Democracy: Democracy's Biggest Threat

This is a follow up to my thread about the attitudes of some blacks and hispanics in America. I was waiting to make a point, but alas, I waited to long and the thread was locked. :inquisitive:

Now, the point.

My place in society is extremely tenuous. Myself, and others who do not fit into certain cultural norms are able to lead fairly normal and decent lives soley for the fact that the Western World has embraced certain set of ideals known commonly as civil rights, civil liberties, ect. It is the idea held by moderates of both sides that "I may disagree with you and what you stand for, but it is your right to express yourself however you wish as long as it doesnt hurt others."

Unlike some, I do not take these rights for granted. The enlightened idea I described above is being threatened on both sides of the atlantic.

Europe is by far the largest dichotomy of ideals. In large part, the thousands of muslims that come into that continent every day do not share those same ideals at all.

In the United States as well - where there is already much more hostility towards tolerance than in Europe - the Mexican immigrants are far more close minded about many cultural issues than the average american. The black community in much of the nation is a theology unto itself, with representatives and cultural norms decided by those that control the faith.

In short, I am very worried that this world we have created - of tolerance, respect, and non-violent adjudication -could be voted out of existence.

I see no way to resolve this either, without going against the very ideals we stand for. We can only hope that those coming into our world from very different cultures gain an understanding and appreciation for our ideals.

Is anyone else concerned that those coming into the Western World do not have an appreciation of what it stands for?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prince of the Poodles

IIs anyone else concerned that those coming into the Western World do not have an appreciation of what it stands for?

---

I'm more concerned that you raise concerns about threats to your minority rights (which is a valid area of discussion) by stereotyping whole swathes of other minorities in a remarkably racist manner.

If it is not your intention to be racist, I suggest you rethink the presentation of your argument.

As far as I can see, there are elements within many religious movements that have an anti-gay agenda - both inside and from outside the countries of concern. Such an agenda is not a function of skin colour or immigration status, but religious conviction.

Racist? Can you give examples?

To ignore the cultural aspects of the immigrant populations is just stupid.

The muslim population coming into Europe is in general far more socially conservative than the majority of the European population. The same can be said about the Mexican and black populations in America. You can open any newspaper and find the same conclusions reached.

As I said, I cannot come up with anything that can be done, as it would go against the ideas of freedom and tolerance.

Please, this is racial stereotyping you are doing.

Black people opposed to gays ? There are lots of open gay black people out there, perhaps you fear that it is not accepted in hip hop culture, but even there there are exceptions. Kanye West for example is pretty vocal about gay rights (okay because his cousin is gay), hip hop is a youth culture, those are pretty much all intolerant to something. Besides, hip hop is at least as much the culture of suburban white kids than it is of black people...

Mexicans ? Because they tend to religious ? Newsflash, your entire country is full of religious people, of all races. You think the average Mexican is less tolerant than the average Southern Baptist ?

About the muslims in Europe: don't believe the Eurabia hype, most of them are pretty normal people who do hang on to their traditions. Yes, most aren't too accepting of homosexuality, but then I know certain areas where the indigenous people aren't too accepting either.

Really, your fears are ungrounded. Most of the time, religion and race don't matter much, it's where people live that tends to determine their social 'values'. City people tend to be more liberal then people living 'on the country'. This is true in the US (just look at the blue states) and in Europe. This was also true in ancient times (ancient Athens, medieval Venice, some muslim cities too, but I don't know enough about them).
This does only really work for relatively wealthy cities (although gay marriage is now allowed in Mexico City I believe, poorer cities seem to have the same effect but to a lesser extent).

So don't worry too much, and don't stereotype people according to race. Start spreading the wealth (ghetto's are bad, since they're essentially closed communities, they don't benefit much from city effects) and be tolerant.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Now this was my nice reply, if you make another racist thread, you'll probably get a less than nice reply from me.

This has nothing to do with racism, or at least not with the proper definition of the word.

"Racist", it seems, is commonly used as synonymous to "xenophobe".
By definition a "racist" believes that some people are inferior because of their ancestry. That's not the same as viewing (parts of) different cultures as inferior.
I'm not a racist, and I don't consider myself a xenophobe either. I do think however that certain cultures, or rather sub-cultures contain ideas or customs that I find disgusting and barbaric. And that includes certain sub-cultures of Dutch origin, I might add.
My view on immigrants in a nutshell: they should respect the law. No more and no less.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kralizec

This has nothing to do with racism, or at least not with the proper definition of the word.

