Holy heck... I just ended a war!

Ok, despite everyone's complaints I constantly find the diplomacy in this game surprisingly sophisticated...

I'm playing as the Moors and I've managed to remain at peace with everyone while building up a strong army by simply reinforcing Cordoba every turn while campaigning against Timbuktu and the province to the west of it. Meanwhile my diplomat has been travelling the world establishing trade rights and alliances with anyone and everyone he can.

I had managed to get him all the way to Byzantium and made an alliance with them (Already managed alliances with Portugal, Spain, France, England, the HRE, Milan, Venice, the Papal States, and Sicily) and then I decided I should send him down to the Turks and Egypt since I don't have alliances with my Islamic brethren just yet. I didn't realize that Byzantium was at war with the Turks at the time... but when my diplomat arrived at the nearest Turk controlled city I noticed some Byzantine campaign armies in the region and realized I wasn't likely to be able to make alliance with the Turks due to the conflict. Still, I thought I'd establish trade rights at least, since the Turks control some lucrative port cities...

To my surprise alliance was one of my possible offers, so I made my standard alliance and trade rights in exchange for map information offer, and they accepted, and the war between Byzantium and the Turks ended.

So... Basically I just negotiated a ceasefire between two other factions :)

Last night, I received a mission to open diplomatic relations with the Holy Roman Empire. Well, I'm playing Egypt and considering I was at WAR with the HRE and they had a Crusade marching my direction, I thought that rather curious.

So I go to their capital and think, what the heck, they're sending a Crusade my way so they'll want map information. Since the Crusade to Jerusalem is coming whatever I do, I offer it to them and ask what they want in return. To my amazement, they offer a ceasefire. I've also spotted their Crusade by now. It's in the Balkans, apparently on its way to the Black Sea to either cross by sea or veer down to Constantinople.

I take the ceasefire, then offer another deal with trade rights. They accept again.

So here's the deal. Egypt and the HRE aren't going to come to blows over Jerusalem for several turns yet. In the meantime, we both decide to make a little money. My only cost is some map information that won't do them any good or me any harm anyway.

In the meantime, I've had an allliance with the Turks that has held for about 40 turns. He started moving armies my direction, but stopped after I took a huge stack out of one of the provinces bordering his. Somebody else has noticed that "backstabbing" alllies become more loyal when they're not in the shadows of huge armies of yours. Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not.

Now tell us how long it lasts Musashi. That's going to be a key part. I doubt very long, since the Byz/Turk default relationship modifier is I think either -2 or -4.

Cheers!

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Originally Posted by Musashi

Ok, despite everyone's complaints I constantly find the diplomacy in this game surprisingly sophisticated...

To my surprise alliance was one of my possible offers, so I made my standard alliance and trade rights in exchange for map information offer, and they accepted, and the war between Byzantium and the Turks ended.

So... Basically I just negotiated a ceasefire between two other factions :)

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This was a feature in the previous TW series also (at least in Rome). If a target faction accepts an alliance while being at war with someone else who is your ally, the two factions cease attrocities (for some time).

However, I agree with you - diplomacy does make way more sense in MTW 2 than in any other previous games. Many people complain that the AI does not like them for "no good reason". Usually, in my games, there is some reason... (spying on them, assassinating, being at war with their ally or their ally just attacking you, close borders, not having paid attention to the faction for some time, etc.). The only complaint I have so far is that maintaining long-trading relations does not seem to improve standing between two factions. IMHO it should.

I had one case where the french accepted a big gift from me and alliance even though I saw in their priorities that they wanted war. A few turns later, they attacked. So what, I think, it makes sense. Why wouldn't they take my money even if they knew they would attack, if I was foolish enough to give it to them (I gave it just to see what would happen).

I generally find that maintaining overwhelming force right at the border has a tendency to keep allies in line though... It just has to be really overwhelming, enough to crush their army like a bug.

I've also had to maintain a fairly serious navy though, or Portugal decides to see if they can harass me at sea, even though it's clear I can march on their capital and have it in flames within a year.

Still, I've had a really good run this time with the Moors... I haven't been at war with a single faction yet, and I have timbuktu and Arguin, Tunis, and Tripoli. Basically I headed south and east immediately and only reinforced Cordoba with militia units. By creating a full stack army of militia there I've managed to keep Spain and Portugal in line while I moved. I ignored the mission to take Valencia, preferring not to split my forces in the Iberian Peninsula, and instead sent troops to Timbuktu and Tunis at the beginning of the game...

I've also taken the islands of Cagliari and Ajaccio because the council of nobles demanded it.

I converted every settlement except for Tripoli and Granada to cities, for the economic boom. My merchants in Timbuktu and Arguin are pulling in almost 3000 florins per turn and I'm riding a wave of money.

