Best missile unit (non gunpowder)

I have beend experimenting a bit with various missile units and I came to a conclusion that the best unit is - Genoese Crossbow Militia.

This came as a suprise since I would rather expect English to lead the way, maybe with French Aventurier as follow up.

Meanshile I have done some testing, all on flat ground, Medium difficult and on still, not rainy day. Both sides deployed in loose formations, firing on long/medium ranges. The results below show the final numbers in units (starting 60) after depleting ammo by both sides:

Gen. Crossbow Mili. vs Longbowmen
36 - 20

Gen. Crossbow Mili. vs Yoeman Archers
33 - 6

Gen. Crossbow Mili. vs Aventurier
56 - 5

Gen. Crossbow Mili. vs Pav. Crossbow Mili.
42 - 25

Gen. Crossbow Mili. vs Musketeers (just to see how they do vs gunpoder unit)
0 - 41

I have also tried on Hard setting and i got
Gen. Crossbow Mili. vs Longbowmen
44 - 7
51 - 6

These all seem to be amazing results, especially since it is a Militia unit! And an early one! Add to this a decent melee skill and low price.
The main disadvantage is longer reload time, but if used correctly this doesnt hurt that much.

Anyone has other experiences?

Genoese crossbow militia are very useful, both in that they have very good defence and their missile attack is excellent. Genoese crossbowmen (built in a castle not a city) are even better.

However, i do find that longbowmen are better overall, maybe not in a straight missile on missile duel, but in that they can deploy stakes befoe the battle, and even in an open field give you a strong defensive position. Retinue Longbowmen lead the way as far as English missile troops go, they are by far the most useful missile troops i have yet used

Must say i have to agree with Cassiusdio.

The main strength of the Longbowmen i have found when deployed in large numbers is the ability to decimate an enemy army very very quickly.
In large engagements 5 or 6 units of Longbows will cripple the enemy army quick time and leave very little for their armoured swordsmen to mop up,expecially when on the defensive as Cassiusdio says.

Thats not to say the Genoese are poor as i've played a Milan campaign and they are awesome units and at 100 florins upkeep they're a steal.For longetivity during a long battle they are worth their weight in gold due to the ammount of ammo they carry and are brilliant at defending walls.Having said that the Retinues are no slouches in melee either it has to be said.

I think CA got the balance between these two spot on as both are great in the right situation but in a large battle i'd take the longbowmen.

I agree that Genoese Crossbow Militia are a great ranged unit, but I'd still take the top of the line Longbow over em. In tests you can give both sides time to fire all their ammo, but even vs the AI, I seldom fire all my ammo when I'm playing with Genoese Crossbows. The longbows however I can fire everything I have quickly, then finish it all up with a charge (cavalry or otherwise.) For the ease and costs though, they are one of the best units.

The obvious intent of this thread is for foot missile units.

I don't have a wide range of experience on that yet. I am anxious to seek how some of the Turkish units stack up.

Not trying out ottoman infantry sort of left a gap in this... :P

Me too, I would like to see the same test with turkish archers. ottoman infantry is quite ok, and janissary archers kick *ss but are very expensive.

the unit I used the most for missles so far is the yoeman. The ROF is a decimating force and the range is fantastic the defensive power is great too and its not too hard to get them with silver shields in decent numbers the first 40 turns. The retinue requires more work especially to armour indecently also I find as english spawning archers from a base I use nottingham means the appearance of the Forresters Guild pretty quickly which eventually gives you the fabled sherwood archers too.

If you are playing english I would suggest 1 castle permanently dedicated to archery it pays great dividends in the long run.

Can someone please tell me if English faction can train crossbowmen? I have added all "building" but still can't get crossbowmen. Sorry for the n00b question.

Just for kicks, I had to try my beloved Scots Guards. Several were killed during the time it took them to close the distance with the Genoese, but once hand-to-hand combat was joined the Italian dogs were soon routed, and only a handful survived to flee the field...

