Saddam Hussein's execution: V

econ21's thread got lost in a glitch with the database, so I have deleted that attempt and have his permission to re-post what he wrote.

Please let's keep this discussion civil as he requests.

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Originally Posted by econ21

We've had three locked threads connected to Saddam's execution. But it seems sad if the Backroom can't discuss a current event as salient as this, so let's try a fourth time to get a thread that does not need to be locked.

I want to have a go with a fourth thread, because the execution has created a strong, negative, feeling in me that I don't think has been articulated so far.

When I first realised that Saddam was likely to be executed - long ago, at the start of his trial - I had mixed feelings. I could see the Nuremburg analogy and I reviled the man. But confronting the reality has hardened my view against it. Seeing an old man with a noose around his neck, surrounded by hooded executioners, is a disturbing image. It reminds me of those awful "snuff" videos of the terrorists and their soon to be beheaded orange clothed prisoners. It invokes pity and sadness because it shows a man about to die. And it angers me because my government (the UK) has been complicit in what led up to it and because it lowers "our side" to a level perilously close to that of Saddam and the jihadi terrorists. I would like to say that we don't kill people in cold blood, that we don't torture, that we don't deprive people of liberty for years without trial. But I can't.

I am against capital punishment and in essence, the issue of capital punishment is almost all this case boils down to. But, like most red blooded people, I can momentarily waiver in my opposition to the death penalty when faced with a specific heinous crime or monstrous criminal. Yet, somehow, Saddam's case just reinforced my opposition to any executions.

This is despite my firm belief that Saddam was a gangster and a particularly murderous one. And I have no reasonable doubt that he committed the crime for which he was executed, as well as many more.

But there is just something repellant in coldly taking a helpless man's life. If in war, an enemy soldier is pointing a gun at you, I would have no hesitation in saying kill him. I am not a pacifist. But to take a man's life when there is a simple non-violent alternative (life imprisonment) just seems wrong. I know I can't persuade anyone of that view - it's axiomatic; you either share it or you do not. A life has an instrinsic value, whether it's that of an old mass murderer in a cell, or a newborn baby in Iraq. Taking it unnecessarily seems disrespectful of humanity, malign and I want to say devoid of love, to use the language probably derived my Christian upbringing.

I am generally suspicious of "slippery slope" arguments, but they do seem to apply here. Once you start killing people in cold blood, it becomes easier to contemplate launching a missile into an Al Jahazeera office because you don't like their message, taking a few captured insurgents round the back to be summarily executed or poisoning a dissident who is agitating against you. Executions seem to entail a state sponsored level of brutality that weaken our sensibilities and defenses against lethal abuses of state power.

Will there be an instrumental benefit in having taken Saddam's life? To be honest, I don't really care. That's not the point. You could make arguments either way, although it does not seem auspicious (some Iraqi Sunnis apparently viewing the execution as a declaration of war).

Maybe we can't discuss this issue in a civilised manner. Maybe the battlelines are too clearly drawn. It's too much a case of "one for our side!" and "gotcha!". American soldiers are being killed every week in Iraq and Saddam, probably wrongly, is identified as the figurehead of the killers. (If it were OBL instead of Saddam on the gallows, I might momentarily waiver again. But after this experience, I doubt it.) But let's try to discuss it without flames or cheap shots.

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:bow:

I like to put it like this:

If two men ride down a street and kill an 8 year old child for no reason, should they get the death penalty?

So if a dictator gasses and kills an entire village because of one assasination attempt, should he be put to death? Remember, these were unarmed civilians, women and children too.

YAY! It's about time!
No offence to any terrorists here, but I'm really glad this happened. :D

I have a link to the real thing (not the edited one I put in the video thread)


If anyone wants to see it pm me. It'd be pretty terrifying to be in his shoes. It's bad enough they were about to hang him but it seemed like they were chanting at him while doing it.

I don't think they should have leaked it but...if it's out there I figured I might as well watch it.

I have mixed feelings similar (though not identical) to econ21's with capital punishment in general.

But regarding Mr. Hussein: it's not my country, or my court system, or my legislature - so I am entitled to no opinion, in my opinion; rather like I view Texas executions.

That said, the taunting by masked executioners, seems unprofessional in the extreme to these Western eyes.

Saw it. Thanks SFTS.