I'm basically going to fortify my borders and wait to be attacked, so I can keep my "very reliable" reputation :D

The only time I have been rather impressed with the diplomacy, and hence the strategic AI, was when I (HRE) launched a crusade against Danish held Stockholm (excommed).

My only friends (not allies though), the English joined up on the first turn (I was going to get Stockholm no matter what since I attacked from Sealand, the easternmost Danish island in the game). So their crusade is moving up Flanders.
The next turn I 'wake' to a huge English fleet blockading Århus. DAMN! Then I was officially at war with every faction I had a border with.
When I looked at the diplomatic relations I saw the Danes had managed to wrest a ceasefire from the English, and apparently convinced them to attack me.

I must say I was pissed off at first, but then the beauty of the intrigue of the Danish diplomacy took hold. They must have spent a lot of money to buy the English. But the result was that a major english army would be sitting deep deep in my territory when I captured Stockholm. No way I could stop such an army if it had decided to attack Frankfurt or some other city.

'Unfortunately' it chose to head back to Bruges... And so the English war stagnated into a cold war as with most of my enemies.

Well, I enticed the Spanish into a foolish assault. I built 3 Urban Militia and 3 Crossbow Militia and sent them with a general to garrison a bridge on the border of my territory and Toledo... And assassinated his cardinal who had been forcing me to keep 3 Imams in Cordoba (PS: Catholic priests are TOO DAMN EFFECTIVE).

He was irritated with me and saw a stack of six militia units and thought he could crush it... sent in a full stack army and, naturally got his rear end handed to him.

I should mention that Moorish Urban Militia rock... they have a base defense of 18... My three units of Urbies fended off that entire army (Which included a unit of Bodyguard cav, a unit of Feudal Knights, and a unit of Knights of Santiago, plus 2 units of dismounted Feudal Knights and assorted other infantry) long enough for my crossbows to break most of them, and then I charged my general's squad with orders to break through clear to the other side of the bridge, and his whole army routed.

So now I have a reputation of "Trustworthy" or something like that (Went up from Very Reliable) and the Spanish have "Despicable" for attacking such a noble ally lol. And I beat their attack off with little more than a bloodied nose, and now I have an excuse to sack Toledo... and I don't have to worry about a Pope breathing down my neck for retaliating because I'm a Muslim faction.

Yay me!

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Originally Posted by Musashi

nd now I have an excuse to sack Toledo... and I don't have to worry about a Pope breathing down my neck for retaliating because I'm a Muslim faction.

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If you do decide to have a go at that, I'd honestly like to hear how the Papal Mafia and his Capos actually respond to your cheerfully mulching Spain. Regardless of who broke the alliance, from reading other's posts, attacking a catholic faction will reduce your standing with them all. Let us know how you go about, this, and what the results are.

Cheers!:balloon2:

Will do. I might have to sack Valencia on the way to Toledo as he's trying to menace me with an army from Valencia in order to put Granada and Cordoba in check... The obvious response is to use the assault army I've been building in Granada to sweep the army out of my way and then proceed to Toledo.

Musashi if I were you I would not have bothered keeping 3 Imams to counter the priest. Send them to his provinces and he will be forced to pull his priests back, eventually.

Nice read.

Well, further reports from the front:

Valencia has fallen to the holy conquering flames of Islam, and 2000 Christians were put to the sword (Resulting in a 5000 florin windfall for the Holy War Machine).

My global reputation has gone up to "Very Trustworthy", I'm still allied with all of Christendom (Aside from the soon to be nonexistant Spaniards), and my relations with the Papal States are listed as "Amiable".

I laid siege to Valencia with my offensive cavalry force, intending to wait them out and devour them when they sallied, which is my preferred method (I hate taking losses I don't have to) but a couple of turns into the 8 turn siege, the Spaniards began massing a force in Toledo with the obvious intention of lifting the siege from without... So I quickly moved my bridge garrison from the Toledo-Cordoba bridge to the Toledo-Valencia bridge, and brought up another garrison force to the Toledo-Cordoba bridge from Cordoba.

The Spanish King proved once again his lack of strategic acumen, falling into my trap a second time and wasting 2000 lives in a futile attempt to secure the bridge and relieve Valencia. The general who held two critical bridges for the Sultan was given great honors for his service.

With the defeat of their army at the bridge, the hopes of the Valencian defenders were utterly dashed, and they made a desperate attempt to break the siege by sallying forth into the teeth of the Sultan's mighty horse army. As usual, the ignorant Christians tactics were unsophisticated. The predictable charge of their overarmored knights was countered and crushed by a flanking movement of the loyal Tuareg camel riders, the Arab cavalry fell upon their archers like the wrath of Allah, and what few spearmen they bothered to field were subjected to a great hail of javelins from the Desert Cavalry, and quickly broke and fled.

The Arab Cavalry pursued the routing army into the castle and massacred them in the inner keep.

Thus fell the castle at Valencia. Surely the Infidel's infestation at Toledo cannot be far behind!

I killed the Pope only to have my enemy to become Pope and I then got excommunicated :wall:

I love little things like that !

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Originally Posted by Whacker

If you do decide to have a go at that, I'd honestly like to hear how the Papal Mafia and his Capos actually respond to your cheerfully mulching Spain. Regardless of who broke the alliance, from reading other's posts, attacking a catholic faction will reduce your standing with them all. Let us know how you go about, this, and what the results are.

Cheers!:balloon2:

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Originally Posted by monkian

I killed the Pope only to have my enemy to become Pope and I then got excommunicated :wall:

I love little things like that !

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As the Byz, I was getting a bit antsy at a large Venetian crusader army lurking round on my westernmost border (N. Greece, Albania) so as soon as they boarded a single, rather depleted fleet I decided it was best to whack 'em and get it out the way-safe to say, after the engagement (which I'm still not sure finished them off) I got a notification saying my relations to all the catholic factions had pretty much hit its lowest possible level.
Now, Im at war with the HRE (probably the strongest cath. faction, as well as Venice and Hungary, and the rest haven't joined in only because they're too far away. It would be quite interesting to see how reconciliation pans out...

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Originally Posted by Musashi

And assassinated his cardinal who had been forcing me to keep 3 Imams in Cordoba (PS: Catholic priests are TOO DAMN EFFECTIVE).

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You tell me, in my short-lived Spanish campaign I had to keep three priests in Toledo and Leon because there were respectively one 3 piety and one 2 piety Imams there and muslim/heretic faith just wouldn't go down... In fact, I tried to kill those guys so often and for so long they both turned ultra-paranoid (+4 or +5 to personnal security), and the Toledo one ended a mystic, convinced that so many assassins were god's way of saying he was right :wall:. In the end, even a 18 skill assassin that had dealt with 3/4th of the Moorish royal family had a mere 32% chance to kill the 2 piety one (24% for the 3 piety mystic)... and died trying :furious3: .

I think it's just easier to build-up faith when you're the underdog than to convert the last remnants of another religion, i.e. those first 20-30% are a breeze, but going from 90 to 98% takes ages. Considering there still are die-hard Stalinists around, I'd say it's pretty realistic :laugh4:

I have also noticed that relations will suffer If your armies march or camp on any land that you don't have military access through, even allies.

Diplomcy can be very useful, not only are there the obvious relationship benefits, but if you regularly communicate with neighbours you can keep other nations out of a war, or, with the right motivations convince other nations to enter the war on your side.

I am currently playing as the HRE and, despite the fact that i am surrounded by several major powers, i have very rarely had a conflict with more than 2 opponents, my current campaign against the poles (they atacked me) looked like it might spiral into a 2 front war when the french came to the aid of their allies. after smashing a couple of polish armies, the french were quite content to sign a ceasefire in exchange for Metz. i should think i could force them to give it back once the Polish are dealt with

Politics is very useful, but you can use it for far more than simply maintaining the status Quo, don't be afraid to make short term political and territorial losses for long term gain

Ending other faction's wars through your diplomacy was quite common in RTW (though ceasefire didn't last).

What's interesting in MTW2 is that now you can keep allies even if they are waging war against each other :inquisitive: .

I dunno if it should really work like this - but I'd like to see what happens when you get dragged into a battle of your allies (you know - when your stack is close to others' battles, only that now you're allied with both of them). :juggle2:

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Originally Posted by Slaists

This was a feature in the previous TW series also (at least in Rome). If a target faction accepts an alliance while being at war with someone else who is your ally, the two factions cease attrocities (for some time).

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I absolutely HATE this feature, because it works the other way around--3rd parties can stop YOUR wars, that you WANT to fight, without you getting a say in it at all. This has also always been a "TW" feature. It works like this:

• You are allied with Country A.
• You are at war with Country B (for a good reason, like you've spent the last 20 turns building up to conquer them).
• During one of the AI's turns, Country B makes an alliance with Country A.
• This has the effect of immediately stopping your war with Country B, withou you having any chance for diplomacy in the matter. :furious3:
• If you go ahead and attack Country B again, you will automatically break your alliance with Country A, even if you have perfect relations with them and they don't like Country B as much as you. :furious3:

Once this happens, you're just screwed. There is no diplomatic option for you to coerce/sweettalk your "ally" Country A into breaking their alliance with Country B. Your only hope is to kill off all diplomats and princesses of both Country A and Country B before they can ally, but that's often not possible.

