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That's a good idea really. Can we start this discussion please?Quote:
Originally Posted by pevergreen
Which forums would be required? I guess it's nice to have a Barracks like forum, like in the past, to muster clanmembers. But perhaps there are other ideas too?
No it isn't a good idea, and every clan has their own forums to deal with bad blood between clans. No need to bring drivel and slop to a good place for information and fun.Quote:
That's a good idea really. Can we start this discussion please?
Which forums would be required? I guess it's nice to have a Barracks like forum, like in the past, to muster clanmembers. But perhaps there are other ideas too?
How about this instead, put a link to here.http://forums.totalwars.net/
And leave the Drivel where it belongs.:yes:
Bottom mate I think tosa just means he wants suggestions for the mp forums.
The quoted post was just sort of how to set out suggestions in a nice, civliszed (sp) way :2thumbsup:
Its nice to see TosaInu and other admins take an interest in the multiplayer side of things, though i believe a warzone will not be beneficial unfortunately :-(
Make love not warzone. :clown:
I do not think either that the ORG would need a warzone.
What would be good though is a tourney forum where tourney annoncements can be made and tourney results can be posted. Like the jousting fields. (And that is why the current name of this forum is misleading, as it is for tactical discussion and bug reports; I already said it before the naming event took place but no one was listening ...) Of course each major tourney has its forums but it would be good to have one where these tourneys could be reviewed, major events (like deadlines, winners) kept tracked.
If you re-read the Topic...Make a Warzone...post #23 and then refer to Tosas post with quote above.
You will see that pevergreen was suggesting, in his reply to the author of the Make a Warzone Topic, what would have been a more polite, civilised way of posting.
It was not a request to set this up.
Sorry for not being clear: it is a good idea to have a civil discussion and a civil result from that discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Bear7Bottom
I've visited the NET in the past and I've seen some public forums from some clansites, and some of that content has no place here.
However, there are several other things that do have a place here. The Barracks, like used in the STW and MTW days, were not my favourite hangout. Apart from some exceptions, it worked well though.
Right now, the tourney and clan messages (no not the 'bloodbad' ones, but that's not the only aspect of clans is it?) are 'swamped' in the other MP related topics here. Something like a Musterfield forum could be added.
I'm sure you can think/see other needs too. Perhaps something like a tactical analysis of battles you played, an MP AAR? Perhaps some mini campaigns? It doesn't matter much, as long as it's ok for everyone.
Well a replays section could be pretty cool the only problem is to get people to use it. Obviously some like to closely guard their tactics. But personally I'd have no problem in submitting some, however I do understand why some people may not want to. Perhaps some kind of poll asking who would submit replays or something.
A mustering hall, well being just a young nooblet I never played stw at all or mtw online, so I'm not sure how a musturing hall would work. I'd also like to point out most people who visit these forums are already clanned.
I like cheatahs idea, it also ties into your idea tosa about AARs, because tourney AARs could possibly be posted there, and also mine because tourney replays could be posted there. Perhaps tournaments could get a pinned topic each in this forum, in it would be enlclosed some information about the tourney and the results can be posted up there.
Just a few ideas,
With ten people posting here I don't see much use in another lobby.
How about a lobby, which only recognized clan leaders (or their designated Emissary) could actually post in. This would allow the announcement of new members, of recruitment, of tournament, leagues, etc . . All without some of the negative interference you see in some MP clan forums on major official sites. It would be easily moderated, if necessary and it would be a central place to come for clan news and happenings in the MP community.
I think a section to post AARs would be nice as well as another section to post replays and screenshots of battles. This would allow for some interesting discussions on maps and how best to attack/defend and other such team tactics.
Clans are doing a disservice to the MP community by not discussing such things. People who might stay around if they were able to learn such information now just get frustrated and leave since they don't stand a chance of winning, without such info. It all leads to a smaller MP community and one which eventually dies away.
I would rather be an average player in a very large MP community than one of the top players in a very small one.
Besides, if you TRULY believe you are skillful, you do not need to hide behind secret units/tactics/etc . . You will win anyways. Why not share things with the community as a whole?
It all leads to a better, larger, more-competitive MP experience. That was another reason why STW and MTW were so well thought of. They were very large MP communities and most clans were willing to train new players and show them all the "secrets". It didn't kill any clan's success. There were more excellent clans during those times than ever.
Good luck in deciding.
:bow: I am honoured to be quoted by the might Tosa.
As people have said, that was just a suggestion, and I was quite angry at the time, defending the org's honour :laugh4:
More than 10 people post here (me!) but not very often, as not much discussion happens.
That is why i believe Elmo should be MP forum moderator :laugh2: (no offence to any MP mods if there are any, Elmo is just so uber)Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmo
:bow:
No Warzone? gooooood.
Not sure you are all aware of this, but the 7Bear7 Clan has an extensive training program since Shogun Total War for all new players to the game. Even the worse player ever can go through our training program and become a well rounded player in a matter of 3 months.
We have an extensive archive of army builds, tactics, and replays spanning over the generation of games that have been available to anyone who wanted to join a clan and was very new to the game.
Posting replays can cause "some" people to get upset. This is the major reason we do not post such ideas, in the past it generated hostility towards us. So we decided to develop this training program of scrolls to develop individual new players instead.
Seven years of thought has gone into this clan and is one of the reason we are still here today. As it was thought out in the beginning, we still have an open door policy for all new players in the community.
It would be interesting to see the reactions to replays if you guys decide to do this.
I'll be right here with anticipation watching this develop.
*Jumps behind sand bags and puts helmet on*
The danger with posting replays here, is that it does show a certain degree of disrespect towards the losing player.
Too often there are grudges held between players in the MP community, and allowing such displays would only lead to more aggression.The same applies to screenshots.
So do they have to join the 7Bear7 clan as a new recruit to have access to this vast library or is it open to anyone who asks?
If it is just to those who want to join the 7Bear7 clan then my previous statements are still valid.
New players leave because there is no public place to lay out such things so anyone has access to it, not just a few select individuals. This limits the size of the MP community in the manner described in my previous post. What about all the non-clan MP players out there? Should they not have access to such info.?
During Fearful Ways days, when I was its Daimyo, we didn't keep any secrets about the game we were playing. We played with anyone and anybody and showed players from different clans and non-clan'rs our tactics, our armies, and anything else they needed to be aware of. The MP community was beginning to fade, due to everyone's perception that defending gave the advantage to the defender, and the perception that camping was the way to win. Fearful Ways helped keep a lot of players in the community by proving even the hardest-looking maps (Such as Tosa) could be won against even good players if teamwork and tactics were used. Not by any secret information, nor secret tricks which few knew about.
I am not sure if any of you were around for our Big Tosa Mountain Map challenge, but we won more than we lost. Many of those new players we played with and trained went on to form their own clans, clans which are still around today. We never required them to join our clan, nor did we hold back any information. I think that was why the clan community grew as large as it did in the STW/MTW days.
This is why I see an MP discussion section, which allows for screenshots and AARs to be posted is a very good idea. The NF's Naked Fanatics have been posting replays at their site and linking to them from several forums and I have yet to see anyone who participated in those games getting upset by the replays or the discussions which followed. The .org was a very nice MP forum at one time, before certain things beyond the scope of the MP game interfered (Tera-Gate and ThePurge). Before that, it was a very interesting area of the forum. It could be that again since most of those who left, no longer play and there are many new players who would be interested in such a section.
It was stated there are few patrons who participate here regularly, which appears to be the norm for most other forums who have MP sections. I believe the reason why is the largest portion of the MP community (Clans) is no longer out there recruiting (not for the clan) but for the interest of players who are thinking of trying MP out. I do not see any clans currently offering any input to new players on how to play the game, what units/army builds are the best for a given era and florin level, and other things of interest to enjoying this game. From what I have seen, during my short time back, the clan community has insulated itself from the rest of the MP community by keeping their MP discussions in their own private forums instead of in the public ones where they used to be.
For those that want a truly level-playing field, there should be no discussion of units/armies/tactics that is taboo to discuss with the rest of the community. Though, I am not sure with the current clan environment, if it is possible at this time. There are a bunch of good clans out there, who play honest and fair, but most of them still hold back on their discussions so they can maintain that slight edge. Though I can guarantee you that every competitive clan has learned each and every one of those "edge" items and the only ones left out are the new & non-clan players who will leave in frustration when having to constantly face those who know the "edge". So why would some clans still not discuss these things openly, when their main competition (other clans) already have such info? I know a lot of clan members who need no edge to win, so why hold back in the forums?
Just a quick question: How does posting screenshots and replays show disrespect for any players? If the discussions are over what happened during the battle and the defining points of the match, and there are no accusations of cheating, etc . . how can this be construed as disrespect?
Everyone loses in this game. There isn't anybody who has played team games who hasn't lost more than once. If they think others will lose respect for them because they lost a few games, then the problem lies not in the posting of the replay, but in the losing player's personality/ego.
I think I understand what you are getting at: If replays and screenshots are allowed to be posted with comments like "He sucked", "His stupid move here lost the game.", "My loser of a partner didn't cover my flank." etc . . . then I can see where the disrespect comes into play.
However, if someone is designated to this new section to edit/delete out such childishness, then I don't see a problem with replays, screenshots, AARs and discussions of tactics. You just have to keep clan politics and egos out of it, which is easy to do by someone the clan community knows and respects as being impartial -- like Tomisama -- to name but one.
Here is a .com discussion which provides a link to the NF site where replays/screens are posted discussed. I might help to see what such a section look like:
http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotal...icID=401.topic
I probably have lost more games in TW than anyone in the community. I have seen replays of my many losses and have been kidded by those who played in the matches when I made bonehead mistakes. It was all in good fun and everyone enjoyed themselves in the game. I never once felt anyone was showing me any disrespect by posting their AAR, replay, or screenshot of the game.
Aye Elmo, but the discussions we have at the =NF= forums aren't serious, just like The Forumites, =NF= isn't a serious clan. Like we care if we lose, it's just fun to play the game. Everyone who visits the =NF= forums knows eachother, and we respect eachother (yeah even Guy and me ~D ). That's different from this, here we have all sorts of people, and different clans. I've seen some post made by so called self-proclaimed-veterans who think they're so good, and if you critise them they think they're under attack and start firing back.
I agree Stig. There will always be ego's to contend with, but I believe the majority of players are similar to the NF's and Ugly's. They play for fun.
Replays are invaluable in discussing team tactics. Lines of attack, maneuvering, etc . . You can learn a lot about watching replays and then discussing at what point the game turned into one team's favor. This kind of open discussion will only help those to decide to play MP and/or continue playing MP. It's good PR for the MP community. I would love to train players on the team aspect of MP. 1v1's are fine, but they are just a small taste of the fun you can have playing with others. People get burned out on 1v1's, if that is what they always play. By discussing team games with replays, screenshots, and AAR's it can show how exciting such play is. Most of those that stick around for the long term are 2v2 and up players.
Encouraging players to try team games by peaking their interest with such discussions, can only help the MP community (including the clan community) over the long haul. It has more to do with the community itself than the game. I know several people who stuck it out, even though they weren't thrilled with RTW's MP, just because they didn't want to leave their friends. I also know many more who left, not because of the game, but because the MP community didn't provide a good experience for them, due to its super-secretiveness and over-competitiveness. That was one of the reasons Obake and I formed the Ugly community. Things needed to change and we offered a nice alternative.
Aye, 2v2 and 3v3 are one of the main reasons I "joined" NF (am no proper member), I'm a member of The Forumites, but we're sort of death, most of us play much if we play a game once a week ... and then only for the MP campaign. The NF guys are far more active which means bigger change on a 3v3, which are the best imo ... especially when you decide to go for unorthodox armies and unorthodox maps.
speaking of Obake, what happened to the old Goat herder, haven't seen him in ages at the Pond
This has now become a very constructive topic. Ideas are forming and a structure seems to be developing.
If this type of forum was to bring back some of the community spirit that I was first introduced to when I started playing STW/WE mp I would give it full support. Anything that would increase the pleasure of mp can only be good for the game and the community.
I concur, I played in a little 2v2, lh vs nf, it was a very enjoyable game. I liked their attitudes alot, nice guys :yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
@ Grendel
TBH I don't think anyone here thinks that somebody else has never lost a game. All this stigma of disrespect surrounding posting replays, imo, has just been around because people want to protect their tactics. As I've said before check out a site such as gamereplays.org, on normal RTS its actually considered more disrespectful if you don't post replays yourself, because it appears that your just looking at everyone elses without giving anything back.Quote:
The danger with posting replays here, is that it does show a certain degree of disrespect towards the losing player.
Too often there are grudges held between players in the MP community, and allowing such displays would only lead to more aggression.The same applies to screenshots.
Replays could also serve as a way to help newer players improve, more experienced players could download and offer tips on army builds, formations etc.
Furthermore, replays would actually give us something to discuss around here that isn't bugs or balancing. It would lead to direct conversations concerning how to combat certain types of army etc.
Anywho, I agree with Elmo's comments too :yes:
Again, just from administrative side and plain usefulness of new lobby. You do not need another lobby just for people sharing tactics and advices, why can't this be done here? Open a thread and see how it goes, then If you see it getting a lot of attention open a new lobby.
Gah! Elmo just said everything I was thinking:idea2:
I was dying to spend all night typing a similar essay but he beat me to it:wall: , so now i'd just like to say
Ditto to Elmo's comments:2thumbsup:
I try to play for fun both Ducky and myself do :D problem is when you start winning you ego gets fed and then someone like myself turns into a maniac when i lose a game i should have won lol. Yea............before I was like yay i lost! "thanks to Elmo's training" but since ive won more than lost and began to take it too seriously again :oops:
:juggle2:
I'm not sure or understand what you are saying Elmo, on the one hand you said this.
That is what 7Bear7 does, thought you knew that, we have never rejected an application to our clan yet that I know of. All new players are welcomed.Quote:
That was another reason why STW and MTW were so well thought of. They were very large MP communities and most clans were willing to train new players and show them all the "secrets". It didn't kill any clan's success. There were more excellent clans during those times than ever.
Then, on the other hand you are also saying this.
I can't tell you how many times I have trained new players in a game that were not 7Bear7, not just me, but Kuma, Dej, Polar, Scar, etc.Quote:
So do they have to join the 7Bear7 clan as a new recruit to have access to this vast library or is it open to anyone who asks?
If it is just to those who want to join the 7Bear7 clan then my previous statements are still valid.
New players leave because there is no public place to lay out such things so anyone has access to it, not just a few select individuals. This limits the size of the MP community in the manner described in my previous post. What about all the non-clan MP players out there? Should they not have access to such info.?
We play for fun and always host hill maps, meaning we are at the bottom of the hill and the other side is at the top.:)
Many players have been trained as Bears and have moved on to other clans with our doors always open for them.
We don't PW our games and they are open for all to join, unlike other people who just let a select few in.
Part of our clan code of honor is to help the community as stated here.
http://7bear7.com/codeofhonor.html
So to answer your question Elmo, anyone who wants help can get it from us without being a member of Bears.Quote:
I will freely offer help to memebers of the community
I'm a little confused, because I thought everyone knew this already about us.
But I am glad now this discusion was started so I could reiterate it again.
One thing about the replays, there's 2 ways of posting them:
1. OMG LOOK I PWNED THIS N00B
and
2. Look I had a nice 2v2 with some nice guys, thought I'd share it with you. Watch the replay it's a very entertaining battle.
I think that the first is what Grendy means, disrespectful ... tho I don't mind if I were the n00b, I'm a n00b anyway
TBH I've opened up a couple of forums myself, won't bore you with what they where about but in my experience on a forum many people for soem reason don't like to open up new threads, but they will reply to them, I don't know why but from what I've seen thats just the way it goes. Its a similiar situation here, you just need to give someone some direction/ideas on what to post and they probably will (IE. opening up designated forums.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lavos
Also, going off your philospohy of basically saying theres not point in designated forums, a main root forum can account for all. Then what would be the point of many of the org's (useful imo) forums such as the new m2 AAR sp section.
edit: Oh don't get me wrong I have my doubts about aar/replays section. Loads of people,. unfortunately the majority, very much safeguard their tactics very closely.
Thank you 7Bear7Bottom. It's good to reiterate again, and perhaps also to make it more widely known to the accidental passer by. I sure hope though, that it will be picked up by more teachers. So, this would make a 'Learn to play MP' forum? I can see the risk of bad blood with taunting there (your karate bad, my karate is best). (New) players should feel free to ask any MP question, 'tutors' safe to answer without being mocked.
That said, I understand about secret kungfu and no one will force you (a generic you) to reveil all your tricks. However, a new player is already helped much by learning the basics and beyond basics. Any MP player should be able to tell something.
Id gladly offer help on the basics if someone had questions... so sounds gd to me :yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by TosaInu
Well a forum to post your favorite tactics would be nice yes.
Thread like these would fit very well in them, but as Monarch said replies are made quicker then new threads.
Posting Replays won't be a godo idea (unless you like to show people them, like I do :D)
Why? Well, Depends on what. You give us Communtiy a replay of a normal, Friendly 1v1. Say, Me .vs....... Hm, Tosa!
So Tosa thinks it be ok to post it here. Well it is. I won't mind anyhow :)
But if Mizu/Tosa Was in a Tournment
say
CWC
and they win CWC, and have the replays
would it be a good idea to psot tournment replays here? I admit, I do have tournment replays from previous clans I was in, and I do view them for my own purposes.But For Respect of those clans, I won't pass them on. They for me, and me only and for me to use.
correct??