Does professionalism come into it at all? Not in my view. The entire trial itself
was a mockery, and the process [taunting included or not] itself was enough to
add significantly to the hatred felt across that part of the world.

Yeap, it was a great moment of justice. A court where judges were removed, lawyers killed… And the execution by hooded executioners was just the mirror of the trial. Were they scared or ashamed to participate? Were they obliged or did they volunteer? It wasn’t Nuremberg… It wasn’t even The Hague, the political court. It was a revolutionary trial without the St Just as prosecutor and his sentences (no freedom for the enemies of freedom…). It was a farce where nothing was explained, and brought to the light. Saddam was guilty, and was sentenced and executed for a crime he did commit. But when will we learn about Hallabjah, the war against Iran, the slaughter of the Arab of the swamp? He was executed for the lesser crime, and Chirac, Rumsfeld and all the politicians who sold him weapons and went to shake his hands can now breathe freely. They won’t have to answer difficult questions, even if the chances were even narrower than for Milocevic’s trial…
Well done, and mission accomplished…:clown:

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

I have mixed feelings similar (though not identical) to econ21's with capital punishment in general.

But regarding Mr. Hussein: it's not my country, or my court system, or my legislature - so I am entitled to no opinion, in my opinion; rather like I view Texas executions.

That said, the taunting by masked executioners, seems unprofessional in the extreme to these Western eyes.

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The concerns I have from the apparent taunting and the release of the unofficial recording are twofold:

First, the taunts seem to be very sectarian as the name of Moqtadr al-Sadr was prominent. This further enhances the view that this was a simple revenge by the Shia dominated government rather than a judicial execution. Sunnis were already going to be alienated by the sentence, this appears to be extra salt in the sectarian wound. And if al-Sadr is associated with Saddam's execution, this builds his power base evn more among the Shia. (Remeber that this fellow is hardly supportive of the occupation, US influence or indeed the current government).

Second, Saddam actually came off as dignified and somewhat courageous, challenging his tormentors and belying the official government propaganda that he went to his death a cowed and frightened man.

The latter is probably as irrelevant in the long run as his execution, as the insurgency has moved a long way past being the remnants of the old order. The former, sectarian impact will just deepen divisions.

If the execution had to happen (and everyone knows my views, so I'll not go there) it should have been controlled much more professionally. I can fully understand why the US did not want to be involved, but the tawdry spectacle will not have helped their cause.

I agree that it came across as very unprofessional and primitive. This is exactly how an execution should not be done.

I would have been more satisified with a hospital setting, even for the gallows. White walls, brightly lit, professional uniforms, and total silence except for the presence and speech of a judge or supervisor. The execution should have been delayed by the slightest hint of unprofessionalism.

This only makes the process appear corrupt. :no:

I am very dissapointed.

So they was Chanting as him when he was getting Excuted? No Big Deal. He Derserved it. If you was him, would you like it? mabye not, but even still.

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Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888

So they was Chanting as him when he was getting Excuted? No Big Deal. He Derserved it. If you was him, would you like it? mabye not, but even still.

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You have a disturbingly cheap view of the dignity of human life. I find it interesting that even Divinus Arma, one of the posters I would expect to be strongly in favour of the execution (as it seems you are DA), came out criticising the actual process of execution.

This cheer squad of he deserved it who cares let him die without any care for dignity seems to be reducing the act of taking another persons life to mere comedy or entertainment. I have never had to take anothers life, something for which I am thankful, but I have talked to those who have. It has impacted all of them profoundly and they all wish that they never had to do it. Even at executions the roles are split, no one person can fully say I killed the prisoner, no matter how heinous they are, to avoid this enormity.

I wonder Warman, have you ever taken someones life, or is it all just a meld between entertainment and news for you?

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Originally Posted by Productivity

You have a disturbingly cheap view of the dignity of human life. I find it interesting that even Divinus Arma, one of the posters I would expect to be strongly in favour of the execution (as it seems you are DA), came out criticising the actual process of execution.

This cheer squad of he deserved it who cares let him die without any care for dignity seems to be reducing the act of taking another persons life to mere comedy or entertainment. I have never had to take anothers life, something for which I am thankful, but I have talked to those who have. It has impacted all of them profoundly and they all wish that they never had to do it. Even at executions the roles are split, no one person can fully say I killed the prisoner, no matter how heinous they are, to avoid this enormity.

