Jihad cheese, Crusade cheese

In the early phase of a Spanish campaign, I had taken Cordoba from the Moors, and was about to move on Grenada. I had the lone defending Moorish stack isolated on the Iberian peninsula. Just as I moved my army in to destroy it, the Moor army suddenly sported the Jihad flag, and used the movement points to retreat to a different position where I couldn't reach them in that turn. I destroyed them in the next turn, and I didn't notice if they had also picked up any crusader mercs. The current Jihad running at the time was to attack Baghdad, but it had been called many turns previously. The Moor army picked that particular moment to join Jihad, just for immediate strategic advantage. At least, that's what it looked like.

Later on, I did the same thing myself... joined the current Crusade with no intention of actually going to the Holy Lands (because I didn't have the resources yet), just to pick up some nice mercs for the invasion of Africa.

I probably won't do that again. It feels like too much of an exploit, and takes away from the role-playing you can get into on a "real" Crusade (or Jihad). But it bothers me to see the AI doing it. Has anyone else noticed an enemy AI army exploiting either Crusade or Jihad just for immediate strategic advantage?

I would consider this a bug, but maybe CA doesn't. Maybe there are enough historical precedents for sneaky use of Jihad or Crusade for other purposes? I'm not that familiar with the history.

Well, if you were a cynical commander you could certainly raise an army telling your boys you were going to march on the holy land... and then proceed to use the army to conquer other places... That's not outside of the realm of real world possibility.

"Don't worry boys, we'll reach the holy land... but we need provisions so we'll need to conquer these cities in northern africa as we go..."

In my Spanish game, my crusading army stopped over in Tunis just long enough to assault the castle. I brought my own catapults with me, and had one ship divert to Cagliari to pick up some militia to act as garrison. It hardly slowed the crusade down. They got off the ships, assaulted, got back on the ships, and continued sailing down the Med. Didn't even have a desertion. I'd probably stopped in Alexandria too, but the Crusade was already 5 turns old by the time my general joined (gathering troops) and I didn't think I could spare the time. I was right, as it turned out. The Danish army was on the river crossing near Antioch (the target) when I got off the boats and assaulted the city.

Seems pretty historically accurate I'd say. I forgot who and where and when, but it happened back in the day. One of the many crusades never really got to the Holy Land, rather just took some other city or cities and settled in.... or maybe they went afterwards? I'm sure a more historicall knowledgable Orgah will clear it up, but nonetheless, it's not entirely ahistorical.

Also, as an added detriment, crusaders do desert you know. If you don't keep going towards your destinatino a significant amount every turn. I suppose this was added just to counter such notions of non-holy aggression.

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Originally Posted by Wonderland

Also, as an added detriment, crusaders do desert you know. If you don't keep going towards your destinatino a significant amount every turn. I suppose this was added just to counter such notions of non-holy aggression.

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It also seems that if you take too many turns to get there, it stops mattering whether you're moving towards it or not, you still suffer massive desertion.

I have seen a French AI crusade siege non crusade targets, so the AI does it. Your generals will never leave, and it is benifitial to send as many as you can on the crusade. I usually join with 8 generals (if i have that many). You can take your time that way. Stop and top off your army with crusade mercs right before you attack. This way if you wanna stop and take Rhodes on the way, no desertion...

One crusade sacked Constantinopel and never reached the holy land, so I think we have a historical precedent for using crusades in a sneaky, sinister manner

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Originally Posted by Wonderland

Also, as an added detriment, crusaders do desert you know. If you don't keep going towards your destinatino a significant amount every turn. I suppose this was added just to counter such notions of non-holy aggression.

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True, and also the sudden jump in upkeep cost for mercs after it ends. Still, this could be used if your natural direction of conquest is towards the Holy Lands anyway, like Spain moving eastwards across northern Africa while rolling up the last of the Moors.

And if you leave those nice Crusader Seargents as garrison in a city you took with the crusader army, they will become normal units :2thumbsup:

If you got the histories channels crusades the crescent and the cross, from the documentary it really does make it seem that most were in it for the loot/power. The use of religion was just a diversion.

One of my crusades happened to bump into rebel Corsica on its way to Jerusalem. It took the castle (2 turns) - no desertions. However, rebel pirates destroyed the crusading fleet and there were no mercenary fleets available in Corsica... So, my crusade got stuck on the islan. A few turns down the road, after some serious desertions (i guess, the crusaders preferred to herd sheep in the mountains of Corsica), it was just my general holding the banner (spare a couple pilgrim units garrisoning the fort) waiting for the the castle + port upgrade so he could get on boats to move further. He did... As he moved out, I thought - what the heck, why not take Sardinia too with the help of some eager to crusade merc crossbows, so he did. Just when the fort in Sardinia fell, someone took Jerusalem. Anyway, the general got "can tell tales" trait.

I don't know if someone else has noticed it, but the ai uses the crusades to get some crusading units and does sometimes not move but just stand around. After the crusade it used this army, which did not suffer of any desertation to attack the cities nearby. I'm playing on vh/vh, but this is kind of nasty.
So I tried to block crusader armies in order to see if they suffer of any desertation. If you block for example as an islamic faction the crossings at Constantinopel with ships no one but you can pass. So I did this and waited for 20 turns, but the armies just stood there and did nothing, they did not loose any units. Again it is a little bit to much cheating (added together with the extra money the ai gets) for the ai, as you as a spanish for example, always suffer of desertation if you take the way to Jerusalem on land. In MTW crusading armies of the ai always lost people if they did not move on or attack their target.

I was on a crusade to Antioch, besieged the place, and 3 years in, my whole army deserted because i 'wasnt making enough progress'! It shouldnt count as no progress if you're outside the damn walls!

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Originally Posted by Turpitudo

I don't know if someone else has noticed it, but the ai uses the crusades to get some crusading units and does sometimes not move but just stand around. After the crusade it used this army, which did not suffer of any desertation to attack the cities nearby. I'm playing on vh/vh, but this is kind of nasty.

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This is what I've been wondering about (see first post)... whether the AI uses it as an intentional exploit, or if we're just seeing a random result of the AI tossing dice to see how many armies to throw into a current crusade or jihad.

That Moor army I mentioned sure looked like it suddenly went Jihad just to pick up some movement points, but that's giving a lot of credit to the AI. Would CA actually program something like that? Could they program something that smart? I'm not sure I'm seeing that level of sneaky intelligence in the rest of the campaign AI, so I'm wondering if it's just a result of other factors.

If the AI armies don't suffer desertion the same as the player armies, that's definitely a bug that needs fixing. I'm not sure I'm seeing that, but I'll keep an eye out for it.

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Originally Posted by Zenicetus

This is what I've been wondering about (see first post)... whether the AI uses it as an intentional exploit, or if we're just seeing a random result of the AI tossing dice to see how many armies to throw into a current crusade or jihad.

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I've seen the AI be able to maintain a crusader army after the crusade is over, and then use it to attack me, an ally. It happened like this...

In my 1st Spanish campaign, after securing Iberia I was drinkin' buddies with the Pope, so I asked for and got the very 1st crusade of the game, which I aimed at Marakesh to jumpstart my conquest of North Africa. Even starting in southern Cordoba and with the crusader movement bonus, it took me 2 turns to get to Marakesh, which I then besieged for 1 more turn to build rams. During that turn, France joined the crusade. On the next turn, I assaulted and captured Marakesh, and got the message that the crusade was over and successful.

During the AI portion of that same turn, a French crusading army became visible just north of the Pyrenees, heading south. And it didn't lose its cross marker like I expected, despite there being no crusades in existence by then. Next turn, the French crusaders crossed the mountains and entered my territory, still showing the crusader banner and still with a path pointing to Marakesh.

In the AI part of the 2nd full turn after the crusade was over, the French army lost its crusade banner and its path to Marakesh. So it then turn left and attacked my town of Zaragosa. Needless to say, I was pretty mad about it :).

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Originally Posted by Turpitudo

I don't know if someone else has noticed it, but the ai uses the crusades to get some crusading units and does sometimes not move but just stand around. After the crusade it used this army, which did not suffer of any desertation to attack the cities nearby. I'm playing on vh/vh, but this is kind of nasty.

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When I was playing my Byzantium campaign, a jihad was called against Constantinople. I fought off, in succession, a Turkish army, an Egyptian army, another Turkish army, a Moorish army (marched overland through Europe and came down from the northwest), and that looked like the end of it. However, the jihad didn't end. I had a spy roving around deep in Egypt, filling in the map, when he discovered a full-stack Egyptian army with the Jihad banner above it. It was standing right outside Jedda. The only thing I could think of was either the forming general was based in Jedda, or the core troops had been recruited in Dongola and ferried across the Red Sea. This was 1171 when I discovered that army, with a spy who was about 30 years old. That spy died of old age at 60, and that army was still standing there. For 30 years, it never moved, and never suffered a single desertion. I'm convinced it was bugged. In 1239 it suddenly started moving. I caught it and killed it near Acre, and at that point the "failed jihad" message came up. I halfway expected the general to die of old age.

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Originally Posted by Wonderland

Seems pretty historically accurate I'd say. I forgot who and where and when, but it happened back in the day. One of the many crusades never really got to the Holy Land, rather just took some other city or cities and settled in.... or maybe they went afterwards? I'm sure a more historicall knowledgable Orgah will clear it up, but nonetheless, it's not entirely ahistorical.

Also, as an added detriment, crusaders do desert you know. If you don't keep going towards your destinatino a significant amount every turn. I suppose this was added just to counter such notions of non-holy aggression.

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yeah they plundered Constantinople instead altho that had its reasons ;).. Constaninople Orthodox ;) get it?

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Originally Posted by Quillan

In my Spanish game, my crusading army stopped over in Tunis just long enough to assault the castle. I brought my own catapults with me, and had one ship divert to Cagliari to pick up some militia to act as garrison. It hardly slowed the crusade down. They got off the ships, assaulted, got back on the ships, and continued sailing down the Med. Didn't even have a desertion. I'd probably stopped in Alexandria too, but the Crusade was already 5 turns old by the time my general joined (gathering troops) and I didn't think I could spare the time. I was right, as it turned out. The Danish army was on the river crossing near Antioch (the target) when I got off the boats and assaulted the city.

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when the hell do the danes crusade? lol

I've seen a Danish army in every crusade in two campaigns now. They seem very pious to me, although it does sometimes cause a problem. In my Byzantium campaign, a Danish crusade army had crossed the Hellespont heading towards Antioch when Milan took it, ending the crusade. Apparently shortly afterwards the general leading it died, because it lost the character model and was led by a captain. It hung around in my lands for about 10 turns, then turned rebel. It was a full stack, and I had to pull a frontier army back to deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Joshwa

I was on a crusade to Antioch, besieged the place, and 3 years in, my whole army deserted because i 'wasnt making enough progress'! It shouldnt count as no progress if you're outside the damn walls!

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Beg to differ. Your happy little army of religious fanatics and ne'er do wells want to assault the heathen in a glorious charge, not to sit around dying of disease outside the walls for six years. Doesn't a long siege count as 'not making progess'? They've probably got disenchanted and wandered off to find some saracens to beat up.

I have to admit that as a Spainish faction one of the easiest ways to reclaim the region to to jump onto a Crusade to the middle east, bulk up with crusade mercs and then make a beeline for Cordoba. As long as you are quick about it it is pretty easy to kick the Moors out of Spain and they don't even get too offended because they accepted a ceasefire and reopened trade...

Interestingly in this game the Crusade was called against Antioch and it is Rebel so in addition to reclaiming Iberia I also successfully completed a crusade and am still at peace with the Muslim factions...

Is this exploiting the Crusading mechanisim... I don't know, I mean it is not like I attacked a Catholic faction, and I did not slow done too much...

After retaking the two Moorish provinces in Iberia I then proceeded to march across North Africa to carry on with the crusade but started getting a lot of desertion. I then got up to the coast and hired some boats to carry us the rest of the way with brief stop in Sicily to pick more crusader mercs and with this fast travel suffered no more desertions issues...