hastati's pila won't kill a single hoplitai haploi in frontal phalanx attack

As the title says, start a custom battle, choose hastati as your own and hoplitai haploi for the other side. Let the hoplitai haploi attack you in phalanx formation, order hastati to fire at will. Allow the hastati to throw two volleys of pila. None of the hoplitai haploi will be killed by the thrown pila. Isn't this a bit strange?

When in formation phalanxes have an insane amount of sheild armor. It is just waisted to use missiles on the front of a phalanx. I agree that it is a bit retarded though.

Missles are underpowered in EB in many people's opinion.

The EB team disagrees.

I'd say in real life those pila should kill a few, but whatever. The EDU text balancing is the worst part (which is why I'm rebalancing it...)of the wonderful mod in my opinion.

At worst you would expect 2 volleys of pila to seriously disrupt the phalanx formation due to pila getting stuck in shields and screwing up the manouverability of the affected troops and those around them. As this can't really be modelled in EB, a few kills really should happen instead. No effect at all is a bit unrealistic.
Against arrows (from the front), the phalanx should be pretty well protected, but heavy javelins are another matter.

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Originally Posted by Kugutsu

At worst you would expect 2 volleys of pila to seriously disrupt the phalanx formation due to pila getting stuck in shields and screwing up the manouverability of the affected troops and those around them. As this can't really be modelled in EB, a few kills really should happen instead. No effect at all is a bit unrealistic.
Against arrows (from the front), the phalanx should be pretty well protected, but heavy javelins are another matter.

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Keep in mind that the first volley would remove the shields of many soldiers in the front rank, making them very vulnerable to the second volley.

Hoplitai comes from hoplo or the round shield. Made from Bronze reinforced from within with single or mostly double skin, mostly that of cow. Arrows couldn't penetrate it. Pilae didn't either. Pilae worked on the wooden shields with the iron boss that Lusotannan, Iberians, Averni etc, but rarely on hopla. It would have to be a very strong, really near and applied to exactly the right angle to achieve armor piercing status.

EB's results are fine.

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Originally Posted by keravnos

Hoplitai comes from hoplo or the round shield. Made from Bronze reinforced from within with single or mostly double skin, mostly that of cow. Arrows couldn't penetrate it. Pilae didn't either.

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I would argue that the name hoplite came more from the complete equipment (i.e. hoplon) of the soldier, rather than the shield (which took the more specific title of "hoplon" later).

Argive shields were not solid bronze; they were a bronze sheet facing a wooden shield framework to which were attached all the bits on the inside. If they were made of solid bronze with simply a lining of skin on the inside, as you suggest, they would be way too heavy.

I think your comments are very generalized. I've never seen a single test conducted on the ability of missiles to penetrate different shield types, but I highly doubt that pila could not penetrate an Argive shield.

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Pilae worked on the wooden shields with the iron boss that Lusotannan, Iberians, Averni etc, but rarely on hopla. It would have to be a very strong, really near and applied to exactly the right angle to achieve armor piercing status.

EB's results are fine.

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Do you have any evidence for this? How do you know it would have to be very strong and thrown from a short distance? Again, hopla were wooden shields with a bronze facing, not pure bronze.

This for me is unrealistic. The phalanx was a very static formation and the shield didnt cover all the body. So if the pila cant penetrate shield, why they dont do damage on other parts?? ( pila can hit other parts of body like the heads not cover by shield, and a pilum in the head (also with helmet) is not a nice thing:dizzy2:

Let the stat guys handle this. Not like this hasn't been raised before.

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

Let the stat guys handle this. Not like this hasn't been raised before.

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Well, what's the reasoning of the stats guys for this?

DUDE JUST HANG ON. THIS THREAD IS AN HOUR OLD.

You people are ridiculous. We have freaking lives you know. Just give it more than a damned hour.

ARGH!!!!*(^&*)%$!

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

DUDE JUST HANG ON. THIS THREAD IS AN HOUR OLD.

You people are ridiculous. We have freaking lives you know. Just give it more than a damned hour.

ARGH!!!!*(^&*)%$!

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If it's been raised before, can you link to a previous discussion?

No. I can tell you to search for it if you want an answer sooner though. Don't you have something better to do? I know I do - actually making new things for this mod.

Are you using Polybian or Camillan Hastati?

If the latter, then the pila are not actually 'pila'.

The hoplon cant possibly be solid bronze. Working on a size of about 32 inches (80cm) across and about 1 cm thick, that makes a volume of about 5000 cc. (I am assuming the shield is flat and of equal thickness throughout. I know its not, but it makes the calculations easier...)
The density of bronze is about 8g/cc, so the shield would weigh in at about 40kg. I cant believe that they lugged that weight around, and thats just the shield...
If a pila struck even a solid bronze hoplon straight on, there should be a fair chance of it penetrating. If it was a glancing blow, then it would probably slide off.

