Cretan Archers

I was playing a game recently as Seleukids and I was disappointed to see that EB is still using a very anachronistic Cretan Archer model. I guess you are not aware of the stele of Chalkokedes from Demetrias, dated to the last quarter of the third C. BC?

From Launey, p. 282:

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This stele shows a Cretan of the garrison of Demetrias, Chalkokedes of Lyttos. The bearded man wears a white chiton which, in the military style, hardly reaches the knee, and long chlamys which, fastened around the neck, opens at the right shoulder. He wears neither armour nor carries a sword; on his head, he wears a helmet with a crest and a curved lower edge or rim which resembles the currency of the Macedonians (?); in his right hand he holds a bow of Scythian form. Behind the warrior, a small servant holds an oval shield with a yellow rim, with a central circular area on which Herakles is painted; with the left hand he holds a dagger with curved blade, with the right hand, two small javelins. No illustrated case makes known to us better the complete equipment of the Cretan archer; only the quiver appears forgotten.

Another stele shows a figure in relief (Demetrias, towards 200). Here also, as in the last one, the Cretan wears a chiton and military chlamys, as well as fitted strong boots. His helmet is like a hat of dog skin or other animal skin. On his back, he carries a shield, a quiver and perhaps a skin to attenuate the friction of the shield on the back. Of the bow, which he holds in his left hand, he prepares to strip an arrow.

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I've gotten into contact with someone who has colour images of this stele, but I haven't been able to get them yet. Here's his description:

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In regards to Cretan mercenaries, there is one example [Chalkokedes] which depicts a Cretan in a tunic with blue-black coloured cloak. He is accompanied by a boy-servant who carries his shield: a medium sized and painted, interestingly, in blue-green, showing as its blazon a naked Herakles attacking to the left, armed with spear in one hand and lion skin in the other.]

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At any rate, the bow is of Scythian form. The helmet of Chalkokedes is described by Launey later as being like that of Diodotos, also a Cretan (his stele can be seen in Sekunda's Ptolemaic Montvert title). It is a common Hellenistic type, with a small visor, a metal fin-like crest, volutes, a minimal neckguard, and cheekpieces. And he also carries a small thureos, javelins, and a dagger (I guess it isn't possible to make archers also carry javelins, is it?) I hope you consider this when skinning the EB2 Cretan archer model.

Nevermind. I said I wouldn't...so I'm not gonna.

He did say he hopes we consider it when working on EB2 mate. And we should.

Mmmmmmmgghhhhhhhhhh. :wall:

actually, i've been aware of the stele for some time, here's a pic:
https://img260.imageshack.us/img260/...anstelejp0.jpg

here is a link to the site from which i obtained the pic, warning: it is in french (as is launey, by the way):
http://lespierresquiparlent.free.fr/...alkokedes.html

speaking of launey, to which volume are you referring? at least as far as my library is concerned, his tome appears in two volumes, meinpanzer, so unless there is a single volume existing somewhere, noting the proper volume and that you are providing a translation would be helpful.

on to the image: if you can provide a more detailed or revealing image, i would welcome that very much. for as you can all see, the image depicted above leaves much to be desired, and tells us little about the equipment of a kretan archer. we might also bear in mind that soldiers are regularly under-equipped in funerary steles, in fitting with an idealized warrior form, or perhaps as befitting a warrior on a journey, as a recently departed warrior in a sense was.

As per javelins, while I'm certain that would be impossible to include (unless merely as an aesthetic, held behind the shield), I've always thought it would be nice to have a medium skirmisher kretan soldier, reflecting the light-medium infantry style according to which many kretans seem to have fought when either serving as mercenaries or in their own inter-city wars.

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Originally Posted by Sarcasm

Nevermind. I said I wouldn't...so I'm not gonna.

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Said you wouldn't what?

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actually, i've been aware of the stele for some time, here's a pic:


here is a link to the site from which i obtained the pic, warning: it is in french (as is launey, by the way):
http://lespierresquiparlent.free.fr/...alkokedes.html

speaking of launey, to which volume are you referring? at least as far as my library is concerned, his tome appears in two volumes, meinpanzer, so unless there is a single volume existing somewhere, noting the proper volume and that you are providing a translation would be helpful.

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Launey is linear, so there is only one p. 282 between both volumes. At any rate, it's in volume I. Ah, nice to see a picture, it's just too bad it's deteriorated so much- apparently pictures and/or watercolour paintings of it were made when it was just found which show much more detail.

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on to the image: if you can provide a more detailed or revealing image, i would welcome that very much. for as you can all see, the image depicted above leaves much to be desired, and tells us little about the equipment of a kretan archer. we might also bear in mind that soldiers are regularly under-equipped in funerary steles, in fitting with an idealized warrior form, or perhaps as befitting a warrior on a journey, as a recently departed warrior in a sense was.

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Sometimes yes, but I think this is a case where he is clearly, if anything, over equipped.

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As per javelins, while I'm certain that would be impossible to include (unless merely as an aesthetic, held behind the shield), I've always thought it would be nice to have a medium skirmisher kretan soldier, reflecting the light-medium infantry style according to which many kretans seem to have fought when either serving as mercenaries or in their own inter-city wars.

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Well, as I mentioned earlier, the stele of Diodotos shows a Ptolemaic Cretan with a relatively small, round shield (probably a pelte), a helmet, and javelins. The stele of Chalkokedes has got me thinking, though, that Cretans, being as renowned as they were, may have operated as both archers and javelineers variously on campaign (hence Antiochus III's Cretan shieldbearers).

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

The stele of Chalkokedes has got me thinking, though, that Cretans, being as renowned as they were, may have operated as both archers and javelineers variously on campaign (hence Antiochus III's Cretan shieldbearers).

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Yes but rome limits a unit to two weapons, and one probably has to be used for meele. If he only has arrows and javelins, sucks to be him when he runs outta ammo :laugh4: . So any javelins would have to be for show only. But as paullus said, they make some sort of funky Kretan style peltast who fights with javelins.

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Originally Posted by Fondor_Yards

Yes but rome limits a unit to two weapons, and one probably has to be used for meele. If he only has arrows and javelins, sucks to be him when he runs outta ammo :laugh4: . So any javelins would have to be for show only. But as paullus said, they make some sort of funky Kretan style peltast who fights with javelins.

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Yeah, I figured as much. The best solution is probably to break Cretans into two units: an archer with a helmet, a curved dagger, and a shield for defence, and a skirmisher with a helmet, a shield, and several javelins.

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

Said you wouldn't what?

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He's got a hot date, so if he keeps her waiting and hangs around here debating, well, AFTER the date his entertainment options will be.....fewer.

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

Yeah, I figured as much. The best solution is probably to break Cretans into two units: an archer with a helmet, a curved dagger, and a shield for defence, and a skirmisher with a helmet, a shield, and several javelins.

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You have to be kidding. 2 units almost identical and with the same purpose? No way.

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

...and a skirmisher with a helmet, a shield, and several javelins.

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Stupid question, but this differs from the current Peltastai and/or Akontistai in what meaningful sense...?

In that it's Cretan. As you say though, since we already have peltasts and skirmishers ad-infinitum we don't need another one.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Stupid question, but this differs from the current Peltastai and/or Akontistai in what meaningful sense...?

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They would be different in the sense that the Cretans were highly skilled and effective, which would allow them to be superior in stats to the average akontistai/peltastai. They were esteemed enough to be used during some very dangerous and important maneuvers by Antiochus III.

It would be something to think about more seriously (a cresshan peltastai), but two things pop to mind: they would have to be available off the island, or otherwise you'd rarely see them, and we are sort of full-up on our unit space for greeks. We have five more units (elie, elie, spear, spear, horsey - I think 5 is right, but lots of variants in those 5 too) already done now, but they won't be in 0.81. There may be a slot or two available still, but not many at all. That's the big problem, as the recruitment thing isn't really a problem - just has to be kept in mind.

The "Scythian Bow" in the hands of a cresshan archer is a logical consequence of the superior bow-technology in the east, I waited for such a picture for a long time.

With all the military revolutions they had to switch from short distance sniping to the eastern pattern of archery, making them less special...


BTW: Great Mod

Cheers
OA

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Originally Posted by Oleander Ardens

The "Scythian Bow" in the hands of a cresshan archer is a logical consequence of the superior bow-technology in the east, I waited for such a picture for a long time.

With all the military revolutions they had to switch from short distance sniping to the eastern pattern of archery, making them less special...


BTW: Great Mod

Cheers
OA

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There are actually two more carved stelai from Crete itself showing Hellenistic archers carrying Scythian style bows and quivers, too.

Thanks. Infact the typical short "Scythian" bow is a very efficient device, ideal for shooting light and lightest arrows. This ought to be quite a change from the former tactics which gravitated around shooting at heavily armored hoplites from short distances...

OA

Cretan Peltastai + Cretan Archers = Cretan Archers in EB2 :inquisitive:

Just a thought, but considering the fact that you can have at least 3 different attacks with Medieval II trebuchet units (one conventional rock throwing, one rotten carcass throwing - note the separate ammo bar involved (!)-, and one conventional dagger >> 3 forms), this might, in the future be altogether possible to mod...

Perhaps it's just something to be patient... :grin:

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Cretan Peltastai + Cretan Archers = Cretan Archers in EB2 :inquisitive:

Just a thought, but considering the fact that you can have at least 3 different attacks with Medieval II trebuchet units (one conventional rock throwing, one rotten carcass throwing - note the separate ammo bar involved (!)-, and one conventional dagger >> 3 forms), this might, in the future be altogether possible to mod...

Perhaps it's just something to be patient... :grin:

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If it would be possible to do that in EB2, it would be really cool. Just imagine the new levels of usefulness you would have for slots in your armies- an archer, a peltast, and a light close-combat fighter all in one.

Be nice for some catas too. Lance, Mace/Sword, Bow. Sweet!

Does the AI know how to handle it though?

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Be nice for some catas too. Lance, Mace/Sword, Bow

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Sweet indeed...

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Originally Posted by Sarcasm

Does the AI know how to handle it though?

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Dunno, never got to face them - only got to use them.

But then again does RTW AI, all by itself, know how to use it's (heavy) cavalry? And I believe... I read somewhere something about moddable AI?

Out of Realism purposes it would be great, regardless of what the AI does with them, out of gameplay... well, that's something you'd just need to try.

(There is, IMO, quite a difference in how the AI approaches artillery compared to the way in which it uses missile infantry. So whatever goes for trebuchets, may or may as well not reveal anything about whatever will go for the desired Cretans.)