Translated, what does this mean?
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Translated, what does this mean?
It means the attack values increase when the unit attacked is armoured, giving a bonus against armoured troops. If it's applied to missiles, then the missile will have greater effectiveness against armour in similar vein. Hence vanilla archers won't do much damage to say halbardiers, but longbows will. Crossbows and arbalests are also armour-piercing.
For melee units it's generally axes and polearms that have AP bonuses.
There is a more detailed breakdown of the actual formulas in Frogbeastegg's wonderful guide (follow links from the MTW Guides section), but generally the more the armour, the better the AP bonus!
I've been looking through the armour piercing specifics recently, so I thought I may as well post them while they're fresh in my mind.
This only applies to melee.
A unit that is described as being 'Effective against armour' will receive a bonus to their attack when fighting an armoured opponent: the more armour an apponent has, the bigger the bonus. If you want to know specifically what the bonus is, there are simple formulae for working it out.
Attack bonus against an unmounted opponent = (opponent's armour level - 1) / 2
Attack bonus against a mounted opponent = (opponent's armour level - 2) / 2
It's also important to note that shields don't factor into this.
To properly calculate everything yourself and see exactly how much of a difference it's really making, you'll have to know the basic attributes each unit has in the first place. If you are new to MTW then this will take time. As mascen rufus said, the MTW Total Unit Guide by Frogbeastegg is very helpful in getting to know the stats behind units. Checking the F1 screen during the battle phase is also a good way to learn about stats, but it's easier to get confused this way because of all the potential things influencing these stats: unit valour, weapon/armour upgrades, shield bonuses, General command bonuses, General virtues/vices, terrain bonuses/penalties, provincial building bonuses, etc.
The surest way to be clear about the attributes of a unit (especially shield bonuses and things like that) is to go through the actual stats file used in the game. In your MTW folder it'll be called CRUSADERS_UNIT_PROD11.TXT. You'll need a bit of patience for that though.
Here are some examples of attack bonuses gained and how much a difference it really makes.
Example 1: Militia Sergeants (MS for short) versus Chivalric Men At Arms (CMAA). Both have 0 valour, no upgrades.
Bonus = (Armour - 1)/2
CMAA have an armour level of 4. They also have a shield which adds 1 to their armour (which is why their armour will appear as 5 in the F1 screen), but as I said earlier, this doesn't factor into the bonus.
So, Bonus = (4 - 1)/2
Bonus = 3/2
Bonus = 1.5
Bonus = 1
As far as I know half points aren't counted, so MS will gain an attack bonus of 1 when facing CMAA. MS have a base attack of 2, so when fighting CMAA their attack will be 3. So it's a bonus of 50% - not that much, but better than nothing.
Example 2: Militia Sergeants versus Chivalric Knights (CK). Again, both valour 0, no upgrades (CK have +3 armour to begin with, as you need an Armourer's Guild to train these knights).
Bonus (against a mounted opponent this time) = (Armour - 2)/2
CK have an armour level of 10. 0.5 from their shield.
Bonus = (10 - 2)/2
Bonus = 8/2
Bonus = 4
So Militia Sergeants will gain a bonus of 4 against Chivalric Knights, giving them a total attack of 6 instead of their normal 2.
So the armour piercing bonus does make a considerable difference against very heavily armoured opponents.
Here is one last example. An optimised polearm unit with all the bonuses against the same CK.
Billmen (BM) vesus Chivaric Knights.
The BM have been trained in Mercia giving them a valour bonus, and another point of valour is gained from the Master Spearmaker, giving the BM a starting valour of 2. The CK are standard.
The BM gain the same attack bonus of 4 as the MS do as it's the same opponent. BM have a base attack of 2, the same as MS, but BM are a proper polearm unit and therefore have an additional bonus of 3 to their attack against cavalry (Halberdiers have this bonus also). So that's 2 + 4 + 3, and their starting valour of 2 gives them an additional 2 to their attack, giving them a total attack of 11 against Chivalric Knights! An attack of 11 is more than double the attack of the Knights themselves, which is 5. Knights have a big charge bonus though, so they're still very powerful during that phase, but once the charge is over they only have an attack value of 5 (and maybe another +1 because of a special cavalry versus infantry bonus) compared to the Billmen's 11, which shows just how powerful they can be.
Hope this wasn't too much to digest.
That was very interesting, as many posts here.