---

I'm sorry, when talking about 'the blacks' and the treath they represent, you're being racist. Besides, almost all the arguments are based on sterotypical assumptions, and we've all seen posts by the little Prince before...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prince of the Poodles

Racist? Can you give me some examples?

---

Try this:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prince of the Poodles

This is a follow up to my thread about the attitudes of some blacks and hispanics in America.

Europe is by far the largest dichotomy of ideals. In large part, the thousands of muslims that come into that continent every day do not share those same ideals at all.

the Mexican immigrants are far more close minded about many cultural issues than the average american. The black community in much of the nation is a theology unto itself, with representatives and cultural norms decided by those that control the faith.

In short, I am very worried that this world we have created - of tolerance, respect, and non-violent adjudication -could be voted out of existence.

Is anyone else concerned that those coming into the Western World do not have an appreciation of what it stands for?

---

You characterise only blacks, hispanics and muslims as threats to "our world" and its concept of tolerance and civil rights. You present this as if there is no rainbow of opinion in these groups. You completely fail to mention that the biggest threat to gay rights comes from extremists on the religious right - many of whom come from black congregations, but many more are white. You characterise muslims as being wholly anti-gay as if there were not Christians, buddhists and many others that have doctrines against homosexuality. You fail to note that the incumbent politicians who enact or seek to curtail gay rights advances are largely white. I note that the Pope (perhaps the most damagingly influential speaker on homosexuality) is not mentioned by you - coincidence that he is white?

If you were arguing that the rise of dogmatic religious influence in politics is becoming a threat to civil rights, we would have a basis for discussion. You may even have a discussion point if you were to argue that immigrants with stricter religious cultures will influence the debate as they become more numerous as voters. But these voters could be Irish Catholics as Mexican ones - and indeed, we might argue that the current strength of religious influence in the US can be traced to the traditions of those and other European immigrants of previous centuries.

As it is, taken with your locked thread, you are displaying a substantial racist agenda which is distasteful.

Not necessarily.

If somebody says that blacks are dumber then whites, then that's obviously racist.
On the other hand some conservative Americans (including some on this board that I won't name) have made broad-sweeping comments on the black population of New Orleans after Katrina. For example that they were to lazy to work before the disaster, and are now to lazy to get their own life back together and rely solely on the government. While I think that these statements are grossly unfair, I don't think they're racist- they're aimed at the mentality of a certain sub-culture and don't attribute any inherent traits to them.

That said, I think that Prince was overgeneralizing in regards to black Americans.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kralizec

Not necessarily.

If somebody says that blacks are dumber then whites, then that's obviously racist.
On the other hand some conservative Americans (including some on this board that I won't name) have made broad-sweeping comments on the black population of New Orleans after Katrina. For example that they were to lazy to work before the disaster, and are now to lazy to get their own life back together and rely solely on the government. While I think that these statements are grossly unfair, I don't think they're racist- they're aimed at the mentality of a certain sub-culture and don't attribute any inherent traits to them.

That said, I think that Prince was overgeneralizing in regards to black Americans.

---

The way I remember it they were complaining about the people of New Orleans in general, not just the black people. There was some race related discussion but that had more to dow ith things the mayor had said than anything else.

Or did I miss something ?

I don't remember the discussion in detail, so...

But you get my point, right? People generalize all the time. If people make a general statement about a black sub-culture, they may intend this criticism as racially based, or more often, as culturally based. Somehow I don't buy that Prince meant to imply that black people carry some sort of homophobic gene.

I have not frequented many forums, but the few I have been on have not disallowed recognizing race and ethnicity.

So the general consensus on this board is that ethnic groups have no unique charactoristics?

How then, do you explain the huge differences in what is accepted under the law and in the social conciences of the Western World versus the Muslim World?

Quote:

---

Black people opposed to gays ? There are lots of open gay black people out there,

---

This just highlights how much you seem to not get what Im saying. There are openly gay people everywhere. Im speaking of voting blocks and charactoristics. I can pull up statistics that show group A votes is far more accepting of issue X than group B. Are such studies that involve ethnicities racist?

This isnt even about gay people. This is about women's rights, children's rights, censorship, and the fate of the liberties outlined in the constitution.

