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Any ideas for keeping Venice pacified? No matter what I do, it seems that they are programmed to want a war with me. I'm trying to stay at peace long enough to tech up to something beyond spear militia, but I can't get Venice to calm down.
Any tips would be great. I'd like to get a chance to actually use those great units I saw in the demo, rather than dreaming of them with my militia and merc armies.
Venice is very aggressive against the HRE, as they have little elsewhere to expand to. I would suggest rallying a large force at Innsbruck, and attacking Venice, it might take a few turns, but once its done Venice losses a large chunk of their income.
Venice appears to be hard-coded to hate the HRE. The first thing to try is to immediately send a diplomat to the Pope and make an alliance. Being allied with the Pope will help, and if they do attack then they'll be excommunicated more readily, making them targets for the Sicilians and the Milanese.
Try to get alliances with both of those, as well. With the Milanese and Sicilians on your side, or alternatively the Hungarians and/or the Byzantines, the Venetians will be less likely to focus entirely on you.
If the Venetians do get excommunicated, attack immediately and sack one of their major cities or castles. Make it as expensive as possible for them to rebuild and that will slow them down as well.
Getting a alliance with the pope might be hard, as the pope does not really like the HRE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aenlic
I started an HRE campaign today and I did indeed have an alliance with Milan, but they betrayed me after taking out France, the Sicilians also showed up taking that city next to Venice that I had, Venice besieged Vienna and Innsbruck as well as that city the Sicilians took. Now the Danes also came and wanted a few of my cities, including my capital in Frankfurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aenlic
But, while my counterattacks always take some time, I can defend most of my cities very well and I got teutonic knights in Frankfurt which really helped. The Italian militias can be overrun by most knights above feudal knights and if you're lucky by merchan cavalry militia. Having a general or two in endangered cities also helps. I tend to block the gate with spearmen and once the battle is fully engaged, charge my general in. He will then usually make them rout if they are not too many.
My counterattacks come along somewhat slowly, but I prefer to have some good defenses first before starting any counterattacks.
Concerning the cheap spearmen, I think the best one can hope for is a teutonic order building, alternatively try to get feudal knights, they can take on most of the italian militia.
The italian factions are not to be trusted, especially the Sicilians.
I think the best way to slow them down would be to have spies to the south near the paths to alps, and forts of the hills, keep a garrison in the forts to slow them down and give you some room to build up and attack venice, the only way to slow em down. :2cents:
i have not had Venice betray me in any of my HRE campaigns (i used HRE to learn instead of England) but Milan continues to attack me every 3rd turn with a full stack. I did kill two popes..but i am allied with Papal States, a vassal of Milan, Venice and Sicily...yet Milan continues to attack me, Sicily has a half stack next to Rome (i took) and are moving another half stack there....ally with pope isnt hard, talk to them, an offer of trade rights is 'Generous' (this is on VH) then Alliance is 'Generous' as well.
This might seem like strange advice but I would say get rid of Bologna when the game starts- just sell it to some other state. Because there are three factions jammed into the Italian peninsula it always becomes a war zone within about 15 turns of the game beginning, and you will be at its epicentre if you are in control of Bologna. On the other hand if you get rid of it the Italian factions will mostly be too busy fighting over it to attack you. If you don't get rid of it my advice is to find some way to wipe out the Italian factions early on since in the long run prolonged war in the Italian peninsula is a huge drain on resources, and there is no way to be in control of a city in the Italian peninsula and not be at war with an Italian faction (and in fact usually you will be at war with all three, at least on very hard). Do not just capture the city of Venice and expect that to resolve your problems- I did that and Venice continually sent large armies to recapture it and refused any ceasefire.
Milan is a hard faction to beat. Because of their small size they have huge armies that are not spread out. Wait until they spread into France and take around 2 provinces, then attack those 2 provinces while attacking Milan and Genoa. That way the city's will have to defend themselves, and will not be able to help the others. Although that strategy only works if you have fairly large armies in that area.Quote:
Originally Posted by pevergreen
If it comes to it, you can give Innsbruck and Bern to the Pope (after demolishing what you can). That will almost guarantee an alliance, make him much happier with you, probably enough to get a cardinal even, and make a very nice buffer between you and the bulk of Milan and Venice. That should allow you time to work on the Danish instead. Destroying the Danes will give you much more breathing room. Ally with the English if the French get annoying.
Creating buffer states by giving them to the Pope can be a very useful tactic. You can deal with the Pope later.
I actually figured out a solution to the problem myself.
If you turn Bologna into a castle, Venice doesn't attack you there. Bologna starts out with the building that lets you build sargeant spearmen, and is only a hop, skip, and a jump away from being a fortress.