...just 'cause they've got longbows doesn't mean they have to kill with them. :beam:

are the pavise xbowmen so inferior compared to Genoese xbowmen? they have virtually the same gear, same training,... why such big difference?:wall:

@ rookie7, nope. No xbows for brits. Though longbows are far better IMHO.

To have both missile units expend all their ammo is hugely unrealistic as no semiintelligent commander would even dream of letting his longbows stay there and get shot.

Not only is the rate of fire devastating, ability to use stakes nerfs enemy cav charges and reroutes them. They also slow infantry significantly.

thie dismounted dvor are a prity hard core unit - they should be included ina ny test

Throw in some Byzantine Guard Archers as well - they seem pretty good.

Mounted Dvor > All ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alatien

I have beend experimenting a bit with various missile units and I came to a conclusion that the best unit is - Genoese Crossbow Militia.

This came as a suprise since I would rather expect English to lead the way, maybe with French Aventurier as follow up.

Meanshile I have done some testing, all on flat ground, Medium difficult and on still, not rainy day. Both sides deployed in loose formations, firing on long/medium ranges. The results below show the final numbers in units (starting 60) after depleting ammo by both sides:

Gen. Crossbow Mili. vs Longbowmen
36 - 20

Gen. Crossbow Mili. vs Yoeman Archers
33 - 6

Gen. Crossbow Mili. vs Aventurier
56 - 5

Gen. Crossbow Mili. vs Pav. Crossbow Mili.
42 - 25

Gen. Crossbow Mili. vs Musketeers (just to see how they do vs gunpoder unit)
0 - 41

I have also tried on Hard setting and i got
Gen. Crossbow Mili. vs Longbowmen
44 - 7
51 - 6

These all seem to be amazing results, especially since it is a Militia unit! And an early one! Add to this a decent melee skill and low price.
The main disadvantage is longer reload time, but if used correctly this doesnt hurt that much.

Anyone has other experiences?

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This is remarkable because it's already been proved (unless I got it all wrong) that Longbows wtfpwn all xbows. Just have a look at Reapz archery tests.

After playing both the English and Milan campaign, I would say it is a toss up between the Gen xbow militia and the longbows. Each has it's unique advantages. The standard gen xbows are amazing too, but it is the economics of the militia units that make them amazing. Plus you have no need to convert cities to castles and can make tons of $$ and it is so simple to keep them replenished.

Well, you tested them all once, if the genoese always reload while an enemy salvo hits them, they will do a lot better than if they are just about to fire and thus exposed to the enemies' missiles.

One on one tests aren't really a very good indicator of the strength of missile units. If I have longbows, dvor, ottoman, etc., I wouldn't get into a missile contest with genoese crossbow militia. I do more damage faster than they do, so I would just target something else rather than missile units that are armored and have a huge shield.

That's wise coz killing missile is the domain of cavalry anyway.

Yep, faking charges with cav is often enough to disrupt enemy missile firing. I can sometimes mess up their skirmishers at the very start with a quick charge of my cav units.

Casualties are quite low from enemy fire when I'm in loose anyways. Smashing their melee troops (who are always in tight) is more important. Later, my troops can sweep aside their depleted melee force and any remaining skirmishers with ease.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John Johnston

Just for kicks, I had to try my beloved Scots Guards. Several were killed during the time it took them to close the distance with the Genoese, but once hand-to-hand combat was joined the Italian dogs were soon routed, and only a handful survived to flee the field...

...just 'cause they've got longbows doesn't mean they have to kill with them. :beam:

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Scots guards kick arse seriously, next campagin i play ill proberly end up playing as france just for them.

can y'all post the stats of the missile units being discussed please?

If foot archers, go with Dismounted Dvor. I love those units.

As many people have pointed out, the main purpose of missile units is not to
kill missile units, and if there is one missile unit that is not worth shooting at,
it would be one with a pavise shield.

I would not even rank the genoese crossbow millitia among the top ten
missile units. In the field I would rather have longbowmen with stakes (I'm
not even talking about missile cavalry), on the wall I would rather have dvor,
scots or aventurers (or anyone who can fight hand to hand), and on an
assault, pretty much anyone is better.

Nothing beats french "scot guards". They are almost heavy infantry as melee units. Besides they are trained in cities, which makes them the absolute city defenders.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by myz

can y'all post the stats of the missile units being discussed please?

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Code:

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Mounted Dvor:

Ranged Attack:        10
Missile Range:        120

Attack:                11
Charge Bonus:        4

Armor:                5
Defense Skill:        7
Shield:                4
Total Defense:        16

Attributes:        AP Missiles



Dismounted Dvor:

Ranged Attack:        11
Missile Range:        160

Attack:                11
Charge Bonus:        3

Armor:                5
Defense Skill:        4
Shield:                6
Total Defense:        15

Attributes:        AP Missiles



Scots Guard:

Ranged Attack:        9
Missile Range:        160

Attack:                12
Charge Bonus:        3

Armor:                8
Defense Skill:        9
Shield:                0
Total Defense:        15

Attributes:        AP Missiles

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If you notice, Scots Guard may be slightly better in melee, but Dismounted Dvor are notably better at range, and with no shield, Scots Guard only have 8 defense against ranged fire whereas Dvor have 11 (5 from armor, 6 from shield), so a fight between the two would be relatively even.

Mounted Dvor would naturally turn Scots Guard into a red smear on the landscape however...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Handel

Nothing beats french "scot guards". They are almost heavy infantry as melee units. Besides they are trained in cities, which makes them the absolute city defenders.

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They also cost much more to train and upkeep, and require the top level city upgrade to produce. Genoese crossbowmen are much easier to build (readily available in towns and castles), as well as much cheaper and more numerous. Also, and I know that the AI often loses, but my genoese crossbows with partial plate armor often manage to beat or at least tie scots guard in a custom 1v1 battle on VH.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tuidjy

As many people have pointed out, the main purpose of missile units is not to
kill missile units, and if there is one missile unit that is not worth shooting at,
it would be one with a pavise shield.

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I completely agree with Tuidjy on this one. That being said, you can sometimes find yourself needing to fire on other missle units, and such head to head comparisons in the open field can be useful if done correctly. I would suggest that the primary useful thing to know is not how many kills a unit can inflict with all of its ammo, but rather how many it can inflict in a given length of time, as that tells you the killing power of the unit and therefore its effectiveness for you in battle.

Think of it this way: let's say the enemy infantry is closing with your stationary front rank of infantry, and you intend to thin his ranks with your archers. The unit has until the soldiers reach your line to get its job done, which is the same amount of time whether you have crossbows or longbows. It doesn't matter that crossbows could kill the entire enemy army with all of their ammo where longbows would only kill 60% of it - it only matters that the longbows will decimate those soldiers in that limited span of time far better than crossbows will, because their increased rate of fire is a huge advantage, and means they are more effecient killers in the kills-per-second sense. I've not had time to do empirical tests to determine kill rates against a given standard enemy unit, but it seems clear from in-game observation that high-end longbows do in fact wreck equal enemy units faster than any crossbows do, and thus should prove more useful if battles are fought at any reasonably aggressive pace (i.e. targets become engaged in melee sometime before archers are completely out of ammo). Crossbows could have an edge in situations where the armies just stand there and expend all missle ammo... but in theory, this should never even be close to happening as both armies should be actively engaging each other.

If you want to apply this to your missle vs. missle battles, the thing to do is stop both units when either is out of ammo, as then they've been active for the same amount of time. This is also the most realistic (as others have pointed out) because archers with no more ammo do not wait around to be slaughtered by crossbows unless they are commanded stupidly.

Admittedly, longbows can get more volleys off in a certain time than x-bows, but I find, due to the trajectories involved, each x-bow volley is considerably more damaging than an archer volley - with the flat trajectory, x-bows are more likely to hit other units on the way/after as well.