This seems to be a very common AI strategy, and I don't mind the idea in and of itself. What I hate is my complete lack of input in the process. No diplomat asks me if I wanted to end the war or anything; peace is just rammed down my throat. I would much prefer some sort of diplomacy screen popping up along the lines of this:

Country A: "We have received an emissary from Country B who wants us to arbitrate a truce between you and them. We've been buds with you for a long time and don't want to piss you off, but they're offering us X, Y, and Z, which we find attractive. What will you give us that's better?"

Then you'd at least have SOME say in what is a very important matter affecting your whole game plan.

And if you don't win the bidding war, you should at least have some diplomatic options you can use on allies to coerce them break alliances with 3rd parties, become vassals, "submit or we will attack" stuff, etc.

I agree with Musashi, I find the diplomatic aspect of the game very important and far more realistic. (playing as the spainyards, still havent unlocked any Islamic factions) I was in a pretty deep war with Portugal and the Moors, as well as the pope breathing down my back and using his puppet frenchmen to assial me from the north, I made a "deal" with the Moors, giving them back Granada in exchange for an alliance, and what-do-you know, they send an army up by Cordoba, right by my army besiegeing the city, and the next turn, the portugese send in troops from the west, and then a gigantic battle insued, with the Moors on my side. It has probably been the coolest part of the game so far, the battle was amazing. And afterwards, I traded my land north (Bordeaux and Rennes, who cares, it's France!) to the Pope, and he welcomed me back from excommunication, leaving me free to crush the Portugese and sieze all of Iberia. Sad part is, I now have only south into Africa to expand, so I will have to betray my good Moorish friends...

I'm still finding the diplomacy deep and engaging... The trick of course is that you have to approach it in an utterly cynical, machiavellian, manipulative fashion. Remember that your allies aren't friends, only people who've agreed not to attack you out of pure convenience, and you have to continue to make it clear to them that they would be better served keeping that alliance and pursuing other avenues of expansion ;)

In my current Russian campaign, I quickly snapped up all the rebel provinces that I could while sending my diplomat to ally with everyone as usual. I ended up with a Polish province being surrounded by my new rebel conquests, which I considered notably inconvenient, but I didn't want to go to war with them, so I used an agent rush to turn it rebel (10 spies, 4 assassins for sabotage, and enough priests to convert the province more or less entirely to Orthodox) and then conquered it.

Of course then I decided that I should really use my newly minted army of (By this point) fairly skilled agents to wreak more havoc... I carefully eliminated the Polish royal family, which resulted in a couple of assassins with more than 10 skill (I also used a couple of Princesses to "convert" two of his generals to my side ;) )

After destroying the Polish faction through espionage, I snapped up a couple of their provinces but left the rest to my Danish allies (And in fact helped them seize one province, earning their gratitude).

I also wanted one of Hungary's provinces (But just the one) and I noticed the Hungarians were acting a little belligerent towards one of my territories, so I moved a huge cav army out of the city and to what I gauged was just outside the visual range of the spy I knew he had in it, which prompted him to send in his army and lay siege.

Unbeknownst to the Hungarian King however, I gave Byzantium a rather sizable 10 turn tribute to sweeten our relations at the same time I was baiting my trap. So when the Hungarians laid siege to me at Kiev, breaking our alliance and effectively declaring war on me, Denmark (Who were still rather fond of me for my assistance in their campaign against the rebels formerly known as Poland) broke their alliance with Hungary, and Byzantium, whom I had managed to achieve "Perfect" relations with, did them one better and actually declared war on Hungary.

I laughed maniacally as the Hungarians fell into my trap, and descended on them with my 1500 man all cavalry army.

My 1500 men crushed his 1800 (But to be fair, my 1500 men were all Druzhina, Boyar Sons, and Kazakhs), and slew his best general (Who was also a family member). I quickly moved this army to lay siege to his castle (I can't remember the name of the province... it starts with the letters Iai I think).

Apparently my crushing defeat of his best general and full stack army spooked the hell out of the Hungarian King, and he sent me a diplomat with a fire under his feet. The diplomat begged for a ceasefire... I countered by offering the ceasefire in exchange for that one little province I wanted, which he immediately agreed to. I probably should have asked for more territory and given some to Byzantium, because my offer was still deemed "Very generous", but I got what I wanted out of it... And I'll keep pumping money into Byzantium so that they can crush Hungary.

I'm thinking that, unlike in the first MTW, I might actually be able to maintain an alliance with Byzantium long enough to achieve an allied Orthodox conquest of the world :D