Different Walls

I have a suggestion for EB, it can't be completed in time for 0.8 so I've made a new thread. I've been thinking and there should be another level of wooden walls, perhaps replacing the stone wall for some factions (i.e. barbarians); and a smaller version of the stone wall, also replacing the vanilla stone walls. Both should be larger than the stockade but smaller than the stone wall, ideally both would have the same height.

Large Wooden Wall:
It should be a wooden wall where you could deploy your troops (like on stone walls), should be tougher, taller and thicker than the stockade but weaker, smaller and thinner than the stone wall. They could have a similar look to the stockade regarding the texture.

Small Stone Wall:
This wall should replace the normal stone wall for more 'civilized' factions. It would be very similar to the large wooden wall, except for toughness (the stone one being better) and looks. They should look like the stone building for the barbarians in vanilla (stone bricks with some wooden edges).

Regarding the other levels of wall: Stone walls would be built in a large city, and large stone walls in huge cities, thus replacing the much hated epic walls. :yes:


EB devs, I'm waiting for your comments :beam:

Actually, one of the projects we really need done is a proper barbarian stone wall for Celts and Iberians. Oppidum/Castrum walls. They were actually of remarkably tough construction, structurally superior in terms that they better deflected projectiles, were largely impervious to ramming (a ditch and a sloped wall does that), and, when later fortress walls were made to deal with cannon fire, it was barbarian walls they were closest to. A packed earthwork, with a stone face. If anything, barbarians (which is too vague, Dacians, Germans, Celts, and Iberians are all plenty different) do not need another wooden wall. They need an actual wall. In EB, if you hadn't noticed, they have no stone wall, which is a problem. Dacians should have a wall not unlike Greek walls, Celts and Iberians a well made earthwork and stone wall (though having a lower tier earthwork replace the 'wooden wall' after the palisade would be nice too; simple, slanted earthworks were themselves pretty good walls, though usually faced with wood, but were also much older and very common in northern Europe, extremely annoying CA didn't include anything like them). Incidentally, some Gallic cities had very Greek-like walls (Bibracte had a tall wall before the Roman conquest probably constructed by Greek or Roman engineers, but had the slanted bottom so ramming it was difficult).

Well, I still think that a wooden wall with proper deploying space is required. Perhaps a stone wall could be available to some barbarian factions?

I'm afraid that EB is very very seriously lacking 3D modellers, people you'd be needing for such a job. I'm not an expert on this subject though, and more important: I'm not and EB team member.

A stone wall would be appropriate, in the Hellenic style, for Dacians. Historically, Celts and Iberians had a form of wall that used stone that was far different, and I think we're rather loathe to use a wall akin to what Romans or Hellenes or similar folk might use for them. We really need a modeller to do this for us. A stone wall I might argue as a place holder though for them, at least until we get something better. And I agree, I don't like the palisade to wood wall (nearly the same damn thing) upgrade.

I'd prefer the second upgrade were a wood wall that could be stood on, or, in case of Celts and maybe others, a slanted earthwork for historical reasons. But, again, that relies on us getting modellers capable of doing it, who know how buildings work out (it's not the same as modelling units exactly from what I hear, but I really don't know much about that side of things), so we're sorta stuck in the mud, as it were, for the time being. I'm fairly confident by 1.0, we'll have those kinds of things, but I wouldn't hold your breath just yet. I'm sure we'll do lots of revamping of many things still left over from vanilla, but right now, it's units, the government system, the recruitment, scripting, all that good stuff, though we have toyed about, at times, with doing building work (I believe TA posted some good shots of some really cool steppe buildings that were sadly lost).

I suppose, just, you know, watch this space, and once we get on it, I'm sure we'll let people know, because doing the structures is a big part of really giving it an immersive historical look. Just, the game is built around battles, not architecture, so a lot of work is put into units right now (particularly at this moment for .80, cause we want there to be a lot of new stuff to play with, a lot better, more fleshed out recruitment, etc., as you can see our Iberian preview).

Also, the Huge Wall isn't completely inappropriate, at least for Carthage. The city of Carthage had a number of walls, which were incredibly massive beyond what the Large Wall represents.

Right, Anthony, thanks for replying. The core of the idea is having a deploy-able wooden wall without replacing the stockade, and a low quality stone wall. Mess up with the idea as much as you wish, I was just making the question come about ;)

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Originally Posted by Anthony

Also, the Huge Wall isn't completely inappropriate, at least for Carthage. The city of Carthage had a number of walls, which were incredibly massive beyond what the Large Wall represents.

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Does that mean that, in 0.8, certain cities will get several walls in them?

I don't know if it's possible in Rome, or else larger Celtic cities, Carthage, and probably others would have multiple walls. If it is possible, it won't be in 0.8.

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Originally Posted by Avlvs Libvrnivs Britannicvs Maximvs

Does that mean that, in 0.8, certain cities will get several walls in them?

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I dunno but my guess is its hardcoded otherwise someone would have allready done it.

That's my worry, otherwise we'd probably have multiple wall oppida, the great walls of Carthage, etc.

I can't even discuss this rationally, but shifty157 had plans in place that would have allowed us to completely transform the way walls work in RTW. In just one plan, we were looking at a wooden stockade atop an earthen rampart, ditch in front, ramp allowing access to the rampart by the defenders and the slope up from the ditch usable by the attackers (still had a flat area in front of the gates so as not to totally befuddle the ai). And then his hard drive crashed and everything was lost and he moved on to M2TW. Gah! :wall:

For as far as I can see: it's all a matter of excruciatingly accurate 'scripting'. AFAIK a settlement plan txt file tells the engine where to place 'pieces' of wall, and thus, if you wouldn't mind extraordinary lag (because of the sheer size involved) you could actually create a settlement with multiple walls. I'm not an expert on this though, but I recall reading a thread about a tool to calculate wall outlines and such. I believe it's somewhere in the modding guides/ tools subforum.

The problem this thread originally was about still stands: can EB include a new type of wall. My guess is not, as there is apparently a dire need for 3D moddelers... :no:

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Originally Posted by Kull

And then his hard drive crashed and everything was lost and he moved on to M2TW. Gah! :wall:

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Had he, by any chance, just bought a new PC?

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Originally Posted by Darkarbiter

I dunno but my guess is its hardcoded otherwise someone would have allready done it.

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Multiple walls and buildings on ramparts are perfectly possible...

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

The problem this thread originally was about still stands: can EB include a new type of wall. My guess is not, as there is apparently a dire need for 3D moddelers... :no:

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Can't you possibly recruit a moddeler? Ask around here and at TWC if someone's willing and able to help.

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Originally Posted by Corinthian Hoplite

Can't you possibly recruit a moddeler? Ask around here and at TWC if someone's willing and able to help.

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We have several very good unit modelers, but it seems that those with the know-how to work 3-D buildings are rarer than hen's teeth. Similar issue with good skelton guys. There's alin, and then....who?

That's sad to hear. Anyway, you could try, perhaps someone will show up...

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Originally Posted by Avlvs Libvrnivs Britannicvs Maximvs

Does that mean that, in 0.8, certain cities will get several walls in them?

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If I recall, "The Crusades" wanted to make double walls but found that it was impossible. Towers, putting troops apon, and doorways didn't work for the second wall.

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Originally Posted by Anthony

Also, the Huge Wall isn't completely inappropriate, at least for Carthage. The city of Carthage had a number of walls, which were incredibly massive beyond what the Large Wall represents.

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IMO, no faction should have them due to the fact that they completely unbalance the Siege gameplay due to the balllista gatling gun towers that the attackers have.

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Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus

If I recall, "The Crusades" wanted to make double walls but found that it was impossible. Towers, putting troops apon, and doorways didn't work for the second wall.

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Then how the chinese guys from Zhanguo made it work and SignifierOne, who actually discovered how, made it possible?

It's a little sad, but I don't think there's much that can be done about the AI in sieges, so they're always going to be a breeze through. Personally I wouldn't be bothered if walls/sieges were to be left largely untouched compared to other aspects of the game.