Edit: which in itself could be a problem: a pila glancing upwards into the face will be unpleasant, and if it glances downwards, it could impale a leg or foot. Not lethal, but enough to put you out of the battle...

Shouldnt it be an aspis anyway?

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

No. I can tell you to search for it if you want an answer sooner though. Don't you have something better to do? I know I do - actually making new things for this mod.

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Haha, no. I'm currently killing some downtime at work, and internet access means that I sit and read forums.

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

I would argue that the name hoplite came more from the complete equipment (i.e. hoplon) of the soldier, rather than the shield (which took the more specific title of "hoplon" later).

Argive shields were not solid bronze; they were a bronze sheet facing a wooden shield framework to which were attached all the bits on the inside. If they were made of solid bronze with simply a lining of skin on the inside, as you suggest, they would be way too heavy.

I think your comments are very generalized. I've never seen a single test conducted on the ability of missiles to penetrate different shield types, but I highly doubt that pila could not penetrate an Argive shield.



Do you have any evidence for this? How do you know it would have to be very strong and thrown from a short distance? Again, hopla were wooden shields with a bronze facing, not pure bronze.

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hoplo in modern greek means firearm. Hoplo in the ancient times could also mean weapon, but that happened to correlation with the hoplon (shield we talk about). In fact, it could be argued that calling a "shield carrier" as hoplite meant in the beginning evolved to the same hoplite meaning a "soldier" in later times. I am not sure that this had happened by Hellenistic times, though. It probably happened later, as after the Roman conquest, Greek terms of arms usage became ambiguous as their usage was not tolerated/allowed.

There were many different types of "hopla" around. From lighter ones, to the ones I mentioned. I have seen firsthand a hoplon which was Very thick and did weigh a ton. But again, as you know these things were not mass produced, rather each hoplite had his own made just for him. I accept for the sake of arguement that some pilae could go through hopla, evem many hopla, but DEFFINITELY NOT ALL, or even most. Then of course the quality of the bronze which produced the hoplon would have to be taken into account. The round size and curvature of the hoplon wasn't there for aesthetic beauty. It was also a most practical way to produce a shield which could withstand most of the things thrown at it. Beware, I said most, not all. Ancient hoplites, especially those in Thermopylae despised archery and archers, as they couldn't really be hurt by arrows, especially when in phallanx style they interlocked their shields(Hopla). This is why the saying "we will fight them in the shadow" etc. A properly interlocked static phallanx, with secure flanks was basically imprevious to archery.

As I said before, that was true for most, not all weapons. Heavy spears/akontia/peltai could and did penetrate the hopla, especially the lighter/cheaper ones you mention. If a phallanx wasn't properly flanked those same peltasts could find its weak spot and pepper it with spears/slingshots an the Phallanx could do nothing but stand and die (Karthadastim used this method with balearic slingers against the Greeks of Sicily). But the hoplon I have seen could only be pierced by either a bullet or broken by a warhammer or the heavy swords Galatians invading Greece carried. Its round shape and outward curvature provides equal protection and all parts of it sharing the weight of impact (if constructed correctly with the right amounts of bronze, not lightened up as often happened). Under the conditions I just mentioned and some simple physics, pilae would have a most difficult time penetrating it. Even if penetrating hopla would have to be A MAIN REASON why they were designed.

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

Argive shields were not solid bronze; they were a bronze sheet facing a wooden shield framework to which were attached all the bits on the inside. If they were made of solid bronze with simply a lining of skin on the inside, as you suggest, they would be way too heavy.

I think your comments are very generalized. I've never seen a single test conducted on the ability of missiles to penetrate different shield types, but I highly doubt that pila could not penetrate an Argive shield.
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mind you that first volley are light pila - effectively standard, light javelins. They stand no chance against argive shield, esp from distance.

The second volley though, thrown at close range should penetrate shields.

but RTW is not made for 2 types of amunition. We can't just give one long range, light javelin and one short range, very heavy. We have to generalize, and in effect we have 2 long range, middle javs.

This is a problem also for heavy slingers, who should have both long range and short range slings for different types of amunition, but they can only have one, and in effect are extremely difficult to ballance against standard ones (heavy slingshot was devastating, but have short range. In RTW such a unit would be massacred by standard slingers)

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Originally Posted by Kugutsu

The hoplon cant possibly be solid bronze. Working on a size of about 32 inches (80cm) across and about 1 cm thick, that makes a volume of about 5000 cc. (I am assuming the shield is flat and of equal thickness throughout. I know its not, but it makes the calculations easier...)
The density of bronze is about 8g/cc, so the shield would weigh in at about 40kg. I cant believe that they lugged that weight around, and thats just the shield...
If a pila struck even a solid bronze hoplon straight on, there should be a fair chance of it penetrating. If it was a glancing blow, then it would probably slide off.
Shouldnt it be an aspis anyway?

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"Hoplon" means "tool," and so when talked about in the context of war, it means "tool of war," i.e. "armament," usually with a connotation of defensive equipment. It later took a more specific meaning of the large shield with a ~90cm diameter and an offset rim (at which point I couldn't tell you, though).

"Aspis" simply means shield in Greek, and it is sometimes used to specifically refer to the large shield with a ~90cm diameter and an offset rim later on.

Other names for this shield are "Argive shield" and "hoplite shield." I prefer "Argive shield" because it's unambiguous and specific.

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Originally Posted by O'ETAIPOS

mind you that first volley are light pila - effectively standard, light javelins. They stand no chance against argive shield, esp from distance.

The second volley though, thrown at close range should penetrate shields.

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But all the first volley had to do was stick into the shield so that it makes it too unwieldy for the bearer. A light pila could easily do that against an Argive shield.

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but RTW is not made for 2 types of amunition. We can't just give one long range, light javelin and one short range, very heavy. We have to generalize, and in effect we have 2 long range, middle javs.

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The impact still seems too minimal though. As Caesar Vastator said, even if it couldn't penetrate the shield, it could penetrate the equipment on other parts of the body (or hit an exposed area).

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This is a problem also for heavy slingers, who should have both long range and short range slings for different types of amunition, but they can only have one, and in effect are extremely difficult to ballance against standard ones (heavy slingshot was devastating, but have short range. In RTW such a unit would be massacred by standard slingers)

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Could something like that be done on the MTW2 engine?

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Originally Posted by F for Fragging

As the title says, start a custom battle, choose hastati as your own and hoplitai haploi for the other side. Let the hoplitai haploi attack you in phalanx formation, order hastati to fire at will. Allow the hastati to throw two volleys of pila. None of the hoplitai haploi will be killed by the thrown pila. Isn't this a bit strange?

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What would be strange to answer your question is for a unit, ANY unit to be facing Romans without some right tools to fight them with. Do you suppose those guys were there just to die? Or should all EB factions be nothing more than Romani fodder? I have played and enjoyed the Romani, IMMENSELY. I also like the fact that in EB, even if you are ROME, basically the biggest sword and shield war machine ever, you have to WORK for your conquests, not have it handed on you in a silver plater, and have the whole world running if you throw them some pilae. I mean face it guys. It all boils down to a simple question. Do you want WAR, or a walk in the park?

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Originally Posted by keravnos

There were many different types of "hopla" around. From lighter ones, to the ones I mentioned. I have seen firsthand a hoplon which was Very thick and did weigh a ton. But again, as you know these things were not mass produced, rather each hoplite had his own made just for him. I accept for the sake of arguement that some pilae could go through hopla, evem many hopla, but DEFFINITELY NOT ALL, or even most.

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The "heavy" Argive shields you mention are almost definitely parade shields. The weight of such full shields would have been prohibitive on the battlefield (even for hoplites used to carrying a full bronze panoply). The norm, at least according to the archaeological record, was for Argive shields to be coated in a fairly thin sheet of bronze.

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As I said before, that was true for most, not all weapons. Heavy spears/akontia/peltai could and did penetrate the hopla, especially the lighter/cheaper ones you mention.

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Peltai could penetrate the Argive shield? What?

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If a phallanx wasn't properly flanked those same peltasts could find its weak spot and pepper it with spears/slingshots an the Phallanx could do nothing but stand and die (Karthadastim used this method with balearic slingers against the Greeks of Sicily). But the hoplon I have seen could only be pierced by either a bullet or broken by a warhammer or the heavy swords Galatians invading Greece carried.

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Again, those that you've seen are probably parade shields. Shields that were substantially thick would have been way too heavy to carry into combat.

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Its round shape and outward curvature provides equal protection and all parts of it sharing the weight of impact (if constructed correctly with the right amounts of bronze, not lightened up as often happened). Under the conditions I just mentioned and some simple physics, pilae would have a most difficult time penetrating it. Even if penetrating hopla would have to be A MAIN REASON why they were designed.

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It seems, from most evidence, that the norm for Argive shields was the "lightened" form, so pila probably would have penetrated most.

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Originally Posted by keravnos

What would be strange to answer your question is for a unit, ANY unit to be facing Romans without some right tools to fight them with. Do you suppose those guys were there just to die? Or should all EB factions be nothing more than Romani fodder? I have played and enjoyed the Romani, IMMENSELY. I also like the fact that in EB, even if you are ROME, basically the biggest sword and shield war machine ever, you have to WORK for your conquests, not have it handed on you in a silver plater, and have the whole world running if you throw them some pilae. I mean face it guys. It all boils down to a simple question. Do you want WAR, or a walk in the park?

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How you want an army to play should have no bearing on its historical accuracy. Having no men die from two volleys of pila, even directly to the front of a hoplite phalanx, is historicall inaccurate.

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

But all the first volley had to do was stick into the shield so that it makes it too unwieldy for the bearer. A light pila could easily do that against an Argive shield.

The impact still seems too minimal though. As Caesar Vastator said, even if it couldn't penetrate the shield, it could penetrate the equipment on other parts of the body (or hit an exposed area).

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For the first one - no, light pilum wasn't better than jav thrown by standard hellenic skirmishers. It was the heavy one that was piercing shields and men.

When heavy pilum pierced shield it went in around 90 cm (lenght of iron part) - and this was proven by experiments against scuttum replicas. This was usually enough to kill the man behind shield. This was the main difference between light and heavy pilum.

for the second - yes, it could, but chance was rather small. Some minimal increase in attack may be considered but it have to be very carefully balanced, to prevent turning romans into RPG infantry :beam:

The first poster said 'Hastati'. Camillan Hastati would have no special effect (wouldn't they throw hastae rather than pila - pointless anecdote: it depresses me that the main UK textbook for Latin says that the first centurion is a primus pilus - "meaning 'First javelin'". Seriously, you'd think they could tell the. Judging by the initial poster's tone, I'm not sure.

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Having no men die from two volleys of pila, even directly to the front of a hoplite phalanx, is historicall inaccurate.

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How many men do the phalangites represent? Are the Hastati firing at long range (probably yes)? What size is Fragging playing on?

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Originally Posted by O'ETAIPOS

For the first one - no, light pilum wasn't better than jav thrown by standard hellenic skirmishers. It was the heavy one that was piercing shields and men.

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The first was designed to stick into shields, even if it wasn't meant to penetrate through to the carrier. I have no doubt that it would have been able to penetrate through part of the shield and render it unusable, as it was designed to do. The light pilum would also still be able to penetrate other elements of armour on the hoplite.

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When heavy pilum pierced shield it went in around 90 cm (lenght of iron part) - and this was proven by experiments against scuttum replicas. This was usually enough to kill the man behind shield. This was the main difference between light and heavy pilum.

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I wouldn't trust the penetration figures for a scutum when discussing Argive shields; scuta weren't faced with bronze, after all.

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for the second - yes, it could, but chance was rather small. Some minimal increase in attack may be considered but it have to be very carefully balanced, to prevent turning romans into RPG infantry :beam:

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But it's clearly not realistic to have two volleys of pila result in no casualties, and isn't the goal of EB to provide historical accuracy?

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

Having no men die from two volleys of pila, even directly to the front of a hoplite phalanx, is historicall inaccurate.

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Historically inaccurate? We can talk reconstruction, sure, but I haven't seen the "historical" argument yet...

That said, I agree that hoplitai haploi shouldn't be impervious to the pila, though I suspect (and someone who knows game mechanics better than I should confirm or deny this) the pila lower morale and make the battle end more quickly.

You could test this by doing that custom battle twice, once with the legionaries firing pila before impact, once with them waiting until impact to begin sword combat. See if the battle lasts longer the second time. I'd wager it does.

Having nothing to do with knowledge of the thickness of shields or the historical kill ratios of hastati or whatever - what is the mod supposed to do with shields that are pierced by spears? Does that mean the guy has to die? Obviously we can't do anything with the hardcode of the game and make the guy actually lose his shield. That part of the argument (not saying the whole argument, because I have no detailed knowledge of the stats/centimeters/etc.) can't be pressed much further - if the unit/stat guys have it where those guys die or not, saying either result is not historical or not accurate or not realistic or whatever is really blaming the RTW engine, not EB.

Oh yeah, sure it is not exactly accurate, but then again is a phalanx made up of 240 men at most quite... historical accurate? The few kills involved would be dwarfed by the scale adjustments needed...

Apart from that: may I take it that the hoplon shield was coated with layer of bronze? If so, then there's just one more question to answer: could contemporary arrows penetrate such shields?

If not then you may conclude that the pila wouldn't have hurt those guys very much: a pilum would need far more kinetic energy to penetrate the shield than an arrow would - and a skilled archer can 'provide' his arrows with much more kinetic energy per mass than any javelin throwing guy is able to 'provide' for his javelins.

You'd have much more succes 'striking' those guys at their helmets...

The reason why javelins and pila aren't killing many hoplitai haploi is because of the Vanilla phalanx thing. In 0.81 Hoplitai Haploi will fight in our Classical Hoplite formation and have had the shield rating reduced by 1, making them much more, although still not very, vulnerable to missiles. I'll try and dig up the thread in our internal forum that has some test results for missiles vs. various hoplites and post them.