or the game ?

Hu, well...

No mélée ?
In a medieval setting ?
Seeing basically 5-10 duels while it's supposed to be two formations of hundred of men crashing one into another ?
How can I immerse myself into an epic battle if there is such ridiculous spacing between my men (spearmen with a 5 m spaced formation ? Please !)

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And as mentioned in your other thread, maybe this is the realistic approach ? I wouldn't know, and I don't know if it's for the best. But it doesn't ruin the battle for me, or for that matter the game, when I see this happen.

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No, it's not realist. Formation of units have staying power partly because of the press and mass of men. Sure, you don't necessarily need the macedonian phalanx, with being men being shoulder-to-shoulder to maximize the "hedgehog effect" of the pike. But even the sword-wielding roman legion, with an admitedly "spaced" formation to allow men to fall back between the lines, weren't having such huge gap between them.
A formation so loose means that any tighter unit can simply trample them and push them off their way. It's not even a "loose" formation, damnit, it's a LACK of formation, they simply advance one by one in the direction of the duel and take their place each in turn. How this can be realist in any way when it comes to UNIT formations, movement and fighting ?

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The initial charge is a bit less..hectic...than in Rome. But I think that's because you see less legionaries perform a jumping attack on an enemy. In M2 the units charge, and try to perform their killing moves. Which seems a lot less frantic then it happened in Rome.

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Not only that, but the charges are much less powerful too, barely pushing men one step or two. I don't think that a cavalry charge should be absorbed so easily, and I don't think it's realistic for a horseman to have so little kinetic energy...

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

With AI I meant own unit reaction when you order them.

It just doesnt feel like they do what I tell them to. When I play custom games, I find myself quiting the battle before it ends out of boredom, something that has never EVER happened before...

I dont feel "in control" of my troops, I dont think it's fun to watch the fights.

I mean, I ran a testgame when I first got the gaem just to see the graphics. I took one unit of knights (me) and oen unit of peasents (computer).

I just wanted to watch the mayhem... You know, like in RTW.

Result when I pressed charge was: Knights strolled forward... stoped some yards away from target. The peasents strolled in and some 10 of them started fighting my knights. Some 3 min later the peasents had lost too many men and ran, my knights chased them to map edge but didnt really manage to kill the last ones off.

I had expected something like the scene from LOTR where the riders of Rohan charge the orc flank...

Instead I got a *yawn*

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I think that you are just not used to the new way you have to control troops in M2TW. Charging is very different to RTW. When you give the order to charge with cavalry, the unit starts walking towards the enemy, then they lower their lances and speed up, then finally charge at full speed. This needs a considerable amount of room to get up to charge speed - if you just click to attack close to the enemy the cavalry will leisurely walk into combat.

For foot troops charging, they again start to walk towards the enemy, and then pause when they are close to them. At this point the front rank changes to a charge animation, and then charges forward. The rear ranks then follow. It seems quite difficult to pull off a successful charge with foot troops, especially against an enemy that is trying to charge you. I've found the easiest way is to charge an already-engaged enemy.

I much prefer the way charging works in M2TW to RTW, I can't just band box my cavalry and attack, I have to carefully set things up. When you do set up a perfect cavalry charge, it feels a lot more satisfying.

A correctly executed cavalry charge is very much like LOTR scenes :)

I think the only thing that is somewhat bugged are charges, I like the general combat and the way it plays only charges sometimes mess up completely. At times I noticed this is because AI troops turn their backs for a short second and that makes my trrops switch to chase mode so they stop charging, but sometimes they just do something else for no good reason and do not charge correctly, apart from that I like the combat.

I totally agree with Akka on this one. Charging with infantry makes only for the first two lines to actually engage the enemy, the rest just lug around in the background watching the spectacle and making some defensive stance. This might be what Akka refers to as units spacing out. I have found that I have to make a infanty-unit run behind the enemy target and order the attack when all the men on top of the enemy to actually have my infantry engage in melee properly. This happens both in sieges and regular field battles.

Regarding charging cavalry I almost don't bother anymore. Lately I have started to use cavalry to chase routers or melee other cavalry only, because of the issues with charges.

Another thing about the combat-system in this game: why even bother displaying the stats of units? For the most part the stats don't tell you anything how they will perform against each other. You only know this through trial and error. I engaged a unit of Armored Swordsmen head on with a unit of Pilgrims (this was on Med, no generals) and it managed to pin the swordsmen and perform extremely well, considering the stats.

Kadagar_AV you dont need to use capital letters to get your point across. And spell properly. It might make people roll their eyes less when they're reading. The main complaints I have with the game will hopefully be resolved in the next two weeks or so. That is not to say that I don't agree with you. I just dont agree with the way you said it.