I wonder Warman, have you ever taken someones life, or is it all just a meld between entertainment and news for you?

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Well, if you were chosen to hang the man who was a tyrant of your country and killed your friends/family, wouldn't you be happy to see him gone?

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Originally Posted by Patriarch of Constantinople

Well, if you were chosen to hang the man who was a tyrant of your country and killed your friends/family, wouldn't you be happy to see him gone?

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Would I be happy to see him gone? I guess so, it's a position I never want to be in, but yes, I would be glad to see him gone, in the sense that he can no longer harm my family/country. I'd define gone as the point at which he was captured by the US though, from there he couldn't harm anyone. From there I would expect due process and life imprisonment. Not a farce of a trial and a bloodthirsty act of revenge.

Would I be happy to see him gone in that he is dead? Ask yourself this. How has the world changed for his lack of life. Is it safer? Is it better? I'd argue no to both of these, his death changed nothing in practice. The one thing that it did change in practice, was that those that were owed a process for the crimes comitted against them have now been robbed of that chance.

So what did we gain from having a dead Saddam as opposed to a live Saddam. Tell me that and then I'll reconsider how I'd feel.

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So they was Chanting as him when he was getting Excuted? No Big Deal.

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No big deal huh ?:dizzy2:
Its a very big deal warmann , but I don't expect you can comprehend that since it appears that actions that will be used to increase sectarian conflict do not seem to register on your scope of things that will be used to increase sectarian conflict .:no:

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If you was him, would you like it? mabye not, but even still.

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Ah I see , well the funny thing is that it isn't really about if Saddam would have liked the taunts , its whether the nuts with guns get yet another reason to go crazy killing more people .

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Originally Posted by Productivity

You have a disturbingly cheap view of the dignity of human life. I find it interesting that even Divinus Arma, one of the posters I would expect to be strongly in favour of the execution (as it seems you are DA), came out criticising the actual process of execution.

This cheer squad of he deserved it who cares let him die without any care for dignity seems to be reducing the act of taking another persons life to mere comedy or entertainment. I have never had to take anothers life, something for which I am thankful, but I have talked to those who have. It has impacted all of them profoundly and they all wish that they never had to do it. Even at executions the roles are split, no one person can fully say I killed the prisoner, no matter how heinous they are, to avoid this enormity.

I wonder Warman, have you ever taken someones life, or is it all just a meld between entertainment and news for you?

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Oh Wait Productivity, Please go tell that to everyone who had family and/or friends murder by him. He Killed Thousands apon Thousands of People for no apprant reason, and he derserved what he recived, and I don't want any person to come to me and say "Well I am a Devout Relgiolius Person and think he should have got life" or "I'm just a normal person and think he should have got life", yet a "decent" executions.


And I wonder, have you ever taken someone's life, or is it entertainment and news for you?

Because No, I haven't. Mabye you have, but I haven't.Yes it is Entertainment. Why? He Killed people for no reason, and got what he did to Many people, he got himself executed. Would I kill Someone? Hell Yes I would, and don't argue with me about it. Self-Defense wise I will, but that the ONLY time I will. If someone is threating me and/or my family/friends, then I will have no choice in taking out my gun and settling it with a sad,but true, bullet to the head in Self-Defense.

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Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888

Oh Wait Productivity, Please go tell that to everyone who had family and/or friends murder by him. He Killed Thousands apon Thousands of People for no apprant reason, and he derserved what he recived, and I don't want any person to come to me and say "Well I am a Devout Relgiolius Person and think he should have got life" or "I'm just a normal person and think he should have got life", yet a "decent" executions.


And I wonder, have you ever taken someone's life, or is it entertainment and news for you?

Because No, I haven't. Mabye you have, but I haven't.Yes it is Entertainment. Why? He Killed people for no reason, and got what he did to Many people, he got himself executed. Would I kill Someone? Hell Yes I would, and don't argue with me about it. Self-Defense wise I will, but that the ONLY time I will. If someone is threating me and/or my family/friends, then I will have no choice in taking out my gun and settling it with a sad,but true, bullet to the head in Self-Defense.

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Agreed.

If someone killed your family for no reason, wouldn't you want revenge?

Better he had been shot in his hidey-hole. The farcical trial and (essentially) public execution does little to legitimise the Iraqi government at home and less to dispel its image as a puppet state (if we can even call it that) abroad.

Why some of you insist on viewing the whole sorry episode on the net is beyond me. It seems rather ghoulish and distinctly uncivilised. When the Taliban publically executed people in a football ground it was regarded as a mark of their barbarism.

I also fail to see why so many Americans regard Saddam as their personal enemy.

Edit:

If in truth the footage of the execution does indeed strengthen the cause of one of the warlords looking for power when the allies withdraw then it has truely been a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888

Because No, I haven't. Mabye you have, but I haven't.

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I've allready answered that, I have never killed someone and hope that I never have to.

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Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888

Yes it is Entertainment.

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You have absolutely no stake in this as far as I can tell, so no prime motive of revenge to justify this. You view watching someone die as entertainment? I don't think I can actually communicate with you. I'm more in touch with Jupiter than I am with someone who would view watching an execution as entertainment.

I was going to respond further, but I'm still struggling to comprehend that you view an execution as entertainment. I don't think my mind can function in the same way as yours can to be honest.

If the US is indeed looking towards the 80% solution for Iraq, then a live Saddam would have been more useful than a dead one. Kept alive but secure, we could make the implicit threat that we'll give up on the mission and reinstall him if the Shi'ites and Kurds got uppity. A dead Saddam is of no use to us.

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

Better he had been shot in his hidey-hole. The farcical trial and (essentially) public execution does little to legitimise the Iraqi government at home and less to dispel its image as a puppet state (if we can even call it that) abroad.

Why some of you insist on viewing the whole sorry episode on the net is beyond me. It seems rather ghoulish and distinctly uncivilised. When the Taliban publically executed people in a football ground it was regarded as a mark of their barbarism.

I also fail to see why so many Americans regard Saddam as their personal enemy.

Edit:

If in truth the footage of the execution does indeed strengthen the cause of one of the warlords looking for power when the allies withdraw then it has truely been a waste of time.

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Perhaps the footage was to serve as some measure of validation for them that this entire venture in Iraq wasn't merely a waste of lives securing US interests: over-simplification, although it is there, displayed as yet another banner, the "bad guy" is dead, and as was said, mission accomplished. Only the image is shattered, for those who strangely seem to have expected this shambolic [indeed, corrupt] affair to be sanitised for their viewing. It appears, simply because it is, nothing more than victor's justice hastily carried out. Much like Ceauşescu, only the murderers in this case will be viewed as working for a puppet regime, rather than a revolutionary force which is essentially free from external control.

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Originally Posted by Productivity

I've allready answered that, I have never killed someone and hope that I never have to.



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You have absolutely no stake in this as far as I can tell, so no prime motive of revenge to justify this. You view watching someone die as entertainment? I don't think I can actually communicate with you. I'm more in touch with Jupiter than I am with someone who would view watching an execution as entertainment.

I was going to respond further, but I'm still struggling to comprehend that you view an execution as entertainment. I don't think my mind can function in the same way as yours can to be honest.

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So you won't debate with someone because they don't have the same view as you? Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice.

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Originally Posted by Patriarch of Constantinople

So you won't debate with someone because they don't have the same view as you? Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice.

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I'm happy to debate other views, but there comes a point at which there is no common ground and nothing left to debate. There can never be any understanding and so nothing can be gained from the debate. I feel that point has been reached here...

Quite aside from the death penalty, which I believe to be wrong and doubly so in the case of former heads of state, the manner in which this one was performed repels me. It is not the exact manner in which the execution took place but the fact that it was filmed and used to make some kind of political statement: this approach treats his death as a milestone, as something to be proud of, and this is not a view I can agree with. It is the same callous disregard for the value of life displayed under Saddam's own rule and it is not something I'd have though the new government or the US government would want to associate itself with.

And the more recent footage containing taunts directed at Saddam does more damage than good. For a trial that could have been a defining legal precedent, the conclusion underlined exactly what the rest of the trial was: a legal shambles.

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Originally Posted by Patriarch of Constantinople

So you won't debate with someone because they don't have the same view as you? Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice.

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Let's face it, he wasn't exactly contributing useful reasonings to the debate.

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Originally Posted by Patriarch of Constantinople

So you won't debate with someone because they don't have the same view as you? Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice.

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I believe that Productivity has recognised that BHCKingWarman and he are unlikely to develop the debate constructively because of their very differing perspective.

