Palestinian in-fighting murders three children

I am a long-term supporter of the creation of a Palestinian state, but they are going to need to grow up a very great deal before they prove themselves worthy of such.

This incident cannot be explained away by referring to the brutalisation of an occupied people. This one is entirely of their own making, and reflects a callous barbarism that is only too evident in the Middle East.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Three children shot dead in Gaza

Gunmen in Gaza City have shot dead the three sons of an intelligence chief linked to the Palestinian party Fatah.

One adult was also killed in the attack which took place in a street crowded with children on their way to school.

The boys' father was named as Baha Balousheh, who led a crackdown on the now-ruling Hamas movement 10 years ago.

The BBC's Alan Johnston in Gaza says the motive is unclear but Mr Balousheh's position means he would have made many enemies.

Tensions between Fatah and the Hamas government have frequently led to gun battles in the streets of Gaza that have killed dozens of people.

The attack came a day after gunmen shot at Interior Minister Saeed Seyam's convoy in Gaza. Mr Seyam, who is a senior Hamas leader, was unharmed in that incident.

The attack happened as children were arriving at nine schools which line Palestine Street in Gaza City's central Rimal district.

The gunmen fired more than 70 bullets at the vehicle in which Mr Balousheh's children, aged between six and 10, were travelling. At least two other children were hurt.

Inside the white vehicle with its blacked out passenger windows, the seats and a school bag were covered in blood.

There were scenes of pandemonium as hundreds of children and parents ran for cover from the gunfire.

Fatah supporters gathered in the streets vowing revenge for the attack.

Fadwa Nabulsi, a 12-year-old interviewed by the Associated Press, said she was outside a school with her nine-year-old brother, Wael, when the shooting started.

"We saw fire coming from one car. We started screaming and children started running.

"I was crying, and I lost Wael for about half an hour. Then I found him hiding in a falafel shop. I'm trying to find my father to take us back home," she said.

Palestinian police in the area have been trying to help children locate their parents and Gaza City's Shifa hospital has been flooded with inquiries from concerned families.

Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum condemned Monday's attack as an "awful, ugly crime against innocent children".

He blamed elements who wanted to undermine Palestinian interests by creating chaos and confusion.

Hamas won a landslide victory in elections in January but its funding has been choked off by Western donors because it refuses to renounce violence and recognise Israel.

Fatah leader and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has been considering a request by his allies to hold early elections to resolve an impasse in efforts to form a unity government.

Hamas denounced the proposal to hold another election as a "coup against democracy".

For pity's sake, stop it. :shame:

We will see more of this once they get a state, and this is why I fully support it's founding. One less stick to hit us.

Sad, yeah.

Common middle eastern behavior?

Sometimes I get the feeling that they just can't help it, that the need to kill is too strong.

Of course I would never think that out loud.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Of course I would never think that out loud.

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I'm so glad. :rolleyes:

I would suggest it may have rather more to do with the political structures prevalent in that part of the world, which were largely imposed upon them and then made worse by superpower influences.

Much of the rest of the world that has been subject to imperialism and then superpower realpolitik has suffered/is suffering in the same way.

This does not excuse the responsibility borne by the factions who do this, but it is not inherent, nor exclusive to, the Middle East.

They sure know how to play them then, must be pressing the right buttons.

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

I would suggest it may have rather more to do with the political structures prevalent in that part of the world, which were largely imposed upon them and then made worse by superpower influences.

Much of the rest of the world that has been subject to imperialism and then superpower realpolitik has suffered/is suffering in the same way.

This does not excuse the responsibility borne by the factions who do this, but it is not inherent, nor exclusive to, the Middle East.

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Nor exclusive to this moment in history. In fact, looked at across a broader swath, you could make a good argument that such conflict/violence is the human norm. Far more places have been "governed" by tribalism/warlordism for far longer than any other style of government -- enough for me to suspect it is the human norm and that Western Democracy is the abberation.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Nor exclusive to this moment in history. In fact, looked at across a broader swath, you could make a good argument that such conflict/violence is the human norm. Far more places have been "governed" by tribalism/warlordism for far longer than any other style of government -- enough for me to suspect it is the human norm and that Western Democracy is the abberation.

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You're right of course, but I would argue with your conclusion. I don't see it as an abberation, but as progression along a path.

The natural state of mankind is actually peace, because not only is that what most people wish for most of the time, but it is the only state that allows progress beyond those animal instincts. So the development of peaceful ways to resolve conflicts is a major step forward.

We are in the era where violence still has its attractions to some, but we have real working models to show what we can achieve through peace. It is imperative we strengthen and support those models in the face of violent provocation, or we will slip back.

As for those still caught in the web of violence, I am of the opinion that they need to be left alone (absolutely alone, no tinkering) to find their own way to peace. That may require many casualties and of a scale that convinces people that they must seek another way.

Eventually, every man tires of war. Just look at the bloodbaths we inflicted on ourselves in Europe to finally get the clue. The Middle East is a rose-scented garden of tranquillity compared to what we educated ourselves with.

This is a perfect example of why I think we should redistribute our wealth to them and all others like them…NOT!

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The gunmen fired more than 70 bullets at the vehicle in which Mr Balousheh's children, aged between six and 10, were travelling.

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I heard it on the radio this afternoon.

Almost made me cry.

:shame:

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

As for those still caught in the web of violence, I am of the opinion that they need to be left alone (absolutely alone, no tinkering) to find their own way to peace. That may require many casualties and of a scale that convinces people that they must seek another way.

Eventually, every man tires of war. Just look at the bloodbaths we inflicted on ourselves in Europe to finally get the clue. The Middle East is a rose-scented garden of tranquillity compared to what we educated ourselves with.

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That's what I've been advocating. Just cut off the middle east from Europe and let them kill each other as much as they want, it's nothing to do with us. There's nothing there that interests us, and all sides have repeatedly told us it's none of our business. Let Palestine, Israel, Syria, whoever else thinks the EU is a busybody do without dilpomatic and economic links with the EU. And when it's hurt them enough, let them come back when they're ready to listen. The EU has miniscule political and military influence in the region, but massive economic muscle. Why don't we use it?

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

You're right of course, but I would argue with your conclusion. I don't see it as an abberation, but as progression along a path.

The natural state of mankind is actually peace, because not only is that what most people wish for most of the time, but it is the only state that allows progress beyond those animal instincts. So the development of peaceful ways to resolve conflicts is a major step forward.

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I do not believe that mankind's natural state is that of peace, though I adamantly agree that peaceful conflict resolution represents progress. I actually suspect that Hobbes had a good deal more truth behind his perspective than is currently "fashionable" in academic circles. I believe, for example, that children are a hint closer to the "state of nature" than adults -- and just look at how wonderfully they treat one another absent some external authority....

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

As for those still caught in the web of violence, I am of the opinion that they need to be left alone (absolutely alone, no tinkering) to find their own way to peace. That may require many casualties and of a scale that convinces people that they must seek another way.

Eventually, every man tires of war. Just look at the bloodbaths we inflicted on ourselves in Europe to finally get the clue. The Middle East is a rose-scented garden of tranquillity compared to what we educated ourselves with.

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It could be true that violence will pale :inquisitive: -- I pray so :yes: -- and that this form of quarantine may be the best choice in the long run. It would require considerable resources to implement, however, for while there are fewer in the West who seek conflict there are more than enough willing to profit from it.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

That's what I've been advocating. Just cut off the middle east from Europe and let them kill each other as much as they want, it's nothing to do with us. There's nothing there that interests us, and all sides have repeatedly told us it's none of our business. Let Palestine, Israel, Syria, whoever else thinks the EU is a busybody do without dilpomatic and economic links with the EU. And when it's hurt them enough, let them come back when they're ready to listen. The EU has miniscule political and military influence in the region, but massive economic muscle. Why don't we use it?

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That happens to involve the killing of thousands - maybe millions of completely innocent peaople, how many inncoent children would you want to die before we let them back in?!

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Originally Posted by Scurvy

That happens to involve the killing of thousands - maybe millions of completely innocent peaople, how many inncoent children would you want to die before we let them back in?!

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When they ask for our help and are willing to listen to and follow our terms. Other countries don't have any Godgiven right to expect our help, especially if they repeatedly tell us it is unwelcome and abuse us when we offer it. Let them stew for as long as they feel independent, and only restore relations when they recognise we were right.

According to Al-Jazeera, it's Israel's fault.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Who is responsible for the situation?

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the most important reasons why these crises and problems continue to simmer. The day when Israel was founded created the basis for our problems. The West should finally come to understand this. Everything would be much calmer if the Palestinians were given their rights.

Do you mean to say that if Israel did not exist, there would suddenly be democracy in Egypt, that the schools in Morocco would be better, that the public clinics in Jordan would function better?

I think so.

Can you please explain to me what the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has to do with these problems?

The Palestinian cause is central for Arab thinking.

In the end, is it a matter of feelings of self-esteem?

Exactly. It’s because we always lose to Israel. It gnaws at the people in the Middle East that such a small country as Israel, with only about 7 million inhabitants, can defeat the Arab nation with its 350 million. That hurts our collective ego. The Palestinian problem is in the genes of every Arab. The West’s problem is that it does not understand this.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

When they ask for our help and are willing to listen to and follow our terms. Other countries don't have any Godgiven right to expect our help, especially if they repeatedly tell us it is unwelcome and abuse us when we offer it. Let them stew for as long as they feel independent, and only restore relations when they recognise we were right.

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The people want the help, they need it. The governments don't. If you leave them it will just get worse, violence = more violence and so on, its the innocent people that suffer, not those who make us unwelcome, by leaving we admit defeat to terrorists etc.

+ on the Israel thing, ( and of course the palestinians think its israels fault, and presumably israel think its palestines and syrias fault, and syria thinks its israel and the us etc etc.) if we were to leave israel wouldnt last very long, surrounded and without any help... more loss of life :shame:

:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Scurvy

The people want the help, they need it. The governments don't. If you leave them it will just get worse, violence = more violence and so on, its the innocent people that suffer, not those who make us unwelcome, by leaving we admit defeat to terrorists etc.

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Nor would Pan-man deny this basic point. The crux of his argument runs like this:

By assisting in any way, nations external to the conflict minimize the impact of conflict on the participants, attempt to stop conflict when it happens and impede the violence when and where they can -- and by so doing prevent the participants in that conflict from finally bleeding each other white long enough to truly realize that there has to be a better way. By limiting the conflict in the short term, we aid in its long-term continuation.

This is a draconian measure -- but it makes sense on one brutal level. Only when the terrorist is absolutely convinced that no "dint of effort" will actually drive all the Israelis into the sea we she/he cease. Since a majority of Israelis are already convinced that they cannot eradicate Islam, they're probably a short step or two further down this road of realization than are the Palestinians and their supporters. Europe largely abjured war as a means of conflict resolution following the conclusion of WW2. Care to count the cost of that realization?

Not sure it'd work, and I'm certain that lots would die -- but it isn't as though anything else that has been tried since 1946 has done any better.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

According to Al-Jazeera, it's Israel's fault.

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And according to Fox News and The Jerusalem Post, it's the Palestinans' fault. :shrug: What else is new...?

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Nor would Pan-man deny this basic point. The crux of his argument runs like this:

By assisting in any way, nations external to the conflict minimize the impact of conflict on the participants, attempt to stop conflict when it happens and impede the violence when and where they can -- and by so doing prevent the participants in that conflict from finally bleeding each other white long enough to truly realize that there has to be a better way. By limiting the conflict in the short term, we aid in its long-term continuation.

This is a draconian measure -- but it makes sense on one brutal level. Only when the terrorist is absolutely convinced that no "dint of effort" will actually drive all the Israelis into the sea we she/he cease. Since a majority of Israelis are already convinced that they cannot eradicate Islam, they're probably a short step or two further down this road of realization than are the Palestinians and their supporters. Europe largely abjured war as a means of conflict resolution following the conclusion of WW2. Care to count the cost of that realization?

Not sure it'd work, and I'm certain that lots would die -- but it isn't as though anything else that has been tried since 1946 has done any better.

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Okay, thanks for explanation (although words like crux, draconian and abjured rather test my vocabulary :beam: ) I still don't think so many deaths would be justified.... :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

According to Al-Jazeera, it's Israel's fault.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Who is responsible for the situation?

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the most important reasons why these crises and problems continue to simmer. The day when Israel was founded created the basis for our problems. The West should finally come to understand this. Everything would be much calmer if the Palestinians were given their rights.

Do you mean to say that if Israel did not exist, there would suddenly be democracy in Egypt, that the schools in Morocco would be better, that the public clinics in Jordan would function better?

I think so.

Can you please explain to me what the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has to do with these problems?

The Palestinian cause is central for Arab thinking.

In the end, is it a matter of feelings of self-esteem?

Exactly. It’s because we always lose to Israel. It gnaws at the people in the Middle East that such a small country as Israel, with only about 7 million inhabitants, can defeat the Arab nation with its 350 million. That hurts our collective ego. The Palestinian problem is in the genes of every Arab. The West’s problem is that it does not understand this.

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This is a very telling article/interview.

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Originally Posted by yesdachi

This is a very telling article/interview.

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Its a really interesting article, although the quote is very misleading... the guy they are interviewing comes over as very considered, - i dont see why its telling though - he explains it all quite nicely (its not really a surprise that he thinks its israels fault, just as israelis would probably claim its palestines fault.) :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by yesdachi

This is a very telling article/interview.

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Evidently there's an editor at Fox news and one at The Jerusalem Post that hold the opposite view. :yes:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Europe largely abjured war as a means of conflict resolution following the conclusion of WW2. Care to count the cost of that realization?

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Actually the lack of warfare was a sword of damocles hovering above their heads in the form of nuclear war. European powers were quite happy to use warfare and terrorism against anyone who didn't have nuclear weapons. A quick review of what happened after 1946 and Europe's colonialism in South East Asia, state-sponsored terrorist attacks as well as other dubious actions around the world and you can see that the only reason for lack of warfare in Europe was not some sort of raising of culture and learning not to fight but just fear of being made into radioactive sludge.

In short your own answer was correct IMDHO:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

I believe, for example, that children are a hint closer to the "state of nature" than adults -- and just look at how wonderfully they treat one another absent some external authority....

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Without the threat of nuclear war provided by external authority, Europeans would be going to war against each other.

you beat me to it Banquo

It's not Israel's fault. This is why they can't get their own state. they to dang stupid to realize that, killing each other and bombaring Israel wth missles won't help them..

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Originally Posted by Scurvy

Its a really interesting article, although the quote is very misleading... the guy they are interviewing comes over as very considered, - i dont see why its telling though - he explains it all quite nicely (its not really a surprise that he thinks its israels fault, just as israelis would probably claim its palestines fault.) :2thumbsup:

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What I find telling is that it gives us a look at the opinion of a very influential leader in the Arab world. His words echo the Arab world (or the Arab world echoes his). I don’t think people understand just how much differently westerners think compared to (I’ll stereotype) them and this article allows us to view this Arab way of thinking. His interpretation of events and how he rationalizes them is IMO, telling (In an open your eyes before you are headless sort of way).

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Originally Posted by Scurvy

The people want the help, they need it. The governments don't. If you leave them it will just get worse, violence = more violence and so on, its the innocent people that suffer, not those who make us unwelcome, by leaving we admit defeat to terrorists etc.

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But we're not doing any good by being there. We pay the money, but we don't get the goods. Whether this is because of the government or the people doesn't make much difference.

Also, by leaving we're not admitting defeat to terrorists, by leaving we are saying we are sick of the whole mess and don't care enough to want to stay. We did the right in thing in 1948 when we left. Why are we trying to get involved again?

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+ on the Israel thing, ( and of course the palestinians think its israels fault, and presumably israel think its palestines and syrias fault, and syria thinks its israel and the us etc etc.) if we were to leave israel wouldnt last very long, surrounded and without any help... more loss of life :shame:

:2thumbsup:

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Israel is militarily more powerful than all the Arab countries combined if they wish to fight on Israeli soil. Palestine and the other Arab countries don't have the capability to drive the Israelis into the sea - only Israel has the capability to expand and create a Greater Israel.

I don't care enough to deny the Israelis this chance at further conquest, and I don't care enough to deny the Palestinians their chance to bleed the Israelis. However, whatever they do, they'll find that being denied economic access to the EU is going to hurt. A lot. No amount of subsidies from the US or Muslim countries is going to make up for it. Perhaps then they'll start listening to our advice to stop fighting.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

According to Al-Jazeera, it's Israel's fault.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Who is responsible for the situation?

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the most important reasons why these crises and problems continue to simmer. The day when Israel was founded created the basis for our problems. The West should finally come to understand this. Everything would be much calmer if the Palestinians were given their rights.

Do you mean to say that if Israel did not exist, there would suddenly be democracy in Egypt, that the schools in Morocco would be better, that the public clinics in Jordan would function better?

I think so.

Can you please explain to me what the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has to do with these problems?

The Palestinian cause is central for Arab thinking.

In the end, is it a matter of feelings of self-esteem?

Exactly. It’s because we always lose to Israel. It gnaws at the people in the Middle East that such a small country as Israel, with only about 7 million inhabitants, can defeat the Arab nation with its 350 million. That hurts our collective ego. The Palestinian problem is in the genes of every Arab. The West’s problem is that it does not understand this.

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So let me get this. The arabs are mad because their ego is hurt. Thats just sad, if they want to do something about it then they should build up their military power and learn to fight in a coherent force to eject the Isrealis.

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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

And according to Fox News and The Jerusalem Post, it's the Palestinans' fault. :shrug: What else is new...?

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Umm, it is? Or are you talking about the whole situation and not this specific incident?

The latter of course. I didn't feel the need to explicitly state it.

Another org thread where the brain cells are barely engaged and the ill-thought out cliches roll in like self-satisfied sea mist.

The gunning down of kids in a car is a brutal crime. It is a brutal crime whose cause we have yet to work out. Is it a political revenge killing, a botched assasination, a contract killing, a Mossad job, etc. We don't really know. We can make guesses.

None of these possibilities are exclusively Middle Eastern. In fact they are prevalent in the Great Satan itelf often enough. Don't you have frequent shootings and killings? Political assasinations are pretty common over the last 40 years too. Didn't you lot kill a president, his brother, and two prominent civil rights protestors?

Now as for these poor child-like apes being incapable of rational behaviour - I would remind you of the death toll in Iraq of children killed by US bombs and bullets. Not to mention the prevalance of torture, rape and murder of civillians by US soldiers there.