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Originally Posted by Biggus Diccus

I have found that I have to make a infanty-unit run behind the enemy target and order the attack when all the men on top of the enemy to actually have my infantry engage in melee properly.

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Well, actually...

I just tested that a few minutes ago, and it seems that, though the two units are in fact piling one on another... their soldiers simply don't fight !
There is the same number of "duelists" as when you tell them to attack in a regular fashion, who fight, and all the other just stand here doing nothing, while being on top of the ennemy 0_o

It's really disheartening -_-

i totally agree.the battle animations although pretty nice in movement, are too slow motion...the men should move much faster while fighting..and the battle lines should intertwine....when 2 large formations of soldiers charge against each other...they don't glue up in a straight line leaving the others idle

i dont find the game boring but yes my archers dont always fire when you tell them to and my knights sometimes stop and wonder aimlessly it sucks.
and i dont think my archers engage in melee.

My experience is that Archers fire when and where I tell them to but their salvos are far too slow - especiialy for 'Retinue Longbowmen' who in reality could do at leastt 4 a minute.

They used to be able to shoot their 2nd arrow whilst the first was still in the air.

Battles now are much more about micro management. Spaces between fighting units happen, but only if you do not handle units right. It is just getting used to a new style of playing. I think it is far more realistic. Keeping formation was very important in medieval battles, it is now too in MTW2.
Even nowadays still a few men still the fighting, the rest just stand and watches.

Akka you can find plenty of tips in the forums how the units properly charge, You will find out that a right charge can be devastating, vaporizing units in less than 30 seconds. Even heavy infantry.

Many siege battles I play, the AI tries to push through my lines, all units packed together, also in battles on normal battlefield by the way.
By now hundreds have whined about the passive bug, well we know that by now, why bother again complaining.

RTW was silly, you just had to bang your units against another units and you could go and have a coffee. MTW2 battles are a lot more fun because of the micro management.

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Originally Posted by monkian

My experience is that Archers fire when and where I tell them to but their salvos are far too slow - especiialy for 'Retinue Longbowmen' who in reality could do at leastt 4 a minute.

They used to be able to shoot their 2nd arrow whilst the first was still in the air.

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In reality (opening up a can of worms) they were expected to be able to get off ten aimed arrows a minute, and there are several examples throughout the Hundred Year's War when English and Welsh longbowmen were sent home because they couldn't do so.

I do understand why the units need the spacing to stop the dreaded blob and how its accurate to real life but it sure does look stupid, and its frustrateing when your men sit around 20 meters away from the actual fight chatting away about the weather, at least make them LOOK like they're trying to join in.

And as for the charge... ugh... the front row runs in fine and the rest sit there scratching their heads and slowly moveing up i had one instance where only 1 man ran into the enemy unit the rest gently strolled up without a care in the world, have the front rank fight only, fine no problem... but again make the rest at least look like they're trying!

Missile troops dont seem to get much fire off... i think their rate is a little slow but generally ok just maybe a tad more on the range.

Other than the general look of the fight it seems good, better than RTW i just wish there was a bit more aggresiveness to the battle sometimes.

Re: archers not aiming where you tell them to: There seems to be a bug where if you tell an entire group of archer where to aim they ignore you. If you select each archer unit one by one and tell them who to shoot, they seem to do what you tell them to. Yes, its a hassle, but its not a game killer.


Re: Charges not working. They work fine, YOURE JUST NOT DOING IT RIGHT. If you do it right they work pretty much every time. And theyre devastating when they hit - we're talking reducing a full unit of dismounted knights down to a handfull in a few seconds.

This isnt RTW. Get it right and you massacre the opposition - but the risk is there that your charge gets messed up and your knights get slaughtered.

Newsflash: Knights no longer uber unit. Thank god.

Of course i could be wrong, and it works perfectly on my machine and not on anybody else's - but from the posts i've seen its mostly people just running their knights at the enemy. THAT DOESNT WORK. WALK DONT RUN. (not shouting btw, just... um.... emphasising ;-) ).


Re: foot units not engaging, getting that here too on occasion.

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Originally Posted by Daveybaby

Re: archers not aiming where you tell them to: There seems to be a bug where if you tell an entire group of archer where to aim they ignore you. If you select each archer unit one by one and tell them who to shoot, they seem to do what you tell them to. Yes, its a hassle, but its not a game killer.


Re: Charges not working. They work fine, YOURE JUST NOT DOING IT RIGHT. If you do it right they work pretty much every time. And theyre devastating when they hit - we're talking reducing a full unit of dismounted knights down to a handfull in a few seconds.

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I think the archer thing is a side effect of the semi-intelligent battle line management where you select your entire line and click the enemy line and they automatically choose targets instead of all piling onto the one you clicked.

what's the trick to make charges work? I double-click the enemy, they run up and then stop to adjust formation and stroll into the enemy with swords out. I single-click the enemy, sometimes they just walk all the way up with swords out, sometimes they stop and pull lances and start charging but they almost always stop for formation and end up walking in with swords. it still fails most of the time even if the enemy is standing still and your knights are a good distance away facing directly at them.

wedge formation seems to work more often but generals can't do wedge.

the spacing thing is really annoying in city battles where the enemy has somehow massed a huge block of spears in the middle of a street and the heavy infantry attacking them will space out so there's like 10 guys fighting 60 spearmen and your units take horrible casualties.

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Originally Posted by Griz

I think the archer thing is a side effect of the semi-intelligent battle line management where you select your entire line and click the enemy line and they automatically choose targets instead of all piling onto the one you clicked.

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That would be great if it only did it when, say, 'fire at will' was on.

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what's the trick to make charges work? I double-click the enemy, they run up and then stop to adjust formation and stroll into the enemy with swords out. I single-click the enemy, sometimes they just walk all the way up with swords out, sometimes they stop and pull lances and start charging but they almost always stop for formation and end up walking in with swords.

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ALWAYS single click, NEVER double click. You also need to let your unit form up first, i.e. stop them far enough away, facing the target, wait for formation to stabilise, then click the target once and leave them to it. Yes, its a pain to set up, and requires a bit of time and space to do it in (which your enemy might not allow you to have) - but IMO thats a good thing - cos when it works its devastating.

And given enough space I find it works pretty much every time. Carnage ensues in enemy ranks.

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wedge formation seems to work more often but generals can't do wedge.

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Only just occurred to me that possibly which shape formation you use also makes a difference - i always use 2 deep wide formation. I've also noticed that once your cav get tired they wont charge as effectively (or maybe they only get a couple of charges before their lances are broken or something) but by that time i'm usually using them to chase down routers.

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Am I the only one finding the battles boooooooring?

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No you are definetly not. I find the battles very boring. I have no idea why I find them boring though. I loved RTW and RTR battles. Perhaps It was because I loved the factions and the unique fighting styles. I also loved NTW online battles. With M2:TW its just not as fun. It could be because of the lagging in larger battles or the Sprites, I'm not sure. The bad Sprites on Cavalry has certainly put me off. I am thinking back to RTW and RTR and the many fun battles I had. I think the M2:TW graphics are not ready for a TW game.

I am hoping MTR will be more fun, or maybe the patch.

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Originally Posted by Daveybaby

ALWAYS single click, NEVER double click. You also need to let your unit form up first, i.e. stop them far enough away, facing the target, wait for formation to stabilise, then click the target once and leave them to it.

Only just occurred to me that possibly which shape formation you use also makes a difference - i always use 2 deep wide formation.

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tried that, didn't work. general's unit is sitting a good distance away from a peasant unit, facing directly at them in 2-deep line, mouseover shows "ready" instead of marching. and yet single-click still results in a lazy stroll into the front lines most of the time. other times they start charging and then stop like 20 feet away even though the formation is fine.

when the charge actually goes off it kills at least 1/4 of the peasants and usually causes a rout, but I can't get them to reliably charge because of the constant formation nonsense.

I haven't noticed any difference in success rates with 2-deep or 4-deep formation, but most of the time you're better off with 2-deep for maximum impact and more guys actually fighting after the charge instead of picking their noses in the back of the formation.

Hmmm... okay well i guess i take it all back then. Weird - seems to work pretty reliably for me.

Just last night had a lone general attacked by a single unit of dismounted feudal knights. Was a bit nervous cos i knew that if i messed up the charge i was toast. 20 cav vs 60 dfk - after first charge down to 11 cav vs 18 dfk - a couple of cav lost when the charge hit, the rest before i could pull them back to regroup. 2nd charge routed the dfk.

H/H campaign, btw.

Gonna have a bit of an experiment tonight, methinks - see if i can get it to actually fail consistently.

I'm begging to agree.

My battles always consist of just shooting at the enemy standing still until my ammo is used up, and if anything is still standing then, charging with all my infantry = win. I need the patch soon D:

If you want to get the AI moving due to bug, just attack his shooters, on many occasions AI counter charges in full force.

No problems with arrow fire at will mode, but I have big problems with guns on fire at will mode. For some reason when enemy gets into close range they don't fire. Defensive stance is on, skirmish is off.

As far as cav charges go, I have the "wandering around" problem about 50% of the time, most likely cuz 1 or 2 enemy infantrymen is fighting one of the knights on the fringe of the formation, it screws up the charge from AI perspective maybe? Not sure myself for now.

There are some bugs when moving groups over rough terrain; I expect them to change formation to maneuver around some rocks but i don't expect them to stay in that formation once they're in the clear.

Even with all of these problems I enjoyed the graphics and animation very much and I hope they fix the gameplay issues soon