I am simply saying that many in the immigrant populations coming into both continents have shown they do not respect the ideals Western society upholds.

You should be very careful leveling such accusations against people. I would be worried about ANY color of people coming into our world that do not have an appreciation for what it stands for.

Most black people in America aren't immigrants, unless you want to consider all white Americans to be immigrants as well. And for that matter, most of their ancestors didn't come to America voluntarily...:oops:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prince of the Poodles

I am simply saying that many in the immigrant populations coming into both continents have shown they do not respect the ideals Western society upholds.

---

Good. Then why didn't you write that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prince of the Poodles

You should be very careful leveling such accusations against people. I would be worried about ANY color of people coming into our world that do not have an appreciation for what it stands for.

---

Good. Then why didn't you write that?

Quote:

---

Europe is by far the largest dichotomy of ideals. In large part, the thousands of muslims that come into that continent every day do not share those same ideals at all.

---

Yes, so we should kill them all Third-Reich style. :inquisitive:

So much racism, it's ridiculous. All the Muslim guys I've ever worked with spent their entire lives either drunk or hungover. Of course some people have different values, that's good. Without variation life would be dull. They're still just people.

There are a bunch of idiots in every community, and they're all just as dangerous. If anything the nice white, middle-class, quiet ones are more dangerous because they might actually get taken seriously. Plus there's dozens of times as many of them, so they might get together enough voting power to pull off something stupid.

We are all adults here. (Well im only 19) I didnt think it needed to be sanatized.

I dont understand why, because none of the peoples I mentioned were white, I am percieved as a racist.

I think - in general - a lot of eastern european peoples are far more socially conservative. They just dont seem to be migrating in great numbers.

I hope at least someone can see where I am coming from or there was really no point to this.

There are only so many people in the world that believe have freedom and liberty engrained in them from birth. There are already a great number of people in both Europe and the US that would not mind seeing a lot of civil liberties go by the wayside as long as it doesnt effect them. A huge influx of people who do not come from cultures that embrace liberty and are not being taught the values of a free and open society could tip the balance and seriously send us all back a few steps in history.

Quote:

---

Yes, so we should kill them all Third-Reich style.

---

How you could extrapolate that from what I have written is beyond me.

I cannot believe how I could come of as someone so completely different that what I am.

I give up... the point I was trying to make did not seem to make it to the keyboard. Take this thread as the crazy rantings of a nazi boy. :shame:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prince of the Poodles

To ignore the cultural aspects of the immigrant populations is just stupid.

The muslim population coming into Europe is in general far more socially conservative than the majority of the European population. The same can be said about the Mexican and black populations in America. You can open any newspaper and find the same conclusions reached.

As I said, I cannot come up with anything that can be done, as it would go against the ideas of freedom and tolerance.

---

A agree 100%, and I go even further, for a western democracy immigration can be a weapon of mass destruction. Democracy ends up being a snake that eats it's own tail.

While I understand your concern, I do not share ir. Im living in Europe in a very foriegner hostile country, and true we now see honour killings, mulims with scarfs around their heads and the occasional terror trial going on.

However, to state that thousands of muslims is coming in, with the purpose of ending western civilization is grossly overexaggerated and simply not true. Every time you find an example of integration gone wrong, you'll find a thousand examples of integration gone well. So what you mention might have some validity, however, only as the exception - not the norm.

How the situation is in the US with their minority communities I do not know and shall therefore not comment further than this: I will not believe that all of them can be grouped (like all blacks) and that said group as a whole acts violently towards US. Generalizations are good at somethings (getting your point across), however, it fails when you want a nuanced picture of the de facto world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prince of the Poodles

We are all adults here. (Well im only 19) I didnt think it needed to be sanatized.

I dont understand why, because none of the peoples I mentioned were white, I am percieved as a racist.

---

It's not sanitisation I was looking for, but accuracy. You appeared to be racist because you characterised the problem as being one pertaining to blacks, hispanics and muslims, whereas there are many white and other ethnic groups who are tending towards religious and social conservatism nowadays. Social conservatism is not just an immigrant issue either - most western democracies are seeing a trend towards more restriction of civil liberties.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prince of the Poodles

I think - in general - a lot of eastern european peoples are far more socially conservative. They just dont seem to be migrating in great numbers.