To withdraw before setting up an emotionally charged confrontation is not only very mature and wise, it is much appreciated by those of us who might have had to clear up the pieces.

:bow:

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I'm happy to debate other views, but there comes a point at which there is no common ground and nothing left to debate. There can never be any understanding and so nothing can be gained from the debate. I feel that point has been reached here...

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Hmmmmmm.......

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Let's face it, he wasn't exactly contributing useful reasonings to the debate.

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yesssss ....
OK I shall take up on Warmans "it was entertaining viewing" reasoning .
Don't you guys find it exceptionally entertaining that at the execution of this person who was wanted dead or alive by the US in part for killing Iraqi people of different views to ensure his position , that members of the audience were chanting the name of someone who just happens to be wanted dead or alive by the US , in part for killing Iraqi people of different views to ensure his position .
So you must admit warman was actually right on the nail with his reasoning about it being entertaining . :2thumbsup:
Unless of course he meant something else entirely ~;)

I would prefer the end of the death penalty. Though not the barbarism some claim, the death penalty rarely invokes the angels of our better natures. In this case, I think an aging and incarcerated Saddam -- well treated but marginalized -- might have been the more telling image.

Nevertheless, I also disagree with the earlier comment about the death penalty being wrong "doubly so for national leaders." [paraphrase not quote] Extant power/legal/cultural systems already make it too easy for such leaders to function outside the boundaries of their own legal systems. This tendency should NOT be encouraged. Our leaders cannot and should not be aided in the ability to view/hold themselves as above the law -- it's a byproduct of their power enough already and we should not formalize it.

Public executions have often -- always? -- carried with them a sad comment on humanity's willingness to view them as entertainment. Saddam's was no exception. DA's model would have been better, but human-kind rarely kills its own in such a fashion.

The point is that reveling in his death in any manner should be abhorent. Even if you felt his crimes warranted not only incarceration but death, that death should have been meted out in the same fashion that one would execute a dog gone rabid. It's a menace so you kill it quickly and cleanly and then remove the mess. Perhaps a bit of quiet satisfaction for doing a job professionally that had to be done, but surely no cause for celebration. Celebrating such a thing speaks ill of the celebrant -- Saddam has already gone on to whatever reward awaits him.

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Originally Posted by Productivity

I've allready answered that, I have never killed someone and hope that I never have to.



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You have absolutely no stake in this as far as I can tell, so no prime motive of revenge to justify this. You view watching someone die as entertainment? I don't think I can actually communicate with you. I'm more in touch with Jupiter than I am with someone who would view watching an execution as entertainment.

I was going to respond further, but I'm still struggling to comprehend that you view an execution as entertainment. I don't think my mind can function in the same way as yours can to be honest.

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Then If you can't Debate with me, and I can't debate with you, then lets not say anything else. Your views in this post made no sense to me.


and Yes I was. I was putting my own Views up here. If you don't like it, then don't post here in the Backroom and don't debate with me. Plain and Simple people.

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Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888

Then If you can't Debate with me, and I can't debate with you, then lets not say anything else. Your views in this post made no sense to me.

and Yes I was. I was putting my own Views up here. If you don't like it, then don't post here in the Backroom and don't debate with me. Plain and Simple people.

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You are both entitled to your views, and Productivity is perfectly entitled to both post in, and withdraw from debate as he sees fit.

Please accept his decision and let's move on.

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Your views in this post made no sense to me.

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Do I see a vessel that has boiled water too often over an open fire there ?:yes: :laugh4:
So making sense , great idea . So an earlier post

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Please go tell that to everyone who had family and/or friends murder by him.

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Well a quick view of any in depth news would show that that makes no sense . Once again Warman you have decided to champion the cause of the victims relatives without bothering with what they themselves have to say , little things like being denied justice and feeling cheated .

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He Killed Thousands apon Thousands of People for no apprant reason

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That also makes no sense either , he started killing before he was in power ,he had reasons . The day when he siezed power he broadcast footage of people being dragged from the hall to be killed , he had reasons .
When he gassed the Kurds he had reasons . When he did the killings for which he was executed he had reasons .

So clearly plainly and simply , you make no sense .:shrug:

BTW was I right in interpreting your "entertainment" viewpoint or was you meaning something else entirely ?:laugh4: