%$^&* Damage >:(

I just got M2TW Saturday. It took me hours to clear the hard drive space for it and get it installed. I stayed up all night playing it and only stopped now at 2:49 PM!
I am most seriously displeased! It seems that all the ground CA made with RTW, it lost with M2TW!
AI stinks (dumb as heck). Missile damage stinks (under-rated). Cavalry stinks (un balanced). Gunpowder units stink (all around poor). Unit selection stinks (limited). Aztec unit damage stinks (over-rated). Agents stupid as heck. etc, etc, etc!
This game was a serious let down for me. Am I the only one who was dissappointed with it? And it stinks too, because I was looking forward to this more than any other game CA ever released!
Please tell me someone made a good mod for this!

Hah hah! Well, you ain't the only one :P


Just check out those mods on this board, or check out Total War Center. There's some good stuff laying around.

I felt the same way because it was too dummed down, but luckily the game is highly moddable, even more so than the previous games. I stopped playing after less than a week and waited for the patch. Now I'm having fun again and can see this game having just as much longevity as the previous titles.

I'm currently having a blast playing now using the Darth mod with my own changes to increase battle lengths and reduce kill rates, amongst other things.

As with RTW, forget the vanilla game, you have to mod it to get the most out of it.

While I agree with what you're saying, there are several other threads out there that are essentially the same as this one. Maybe you should've posted in one of those rather than open an entirely new thread.

But yea, I only played the vanilla game for about three nights until I was annoyed by it and started modding things. As stated, mods are where the true beauty of this game will lie.

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Originally Posted by Vuk

I just got M2TW Saturday. It took me hours to clear the hard drive space for it and get it installed. I stayed up all night playing it and only stopped now at 2:49 PM!
I am most seriously displeased! It seems that all the ground CA made with RTW, it lost with M2TW!
AI stinks (dumb as heck). Missile damage stinks (under-rated). Cavalry stinks (un balanced). Gunpowder units stink (all around poor). Unit selection stinks (limited). Aztec unit damage stinks (over-rated). Agents stupid as heck. etc, etc, etc!
This game was a serious let down for me. Am I the only one who was dissappointed with it? And it stinks too, because I was looking forward to this more than any other game CA ever released!
Please tell me someone made a good mod for this!

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I felt the same way. Thank the GODS for mods.

I enjoy MTW2. It could be better so I'm kinda waiting for the next patch. Playing other games for the moment. It's a lot better than RTW, though. RTW was bad.

Well, a lot of this is just a matter of taste. Missiles too powerful, cavalry unbalanced etc. Who's to say? I think, Vuk, you started a poll in the Colosseum predicated on the idea that missiles and cavalry were too weak in RTW. That was a surprising point of view to me, to put it mildly. I'm not sure there is much point debating those kind of judgment calls here. We've had quite a few threads on such matters and unless people are bringing either historical evidence or in game testing to shed new light on it, I think is an apples vs pears kind of issue.

From what I've heard of the Aztecs, they do sound pumped up, presumably to provide an endgame challenge. People may or may not like it - again, I am not sure it's worth getting riled about (sounds like a history vs gameplay trade-off to me).

On the AI, I am definitely finding the strategic AI much better than RTWs. It's quite canny at times, now - doubling up, feinting, circumventing stronger opposition etc. The diplomatic AI (when to wage war and when to make peace) is less impressive, I admit but not noticeably different from RTW.

On the tactical AI, I don't think I've played enough post patch to comment. But I know my casualty rates are far higher than in RTW - much more like the old attrition from STW and MTW - and I suspect better tactical AI is one factor in this. I've just been doing some mini-custom battles in RTW vs the AI for a PBM campaign and I can say that the tactical AI in that game is pretty woeful at times, in ways that are often masked in larger campaign battles. For example, it will let its heavy cavalry stand by idly to get charged and run down by your heavy cavalry (this is in RTR PE, by the way, where the charge is everything - as in M2TW). It would be interesting to do parallel exercises with M2TW.

One observation from a moderator's point of view - members should be careful in these kind of threads to avoid "CA bashing". ie please criticise constructively and don't use insulting language. Read the forum rules sticky if you are unsure why.

If your going to bash it; include what you think would be better and more fun, so modders can build upon that and produce a even better game.

Possible partial explanation for increased kill rates:

Average attack for heavy cavalry in RTW was 7. In M2TW it's 11. Hoplites average 7 attack, but good pikemen in M2TW average 11. Swordsmen are 9-11 in RTW, 13 or more in M2TW.

Total defense for super-heavy cavalry in RTW was 33 (katanks), in M2TW it's 16 (lancers). Total defense for Roman legionary was 22, total defense for Hoplite was 27, in M2TW foot knights average 18-19, and only if they carry shields.

Charge mechanics in M2TW cause increased damage to the charging unit. You can lose half a unit of knights executing a *successful* formed charge.

You could have an entire army rout in RTW before contact (this is actually historical, go read Alexander the Great's campaigns), in M2TW at least some units will stand and inflict damage.

I don't mind though. The kill rates are not "historical" in that sense, but it makes for more intense gameplay. And it causes you to have to rebuild your army after every battle instead of conquering the entire world with the same stack.

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Originally Posted by econ21

(sounds like a history vs gameplay trade-off to me).

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The increase in hiting power is more of an attempt at making it historicaly accurate but within the bounds of the game. The aztec army numbered into the hundreds of thousands, their major advantage. M2TW simply can't show those numbers, so they bumped their stats to make it at least somewhat realistic. It was only through their incredible arrogance that Cortez managed to conquer them.

There are quite alot of differences in M2TW. IMO it's a far more improved game.

As for the historical accuracy - nothing a good mod wont fix.

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Originally Posted by andrewt

I enjoy MTW2. It could be better so I'm kinda waiting for the next patch. Playing other games for the moment. It's a lot better than RTW, though. RTW was bad.

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This is exactly how I'm handling the situation, though I have spent some time delving into the unpacked files to see how things work... IMHO, they should have released the unpacker with the original release so that more serious gamers could look into them. Besides, giving modders a big hand, just studying some of the files has given me a much greater appreciation of what CA is trying to do.

Hey Vuk
I'm assuming that you won the campaign in 30 turns on vh/vh then?

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Originally Posted by Vuk

AI stinks (dumb as heck). Missile damage stinks (under-rated). Cavalry stinks (un balanced). Gunpowder units stink (all around poor). Unit selection stinks (limited). Aztec unit damage stinks (over-rated). Agents stupid as heck. etc, etc, etc!
This game was a serious let down for me. Am I the only one who was dissappointed with it? And it stinks too, because I was looking forward to this more than any other game CA ever released!
Please tell me someone made a good mod for this!

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I love it when whiners complain that the cavalry is overpowered despite the fact that historically they were overpowered too.

That's like complaining that tanks are overpowered against foot soldiers.

It's not that bad... come on. Yeah, there are a lot of things that I think could and should be better, but I figure, in a few months or so there will be some freaking sweet mods and then I can start checking them out. Vanilla is fun. It's something different, it sure as hell blows rtw vanilla out of the water. Give it time, it grows on you, although I had to stop playing about 3 days after I got it because the passive AI thing was so annoying... fun for the first couple times, but it got old fast. Anyway, my 2 cents.

I've personally been enjoying this game and i have to admit that it has the potential to be one of the greatest games of all time. I've tried ignoring all the bugs and turning a blind eye at the shortcomings.
With more patches and mods to look forward to, i think i'll be playing this game for a long while yet.
However, the only thing that has well and truly bothered me so far is the whole "Elephant in a VW" aspect, how hundreds of units can squeeze into a tiny area and create a solid, impenetrable mass of death (to you). You'd think that it would fix the "Order a unit to charge, 5 guys actually doing the fighting, the rest standing back and cheering their comrades on" problem... but alas, it doesn't.
For me this is the only issue which i feel won't be fixed and really detracts from the gameplay.

In short, i never ever thought of myself as an optimist, but in this case, looking at these rants, i'm getting quite confused.

The OP was a tad harsh...but I fall into the not that happy group..at present.

Sadly the ist patch has not done much either..some improvements..but the game is badly balanced...

Despite only having it a few weeks..I am not playing it a whole lot...the odd game now and then. With previous ones I was hooked for months..and months...not so here. That speaks volumes really.

It is a let down really...clearly is was rushed, the only hope is that CA spend some time to address the issues and AI etc...

AI is poor being honest....on the map and in battle..only sometimes it seems ok. I rarely loose a battle..and I dont feel I am a great player either.

If I were to rate it now..as a reviewer..it would only get maybe 65-70%..if it is fixed and balanced...maybe 85%+

CA have let themselves down on this one..after all the killer AI hype...it is probably worse than any previous game. RTW had issues..and problems..and weak spots..but at the time it was released..it hit the right notes..this is a glossy re-run with broken bits added on.

I posted this in another thread. But I think it's more relevant here.

I have to say I am amazed at the sheer amount of tweaking/downloading/modding/hunting around the forums for said downloads that I have had to do JUST to get the game to work as it was probably intended!

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Originally Posted by JFC

I posted this in another thread. But I think it's more relevant here.

I have to say I am amazed at the sheer amount of tweaking/downloading/modding/hunting around the forums for said downloads that I have had to do JUST to get the game to work as it was probably intended!

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Chances are though, half the "broken" stuff you would never have noticed anyway if the modders hadn't drawn your attention to it.

The game is still great despite the flaws. I'm on my eighth grand campaign already.