---

They are immigrating across Europe in substantial numbers. Whilst it is true that some countries of Eastern Europe have a more socially conservative tradition, many of the young people who are coming to "liberal" western Europe are trying to escape the confines of their old order. So the immigrants are often full of newer, better and more radical ideas.

In the UK, for example, it could be argued convincingly that it is less new immigrants than established muslim and christian groups that find themselves challenged with fundmentalist thought. Its a lot easier for some pampered citizen drawing welfare to moan about the decadent West than someone who has just escaped the cruelty and poverty of the "religiously pure" home country. I used to work with refugee and immigrant groups and most new people were seeking to establish themselves quietly in a new life, rather than politically influence the mores of the new country.

That is not to deny however, that the signal failure of European governments (and from what I have read, the US government) to grasp the nettle of immigration and integration has not produced an alienation conducive to fundmentalist thought. You are right, in my opinion, to be concerned about the erosion of women's and homosexual rights (and indeed wider human rights) because of faint-hearted concerns about offending "traditions". But these traditions can be both long-standing European christian ones, as well as muslim sensibilities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prince of the Poodles

There are already a great number of people in both Europe and the US that would not mind seeing a lot of civil liberties go by the wayside as long as it doesnt effect them.

---

Therein lies the true kernel of the argument. We don't need immigrants to lose our civil liberties, we are chucking them in the trash can just fine all by ourselves.

As for being voted out of existance, who are they going to vote for that opposes all civil liberties?

Just an example from the dutch elections, there had been some trouble within some party's, the Turkish politicians didn't reject the Turkish view on the armenia-issue (beats me why they should have an opinion on that but hey), and they got kicked from the list, turkish voter boycotted these party's. In Turkey these politicians are now all honor-politicians because of that. Another party had a turkish politicians who didn't want to comment on anything, et voila, the Turkish voters got a mail from Ankara (government denies), who told them to vote on her and that party. That is direct interference of dutch elections, and it suggests that Turkey sees turkish immigrants as agents.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prince of the Poodles

How you could extrapolate that from what I have written is beyond me.

I cannot believe how I could come of as someone so completely different that what I am.

I give up... the point I was trying to make did not seem to make it to the keyboard. Take this thread as the crazy rantings of a nazi boy. :shame:

---

Don't worry, I'm exaggerating.

But it all starts this way. It's all the fault of xxx, they are reponsible for all of our ills.

We should all speak Lojban or something so we don't get confused by English.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prince of the Poodles

How you could extrapolate that from what I have written is beyond me.

I cannot believe how I could come of as someone so completely different that what I am.

I give up... the point I was trying to make did not seem to make it to the keyboard. Take this thread as the crazy rantings of a nazi boy. :shame:

---

Welcome to the internet, it's a minefield :laugh4:

When making an argument you have to be as precise as possible, and try to cover as many possible angles. For instance your original point about Mexican/Black culture fell apart in a couple of places:

-it seemed to be about religion and morals, yet referred to ethnicity
-it didn't mention the conservative forces in white America, which are by far the most powerful, making it racially biased (BTW aren't Mexicans catholic and thus their morality determined by the PanzerPope ?)
-you provided no concrete cases or evidence to support your position
-you tried to use Europe as an example, but being European myself, your ideas of Eurabia don't match with my experience living here (yeah, Fragony to see it more your way I guess)

Really, your thread might have been good intentioned (well, not racist anyway) but it was then just worded badly. This is an internet discussion forum, people will attack each and every hole in your reasoning just for the hell of it.
You're relatively new of course, which probably makes it harder for you, we know most posters here (well, the way they tend to think anyway) so we can better interpret their posts.

I hope I don't come off too preachy here, but you really seem to have missed the ball on this one...

What a frustrating thread.

Poodles – I think you have conveyed your message clear enough without seeming racist (a bit of stereotyping and generalizing thou). Additionally your responses to being misunderstood have been done with… restraint, nice job.

I think some people should address the topic and not the sentence structure and commonly accepted words like Black, Muslim and Hispanic, words that the census, nielsen ratings, Wal*Mart, insurance companies, politicians and everyone else use as common descriptors of people that think, act and buy a certain way. This is the internet, a place for ideas and discussions to flow, not a technical journal or legal document.

It appears that Poodles is concerned that civil liberties may be threatened by an influx of immigrants and a changing subculture that is not “white”. A completely valid topic and I think that civil liberties and the entire culture will be affected, but probably not threatened. Properly regulating immigration and encouraging integration with laws backed with good will should go a long way to curb a drastic culture change but I think the first step is for the government (and the people) to accept that there is a potential threat that needs to be addressed before it becomes a genuine threat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BDC

Don't worry, I'm exaggerating.

But it all starts this way. It's all the fault of xxx, they are reponsible for all of our ills.

We should all speak Lojban or something so we don't get confused by English.

---

Social studies in the UK found that the Muslim youths who were causing trouble were mainly after a way of integrating their previous generation's identity with the one they were born into. Unfortunately the conservative leaders who could have helped them with this transition only spoke Urdu, and the only people who claimed a knowledge of their culture and spoke English were the radicals. So now we are training a generation of English-speaking Muslim clerics, scholars and historians, so we can integrate their culture into our own (as we British have always done). Things should ease off in a few more years, and we should see definite results in 10-20 years time.

Muslims aren't that much different from any other ethnic group who have had difficulty integrating. We had a Black problem 20-something years ago, and it was identified, measures taken, and the problem solved within 20 years. As was the case with every other culture that we integrated, nowadays it can be hard to tell whether modern pop culture was derived from European or Afro-Caribbean roots, or what portion of which had the greater influence. We've had the integration problem before and we solved it, and I have every confidence we will do so again to our greater gain.

You fear that democracy will destroy itself? In many ways that is a possibility, but not one which will come about through immigration. Apathy kills democracy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Social studies in the UK found that the Muslim youths who were causing trouble were mainly after a way of integrating their previous generation's identity with the one they were born into.

---

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Now I am not totally disregarding this, but do you actually consider what these uhm, troubled youths say to be entiribly reliable? Of course they say that, they know multicultists will back them up. A wise man called Doc_Bean once told me that I shouldn't blame the mulsims for our idiots, I guess that's where you come in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Now I am not totally disregarding this, but do you actually consider what these uhm, troubled youths say to be entiribly reliable? Of course they say that, they know multicultists will back them up. A wise man called Doc_Bean once told me that I shouldn't blame the mulsims for our idiots, I guess that's where you come in.

---

Except that, AFAIK, it wasn't these troubled youths who gave them this explanation. They started by looking at why they were listening to these radical preachers, and they found that these radicals were the only clerics who preached in English (the only language 2nd generation Muslims spoke), all the conservative clerics who advocated moderation spoke Urdu or Arabic.

I suppose if one's disposition is to hate all foreigners, it is easy to blame them for everything and say they can't ever change for the better. I live in London, where there were fearful problems with blacks, with parts of Brixton considered too dangerous for police patrols. A decade on, the problem was considered so passe as to merit a Tory campaign joke (what does the Conservative party do with a boy from Brixton? - it made him Prime Minister), and my own occasional trips there have shown me a community completely at ease with itself and its neighbours. I'm a fan of multiculturalism because I've seen it work, even where many people had given up on it.

I don't hate foreigners, I just don't understand why they insist on being here, it isn't like they are very good guests after all. Now I know this is a subject one, but yes I have black friends. Not much though.

You say these youth weren't the ones to give the explanations, that I believe, they probably gave it to another organisation, one of the I don't know how many that feed on the problems of a multicultural society. Anyway, sounds like a bad report to me if they didn't even speak to them. All about the money $$$, and out of all criminal organisations the multiculture-maffia is by far the most cynical. And profitable, but those two go hand in hand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prince of the Poodles

Is anyone else concerned that those coming into the Western World do not have an appreciation of what it stands for?

---

Not really. What you're saying could only be possible if the people actually had some right to change the principles of a country through democratic process. As it is now the people barely have an influence, even less if we talk about minorities. Power is exercised by a reduced group of people, so I think your fear is unfounded.

However I do agree with you in the vision of Mexicans. I'm a latin american and I can confirm (though I'm in one of the most european countries) that what you're saying is truth. Latin americans tend to be less aware of their rights and what they imply, let alone the defense of those rights. The great mass of the argentinian population, for example, doesn't know a single article of their Constitution. The average latin american thinks he knows what his rights are, but he's mistaken. This sometimes leads to bigotry. I cannot talk about the blacks or muslims however. All this characteristics are bad for a democracy, but not bad in themselves. Also Prince people can be educated...