Once you get a fortress in bologna, you can start producing armored sargeants, which level the playing field as far as spears go. Better yet, you get to produce dismounted feudal knights, which walk through Milan and Venice's italian spear militia. Not to mention, Bologna as a castle solves the loyalty problems bologna has, you aren't as likely to get attacked, and the high population growth means that you have a Citadel on mainland italy before sicily would. This means zweihanders, pavise crossbows, and gothic knights. Now if those units don't outclass anything those italian states have, then nothing will.
In my game so far, the presence of both bologna and Florence as castles (well bologna is a fortress, Florence a castle) means that Venice is a bit more than reluctant to make any expeditions to Vienna, which means that my super trading province is free from assault. You can also take some of those adopted generals from prince henry, pair them up with spair troops from frankfurt, and take them to Vienna early as well to deter attacks. Since Venice has let caution keep her out of war, she hasn't turned into the military industrial complex she usually is, so all is smooth sailing.
Take Hamburg early along with Prague, and leave everything else, and now you didn't expand too fast to open yourself up for attack. I'm currently raking in about four to five thousand florins a year, and I'm sieging antwerp (which should mean another thousand or so when I develop it).
Best of all, if Venice decides to get too big for their italian britches, I can march over with Armored sarge spearmen, feudal knights, and the dismounted version. Pavise crossbows are currently in development, and zweihanders shouldn't be too far away either.
Bottom line, success with HRE is determined by being able to get those big units and keep your head above water economically. I'm doing both, and I'm also on good terms with the Pope. When an attack does come from one of those jumpy italians, I'll be ready to march on the Kaiser's orders!
EDIT
P.S. This is all on Hard/Hard, so the AI isn't holding any real punches.
playing a VH/VH HRE game myself right now.
i think its a mistake to bother pursuing peace with venice. They control vital trade routes that you'll need to fuel your expansion. the longer you wait to obtain their territory, the worse your financial position will be later.
i took care of venice by going on the offensive as soon as possible. i ignored the rebels and just focused on venice and fortifying my cities and castles. It being so early in the game i had to field armies of militia, peasants, peasant archers and light cav... these units suck so mass numbers were necessary. choking off his trade was vital, so i blockaded and sieged as many of his territories as possible. i also sent a few money gifts to the pope to make sure venice got excommunicated.
if you do what i did, make sure you put as many archers and crossbowmen as you can in the balkan regions you take from venice, as Byzantium may well decide to attack you, and missile infantry is the best defense against them in my experience.
I tried to keep good terms with all four Italian factions (incl. the Papacy).
I managed to keep the Milanese and Sicilians for a while, and the Pope the whole game; my advice is keep them friends for as short a time as possible and try and go for a fast knock-out. Wipe out Milan, then clear Venice out (give away Ragusa if you are worried about "imperial overstretch" - to Sicily or the Pope perhaps to keep them happy?), then work on how to get rid of Sicily and the Papacy.
Idea: perhaps you can TRADE Rome for extensive lands elsewhere? If you don't have a need for some territories, perhaps you can get Rome without making the Papacy your foe - and gain yourself a friendly buffer state somewhere useful (like France, if you are going East?).
I abandoned my Italian provinces right from the off after my first abortive vh/vh HRE campaign in which the attacks from the Italians proved a real thorn in my side.
Anyway, as I said, I abandoned them (or it, can't remember how many you start with) at the same time as I struck immediately north for Hamburg. It's important you get this place as it keeps the Danes at bay for a while longer.
I then built forts with small stacks in all the mountain passes between Italy and Germany, and had Innsbruck as a real troops producing machine, and when Venice made their first attack it was along the pass that leads to Vienna. That move got them defeated in battle by myself and excommunicated, and the German frontier forts in the mountains turned into wonderful points for massing an invasion.
My army swept from the mountains and took Venice quickly, and since then Venice (who have spread eastwards) have not bothered me again. I assume they will at some point, but I suspect that they are no longer any real threat.
Remember, crossbowmen are your friends. A few volleys will absolutely rip through those Italian militia units. And indeed most other units you come across. Throw in a ballista or two to deal with generals and suchlike (if you can get them flanking, all the better). And then your general charging in from the flank whilst whatever infantry runs in to mob the front generally works.
In this game, ranged weapons are a must, and a flat trajectory works better than arced. So, bring more x-bows than anything else, and you'll be sorted. Either that, or a mahusive army of knights.
Doing this, on VH/VH, I was able to take the entire Italian peninsula with militia units - because I waited a bit, I had halberds when I finally took Rome and Palermo, but still. Taking on the superior Italian town and spear militia with the bog standard ones and winning every time was amusing.
You can be sure that any Italian faction will take a dive sooner or later.