I have two questions though
1/ When we consider the stats of a unit. What does the armor do? does it stacks wis the defence stat, or does it give some "saving throw" to a man stricken to death, like "if I'm dead and I have a 4 armour bonus I have 50% of staying alive"?
2/ speaking of this, clearly a weapon upgrade gives a +1 attack. But what does give an armor upgrade? +1 defence due to armor, or +1 defense AND +1 armor (them stacking, or giving at the same time a better defence stat and a better chance of avoiding death while effectively hit)
And two very simple and technical questions (I hope this is not to bad a behavior...):
1/ what does the F1 key do? Do we have acces to actual figures, instead of "good attack", "poor defense" and the like?
2/ Is it possible to build battles choosing the units to train oneself? I read stuff about people making some very precise testing on some very specific units?
Thanks! :shame:
Armour is a separate stat to defence. Armour is all about protecting against a successful hit from an opponent's weapon or missile, wheras defense is all about evading the hit in the first place IIRC. Armour has better protection against missiles, though units that are armoured will tire more quickly in the desert.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caerfanan
Armour upgrades (Armourer) give +1 armour. Weapon upgrades (Metalsmith) give +1 attack. Neither give valour bonuses at master level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caerfanan
It shows the unit stats for the units on the battlefield. You will see the actual stats, including morale, of those units while they are in battle. This may change completely once you get back to the campaign map.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caerfanan
Custom battles are the way to do that. :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Caerfanan
I guess that is what it is supposed to represent, but in the melee-combat calculation defence and armour are added up to the total defence value, which the determines the odds of a strike being successful or not. If a strike is successful, the target dies (unless he happens to have multiple hitpoints, but most soldiers have only one). However, like you say, only armour protects against missiles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cambyses II
Armour protects vs missiles. Defence vs melee. They do not add together, though 'armour bonuses' are added to both armour and defence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludens
If this is correct how exactly would the armour piercing bonus work? I found match-ups like the BM-CK described by libra683 to be quite in favour of the armour piercing unit, nonwithstanding a possible high defense rating of the -in this case- mounted victim. It seems like the units' defense rating doesn't really count any more once they wear heavy armour and are attacked by an armour piercing unit.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grand Inquisitor
Ludens is correct, every point of armour gives a +1 defence bonus. This is the effect of armour. Every unit has a standard 1 point of base armour to start with, so I am not sure when the bonus vs armoured troops come into effect. All this bonus does is give the attacker +1 attack when he encounters "armoured" troops. The "missiles good vs armour" is also a bonus vs an armoured opponent, though, again, I'm not sure when an opponent is considered armoured? I would guess 2, as that is the result of the first level armour upgrade to a unit that starts with the base level 1 armour (unarmoured).Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grand Inquisitor
libra683 already provided the formula for calculating the AP bonus. You can convert that into a simple table
For infantry:
Armour/AP bonus
1-2/0
3-4/+1
5-6/+2
etc
For cavalry it is:
2-3/0
4-5/+1
6-7/+2
8-9/+3
etc
There is no cavalry with armour 1 as both horse and soldier has minimum armour 1 and both values are added together.
In general most armoured infantry has a base armour value of 3 or 4 so they belong in the +1 catagory. Only against the real heavy types of infantry as dismounted chivalric knights, Halberdiers or gothic sergeants will you get a +2 attack.
A units base defense value is based on the armour, troop quality, and weapon and all these have been added together in a spreadsheet and then exported into the crusader_unit_prod file.
The game engine then adds any defense/armour from a shield (either 1 or 2) to provide the defense/armour value you see when checking out unit stats in F1. Pavs are special as they provide +3 armour but nothing for defense. Some cavalry only receive a +0.5 to armour value.
Then of course comes all upgrades and valor that adds more.
AP for missile weapons works in a different way and depends on weapon too. It simply reduces the effect that armour has against missiles. Longbows have an AP multiplier of 0.5, crossbows 0.4 and arbalesters 0.3. We dont know the exact formulas for it, but the smaller the multiplier the better it is. I think Yuuki did some testing on how much armour reduced missile fire... maybe it was something like a doubling of armour cut it down by 50% but Im not sure.
So when doing battle all you really are interested in knowing (and that info is in F1) is the attack and defense values as that tells you how powerful the unit is in melee. The armour value tells you how well protected it is versus missile fire.
CBR
Thanks guys, a lot to look at, and some ideas for battle alignment of the troops when readying for attack or defense.
Whoa guys!!!
That's bloody great. Thank you very much for all those very interesting explanations!!!
:shame: :shame: :shame:
I've always supposed that multiplier for projectile units stands for percentage of armour not penetrated by the hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by CBR
Reading the projectile stats file, my own idea is that a shot kills if :
accuracy x lethality x power > Armour mod x armour.
And that accuracy increases with unit valour.
So, for example, arquebusiers have a multiplier (0.015) that negates 85% armour of the target.
Except the shield; ex. Almohad Urban Militia, armour 4, shield 1, are hit by Spanish
Javelinmen (armour mod 0.3 ) as they were a unit with 1.2 of armour (70% of 4=2.8).
With the above formula
Accuracy 0.15 x Lethality 2 x Power 2 = 0.6
0.6 means that one Javelinman needs to hit two times an Almohad militiaman to kill him
or that two Javelinmen hit the same militiaman.
Anyway, matter is so uncertain and everyone who could give more help is welcome.
Greetings
Each point of armour bonus from an armoury adds to both defence and armour, but the armour stat is separate from the defence stat. They do not add.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cambyses II
For example, Billmen have defence 4, armour 3. With a level 1 armourer, they have a defence 5, armour 4. Against melee opponents their attack factor is only compared against the defence stat (5 when armoured) not defence + armour (which would be 9 when armoured).
If I recall correctly, armour piercing halves any defence (including bonuses from armoury and possibly valour(not sure on this)) beyond 2. Armour Piercing does not reduce the value of shields.
So a Siculo-Norman Knight (in BKB's Supermod) has a defence of 4 and a large shield (+2), total 6. Against an armour-piercing attack the defence of 4 is reduced to 3, the shield is unaffected for a total defence of 5.
Armour piercing has no effect on missile attacks beyond the fact that an arbalest bolt has better penetration than a short bow arrow. The effectiveness of missiles is determined by the projectile type and valour of the archer.
Sorry I was a bit vague there. :embarassed: I understand that armour and defence are different stats. I've messed about with the unit prod file enough to know that. I was of course referring to the armour upgrades and not the base armour for the unit.
I also believe that the armour of the horse and the shield is not taken into account for armour piercing melee attacks. The attack bonus is the (target's armour - 1) / 2. So the more armour the greater the attack bonus. e.g. two different units (shield and horse armour removed first)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cambyses II
(8 - 1) / 2 = +3.5 attack bonus
(2 - 1) / 2 = +0.5 attack bonus
The more armour the more attack bonus for the AP attacker. I'm not sure how the fractions are dealt with, if at all. I believe they may be rounded up or down.
I don't know where you got that information from but as far as I'm aware that's not true! Having a weapon that is 'armour piercing' only gives a measured bonus to the attack value; it does not directly reduce the opponent's defence.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grand Inquisitor
For anyone who has any doubts, I just thought I'd share the actual post that I got my information from. This is from the Numerology thread over at the official MTW forum (http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm5), and the information is from a MTW developer, a programmer, as far as I know.
Noticed a question about AP and realized I hadn't posted a dev comment on it.
/START
longjohn2
Programmer
Group: CA
Posts: 263
Joined: Nov. 2000
UK Posted: Sep. 18 2002,19:49
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Puzz is correct, theoretically units should get a bonus of +1 against units of foot of 4 armour, and against horse units of 5 armour. Sadly I found a bug today, so that you will only start getting bonuses against foot units of 5 armour. For calculating armour piercing bonuses, shields don't count, but horse armour does (as it isn't counted separately ). I've changed this for the patch, so that bonuses will start against foot with 3 armour ( chainmail ) or cavalry with 4 armour ( some of cavalry's armour factor is due to the horse which is soft and squishy).
I reduced the effectiveness of the armour piercing bonus late in the project, as I noticed that all the units Activision complained about as being too powerful had axes or halbards, but in retrospect that was a bad move.
Armour piercing works differently with missiles. Each missile type has an armour penetration rating. The target's armour is multiplied by this, before deciding whether a kill is scored. The factor for bows is 1, and for longbows it's 0.5, so when hit by a longbow, units count half as much armour as they actually have ( can't remember if this includes shields too ). These stats will be in separate file in the patch.
/END
So, the AP forumula is (armor - 1)/2 for foot, and (armor - 2)/2 for horse. And, shields don't count when making this calculation.
note: the patch he's referring to is the 1.1 patch for MTW
That's it.
If I were a teenager I would call this post awesome. In fact I think I will.Quote:
Originally Posted by libra683
Awesome post, libra683 :thumbsup: