Balancing the budget - how do you guys do it?

Long post here - be warned!

At risk of sounding like an accountant, does anyone have any insights on how to balance your budget and not run out of money, particularly in the early game? The early game is usually where the "land grab" happens, especially if you have many tempting rebel provinces bordering yours. I thought rather than just asking the question, I'd share my own situation and then ask for opinions on how to best manage this.

I'm playing as the Turks right now and after (foolishly) expanding as quickly as possible to the north, east and south I've now run out of money. The biggest drain on my finances is (not surprisingly) army upkeep - it makes up 51% of my expenses. I've now gotten to the point where I'm maintaining a huge army because I've just taken Constantinople and Nicaea from the Byzantines (who have been eliminated as their Emperor was slain without heirs and their remaining cities of Thessalonica and Corinth have gone rebel, which provide opportunities if I had the money). As its taking a while to convert these cities to my religion (I'm trying to roleplay as the chivalrous Sultan Jalal and so I do not sack cities for cash so they usually have high population when I take them) I have to maintain full armies in these cities, given that I've had crusaders now starting to come through my lands (a crusade has been called on Antioch and they're all coming through the Bosphorus). Where possible all my interior cities are militia-only, and only up to the free upkeep limit, and my castles (Mosul, Caesarea, Tbilisi, Acre, Gaza, Rhodes and Nicosia) are all garrisoned by a single unit (usually Turkish archers or javelinmen).

The bulk of my "ranging armies" used to be Sipahis until I worked out that they cost nearly 3 florins a man so all those Sipahis got the flick and I've replaced them with Turkish HA, which are cheaper at 2.5 florins a man. My infantry has been downgraded from Saracen Militia to Spear Militia (again cheaper at 1.1 florins/man compared to 1.4 florins/man - I know these are fractions but every bit counts). I thought the Azabs would be a cheap source of manpower, but they're bloody expensive (2.1 florins/man) and not even as good as Spear Militia! I got rid of them too. Consequently my military performance has suffered somewhat...

All up I estimate (I got tired of counting manual army stacks) that my army costs me about 20,000 florins, give or take a couple thousand.

I ended up using a calculator and working out unit costs/man/type of unit, and I discovered that my navy is pretty bloody expensive - I wanted to follow British Empire doctrine of having twice as many ships as the next two navies combined, but doing so is massively expensive - each full stack of dhows (740 men) costs me 3000 florins, and a half-stack (10 dhows of 390 men total) costs me 1500. I think I have one full stack and about five or six half-stacks, so I'm estimating the total cost to be about 10,000 florins just for naval fleets (+ or - a couple of thousand). I'm starting to think that navies are overrated.

Then I've got my Eastern Med "patrol line" (basically a line of single dhows equally spaced throughout the Eastern Med to remove the fog and deter pirates, as well as give me early warning of perfidious Egyptian attacks) which costs about 1000, and my Black Sea "patrol line" costs a bit less. Then you add the single dhows that I have near rival ports as surveillance (I have this for the Egyptian ports in the eastern Med as well as Hungarian and Polish ports in the Black Sea and some (not all) Venetian and Sicilian ports around the central Med) as well as single dhows in my harbours for quick transport of troops if required - I reckon I'm paying about 4-5K for that all up.

So let's say my navy costs me 16,000 florins approx. I haven't even taken into account the mix of stacks I have which are part-dhow and part-war galley (war galleys cost 200 for 56 men vs 150 for 37 for dhows), so there could be quite a bit of upside to that number.

Given that my existing income is about 60,000 florins, and 35,000 florins is used up by my military, and another 10,000 goes to wages (I'd give the generals pay cuts but I can't) and another 5,000 to corruption, that leaves me with 10,000 to a ) recruit new troops when needed and b ) to engage in construction of value added buildings to either improve my military capability or help me earn more money. In many cases I've had to halt construction in certain cities as I just haven't got the money (and unlike RL I can't run constant budget deficits). My taxes are all at high (again due to roleplaying a benign Islamic empire, I don't want them at very high). Also, as you queue up buildings I think you still pay the charge for those buildings the year you queue them up, not the year you build them, like in RTW.

I've been trying to get my trade figures up, but given that most of the Catholic world is at war with me because of that bloody Crusade the chances of trading with them are pretty much slim to none. I'm also at war with Egypt (they attacked me) so no trade with them either. I remember raking it in around the Levant and Baghdad area with my merchants when I was playing as Denmark, but as the Turks I'm not making anywhere near as much with the same level of merchants (must be a distance to capital thing).

I don't want to continually put off construction of key buildings which will assist development of my empire. So the only options I can see ahead of me are:

1 - brutally reduce troop levels to a manageable level. Where necessary give up cities which cannot be maintained
2 - cut down my navy, give up the "patrol lines", eliminate at least a couple of the half-stacks which will probably save me about 12,000 florins
3 - "shrink" my empire - give up my Byzantine possessions as well as the ones north of and in the Caucasus Mountains (Sarkel, Tbilisi, Yerevan)

I can't see any way by which I can grow my topline, so it's really only reducing expenses which will help me. I don't remember it being this hard to manage money in RTW - there was that initial stage where you had to live like a pauper, but after a while, as you scaled your empire up, you started printing money.

Any advice on how you guys balance your budget and manage your territorial expansion with your fiscal constraints would be much appreciated.

My advice would be to concantrate on getting religious building up in your new Holdings. Convert all your northen possessions into castles, saves you a lot on garrissions, and gives you a very secure northen front. Send your merchants furthar a-feild too, the textiles in italy are worth a small fortune, and the amber up near kiev and stochnholm is worth a lot too.

Cut some of the survalliance ships and half stacks out, genrally you can level the stacks you do have up when the enemy attackas and get a double power navy via expiriance. Also, convert anywhere without a port to a castle as it's cheaper to jkee, and thing about moving your capital nearer the Byzantine possessions for a bit to cut unrest a littile.

Check your generals traits too to see if they have any bad traits that cause squalour or unrest or negetive law penalties. Barracks, Walls, and Town Hall all help increase public order.

Work from their. Lastly, it may take a bit, but if you hang on for 10 turns or so with plenty or presists converting, you should be able to expand some more ater that.

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1 - brutally reduce troop levels to a manageable level. Where necessary give up cities which cannot be maintained

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Muster up a stack and try to conquer something with it. This is the universal cure for a bad economy. Success will get you money, defeat less upkeep.

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2 - cut down my navy, give up the "patrol lines", eliminate at least a couple of the half-stacks which will probably save me about 12,000 florins

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Definitely. You have waaaaaaaay more navy than I have ever come close to building. One fleet of 5 or 6 ships for every major chunk of sea is about all I ever use.

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3 - "shrink" my empire - give up my Byzantine possessions as well as the ones north of and in the Caucasus Mountains (Sarkel, Tbilisi, Yerevan)

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Never! Well, almost never. Growth is ultimately what makes your economy hum. When you get provinces inside your border, you can install a minimal garrison and generate a lot of net cash. Avoid trying to take provinces that cost more to garrison than they are worth.

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Originally Posted by Carl

My advice would be to concantrate on getting religious building up in your new Holdings. Convert all your northen possessions into castles, saves you a lot on garrissions, and gives you a very secure northen front. Send your merchants furthar a-feild too, the textiles in italy are worth a small fortune, and the amber up near kiev and stochnholm is worth a lot too.

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I was thinking of shipping my merchants further afield, to the Italian peninsula and the area around Genoa. Problem is I don't have any ships to spare! :D

As for changing my northern possessions to castles, how will that reduce my upkeep? Aren't cities the only ones that get free garrison units?

First, cut the navy. It's massive expense for little payoff. Keep one moderately powerful fleet to ward off would-be blockaders.

Second, sack cities. Little destruction, less death, and lots of profit.

Third, the Turkish home cities are not the most lucrative around. Yerevan and the other landlocked Middle Eastern cities just aren't worth the effort IMO. Grab Antioch, Istanbul, Jerusalem, Thessalonica, and the Eqyptian moneymakers Cairo and Alexandria.

And, did you say that you have a net income of 10,000? I'd have killed for that kind of wealth in my Byzantine campaign. I hobbled through constant war with Europe and Turkey on 2500 gold a turn for many generations. Selling off vital infrastructure for that one extra Vard... And we won't even get into the pecuniary holocaust that occured during the Black Death.

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As for changing my northern possessions to castles, how will that reduce my upkeep? Aren't cities the only ones that get free garrison units?

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Yes, but having them as castles with say a unit of peasants in them is probably cheaper than what your needing to keep the unrest down ATM< if i'm reading you right. Second, if absolutly necessery, yo can somtimes get away with leaving a castle with nobody in it, as long as it dosen't go red your fine and a unit of peseants only takes 1 turn to build and is as cheap as dirt. You can always convert them back later once you can handle the agrrission required.


@Zurkov: 2 points about your suggesstions: 1. he dosen't have ANY troops to spare to go conquoring, they are all tied down preventing cities going rebel, and he dosen't want to do anything but occupy so as to let him get chiviallry from it.

I'd try a few other options which will allow you to reduce troop numbers.

Forts at chokepoints particularly as Turks get asia minor and block european access allows time for your cavalry force to respond.

Forget your navy

get those highways up

all cavalry stack to fight opportunistic rebels or invaders with a movement enhanced general, which will cover more area

rebel or papal provinces around your stable borders.

moove your capital to most advantageous spot for $.

getting allies is more problematical and I havn't had much success though gifting a province or two helps heaps in good relations.

Assassins, knock a few troublesome places/factions out with these.


I'd like to know your reputation status and how you plan to keep it up, because I playing similar but cahtolic role as Venice , I only ransom/release and only sack moslems but still have despicable reputation mid game.

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Originally Posted by General Zhukov

And, did you say that you have a net income of 10,000? I'd have killed for that kind of wealth in my Byzantine campaign. I hobbled through constant war with Europe and Turkey on 2500 gold a turn for many generations. Selling off vital infrastructure for that one extra Vard... And we won't even get into the pecuniary holocaust that occured during the Black Death.

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No...I have a net income close to zero, and sometimes I cannot complete construction requests as I run out of money. And the only reason it's zero now (instead of negative) is because I teched-down my army - I got rid of my Sipahis and replaced them with Turkish HAs (the most basic one), got rid of my Saracen militia and replaced them with vanilla spear militia, etc. I disbanded all my Hashashin and other fancy troops, basically.

My revenues are 60,000 approx. and my expenses (excluding new construction or new recruitment) are about 50,000 (35,000 army upkeep, 5,000 corruption and 10,000 wages). So all I have left for recruitment and construction is about 10,000, which is always used up (unless I construct nothing and hire no new troops). I've put in a hiring freeze on new troops, but my normal construction costs (assuming I'm making something each turn) is about 15,000, so if you do the match I'm always 5,000 short each turn, and that means some cities go with their production queues (though it's not much of a queue, queuing just one building) unfulfilled.

I was reading some posts here where people were talking about raking it in to the tune of 15,000 florins a turn and I couldn't work out how on earth they did that!

I think Dismal has the right idea here. If at all possible you should muster up some troops and go conquer something. Like him, I too have had great success with little more than a token navy. Typically you won't even need more than 4 or 5 units in any given fleet, and only enough fleets to make sure they cover your ports from pirate attacks. I'm well past turn 100 in an English campaign, and doubt I have more than 25 naval units to my name even though I have substantial holdings bordering at least 3 different bodies of water. I can't imagine the situation would be much different anywhere else. Basically, have enough to fight off pirates w/ some confidence, and it should be good enough to tangle with blockading enemy forces too. This is especially helped b/c they can travel such long distances, so one fleet (again, usually less than half a stack for me) can effectively cover quite an expansive area.

As for Carl's suggestion to convert cities to castles, I'm not wild about it. I'd rather say you should hang onto them as cities, since that's where the real money is to be made. Do everything in your power to stabilize them religiously, and especially invest in some imams and big churches in those provinces, as much as you can possibly squeeze out of your limited funds (not so limited once you cut back your navy a lot, heh). Once you get the religious unrest under control, those cities should be a huge factor in alleviating your financial woes.

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As for Carl's suggestion to convert cities to castles, I'm not wild about it. I'd rather say you should hang onto them as cities, since that's where the real money is to be made. Do everything in your power to stabilize them religiously, and especially invest in some imams and big churches in those provinces, as much as you can possibly squeeze out of your limited funds (not so limited once you cut back your navy a lot, heh). Once you get the religious unrest under control, those cities should be a huge factor in alleviating your financial woes.

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I meant it more as a short term stop-gap measure. As soon as the Unrest is down enough that you can swap them back to cities, then do so. But the cost of a unit of peasants and the swapping is probably less than 10-20 turns of upkeep on big city garrisons, plus with such a small Garrison, they might actually turn a profit as castles. Just don't upgrade them to Citadels, (or you can't convert back).

At the beginning of the game, I try to make dirt roads and the first two level farms as quick as possible, unless I am in a coastal region, in which I make the dirt roads, ground clearance and then docks. I offset the cost of these by setting high taxes and sacking a few rebel settlements. After those buildings are built, I focus on a balance of public order, growth and finances. That normally involves farms, town halls, militia barracks and churches. The ideal situation from money making is to start out as one of the Italian Factions (Venice, Sicily and I think Genoa). Starting as a small faction is good because it is easy to maintain and the player can focus on the economy, especially because the Italian early game requires no castles.

I've been holding off on population-increasing improvements (ground clearance, farms etc) because of the major squalor problems I had in RTW. Is squalor still as big an issue in this game? I couldn't find a clear consensus on the threads that I searched.

trade is the key...I'm rolling in cash in my current campaign, it's vital to get coastal cities and get ports and trade rights agreements going.

In my current campaign with roughly 20 provinces under my control, I pull in about 17.5k fl from taxes...and I pull in about 17k fl from trade.

Secure trade rights early, capture some coastline and get ports up and running pronto.
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As for squalor, i think squalor still happens as it did in RTW...but in M2TW you have a lot more opportunities to combat it. A lot of the high end buildings can give you good squalor reducing benefits. If you check out the FAQ stickied in this forum at the top, it talks about squalor and how to combat it and how it's a good deal easier than in RTW.

I notice people keep mentioning roads as useful economically. For dirt roads in particular, I almost never (i.e. can't remember even one time) see any projected economic gain listed on the settlement details screen when I queue them up to be built. Do dirt roads do something I'm not aware of (maybe some weird indirect effect to trade that for some inexplicable reason isn't reported on the details sheet), or are people misrepresenting them simply because the info sheet for the dirt road claims that it has economic benefits?

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Originally Posted by Foz

I notice people keep mentioning roads as useful economically. For dirt roads in particular, I almost never (i.e. can't remember even one time) see any projected economic gain listed on the settlement details screen when I queue them up to be built. Do dirt roads do something I'm not aware of (maybe some weird indirect effect to trade that for some inexplicable reason isn't reported on the details sheet), or are people misrepresenting them simply because the info sheet for the dirt road claims that it has economic benefits?

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I don't think dirt roads have a direct $ benefit , but indirectly the ability to moove troops more quickly means less standing armies of course.

Highways on the otherhand usually show $ benefit when proposed in the settlement detail browser.

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Originally Posted by Memnoch

I've been holding off on population-increasing improvements (ground clearance, farms etc) because of the major squalor problems I had in RTW. Is squalor still as big an issue in this game? I couldn't find a clear consensus on the threads that I searched.

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I don't think squalor is a big issue in MTW2. IN general IMHO the equation has been reversed from rtw, that is you now want more populatioan growth as that equals more people paying taxes. Squalor of course needs to be combatted but its not the imperative it was in RTW(I used to exterminate regularly in try to control populations but never have I needed to do this in mtw2).

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Originally Posted by grapedog

trade is the key...I'm rolling in cash in my current campaign, it's vital to get coastal cities and get ports and trade rights agreements going.

In my current campaign with roughly 20 provinces under my control, I pull in about 17.5k fl from taxes...and I pull in about 17k fl from trade.

Secure trade rights early, capture some coastline and get ports up and running pronto.
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As for squalor, i think squalor still happens as it did in RTW...but in M2TW you have a lot more opportunities to combat it. A lot of the high end buildings can give you good squalor reducing benefits. If you check out the FAQ stickied in this forum at the top, it talks about squalor and how to combat it and how it's a good deal easier than in RTW.

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I had some success with this as the Danes, but as the Turks I feel like I'm at war against the world - the entire Catholic world (bar Spain, who is allied with the Moors, and England, who I have trade rights with) is at war with me because the Pope called a crusade on Antioch. So Hungary, Poland, Venice, Portugal, the Papal States, Sicily, France and the HRE, which I had trade rights with, have all broken them off as they have joined this bloody crusade. And even my Muslim neighbour Egypt is also at war with me (so much for solidarity!).

So the only countries that I have trade rights with are the Moors and Spain - my diplomat is still making his way to England, Scotland and Russia.

Though to be fair I joined a Moor jihad against Portugal to take Lisbon, so they're probably not too impressed with me...

Well, as the turks u really shouldnt have too much trouble with econ since u can get all of those nice money cities in the levant early on and develop them. As for you, destroy your navy it is overrated. Let anyone invade you, just destroy any troops they put on your lands and blockades rarely last for more than 5 turns. For your generals, be extremely picky about who is in your family. Do not accept any man of the hour, adoption, or marriage unless the general has some good traits. Imedietely send a general to suicide as soon as their bad traits become too bad and overtakes your good traits. The brothel line of buildings are really bad at giving awful traits. Finally, take a audit of all of your forces. Disband anything that is not essential to prevent revolting and convert all mercs to normal troops as fast as possible

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Originally Posted by Razor1952

I don't think dirt roads have a direct $ benefit , but indirectly the ability to moove troops more quickly means less standing armies of course.

Highways on the otherhand usually show $ benefit when proposed in the settlement detail browser.

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I'm glad I'm not the only person that's noticed this. I'm not disputing the usefulness of dirt roads: certainly they're a cornerstone of good infrastructure, and a very good buy at 400/1 turn. What I am disputing, however, is their placement so early in build order (many people mention them first thing). The troop movement bonus is nice, but economics and growth should be prioritized most highly in the early game. I think a more reasonable build order puts port if available and at least one farm level before the dirt roads. Farms give a boost of ~50 florins income usually, not to mention they also increase growth which helps you tech up and gives more tax income too. Ports on the other hand open up sea trade, which in practice gives you far more income than the settlement details scroll says it will give you - for instance I just had 25 florins predicted, but the new sea trade made about 125 for an actual boost of 150 from building the port. I would also suggest any town hall series building go before dirt roads, as the growth they give will quickly translate into increased profits b/c of more taxable subjects. So while I acknowledge the usefulness of speedy transport for troops, I think far too much emphasis has been placed on dirt roads which should probably be waiting in line behind several other more important buildings.

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Originally Posted by Razor1952

I don't think squalor is a big issue in MTW2. IN general IMHO the equation has been reversed from rtw, that is you now want more populatioan growth as that equals more people paying taxes. Squalor of course needs to be combatted but its not the imperative it was in RTW(I used to exterminate regularly in try to control populations but never have I needed to do this in mtw2).

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I heartily agree! In general now the growth of your settlements stalls before it would cause intolerable amounts of squalor (not to mention squalor is capped at 80%, very reasonable)... so it's very much in your best interest to build farms. In fact land clearance is only 600 fl, which the farm typically pays back in only 12 turns (not counting increased income from more taxable peons). That's good turnaround time in this game, and probably only beaten by the port/sea trade series.

As for holdings that are ridiculous distances away from your capital... they still pose big public order problems, but can be combatted with sacking or extermination in most cases, giving you time to build up the proper order-keeping infrastructure. Generally anyone with okay management skills will easily be able to keep order in settlements acquired from natural expansion, which is a welcome development to be sure. In that respect religious unrest is probably toughest to combat in new holdings, and if you're expanding into the territory of another religion, it's recommended you send priests/imams ahead to help convert.

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Originally Posted by Memnoch

I've been holding off on population-increasing improvements (ground clearance, farms etc) because of the major squalor problems I had in RTW. Is squalor still as big an issue in this game? I couldn't find a clear consensus on the threads that I searched.

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I find squallor (as well as the garrison required to boost happiness) to be alot less of a problem. In RTW I found that I had to fully garrison the 16 (or was it 20)? slots to get as much garrison bonus as I could because the happiness buildings plus low taxes did not do enough to keep a city from dropping below 100% happiness. In my M2 cities, I rarely have more than my free upkeep slots (if that) filled, so I'm rarely paying for garrison upkeep, and I rarely have a problem with unhappiness.

The suggestion to convert cities to castles might be a good one for those provinces that are far from your capital. Squallor or unhappiness penalties don't affect them as cities do, and I find their population growth slows and actually starts to go down when they hit a high population. As mentioned, a unit of peasants or some other cheap unit can easily garrison a castle until the necessary help arrives unless your enemy is using hit squads of spies to get 100%+ chance of opening the gates :laugh4: .... that or bringing lots of siege equipment.

So, in those areas that are very poor in income its best to have castles as you won't need to spend much in happiness buildings (or garrison) to keep up with squallor, and you wouldn't be making much money in trade or farming otherwise.

Don't worry about population increasing improvements as there are plenty of happiness related buildings to stay ahead of squallor. Eventually your settlement will reach a maximum size and population will cease to grow.

Here is my city of London.

Population: 53326 (Growth 0%)
Public Order: 200%
Income: 5907

Public Order:
5% Garrison (6 free upkeep units and a family member)
35% Law
50% Entertainment
35% Govenor Influence
30% Tax (Low)
40% Health

Negatives:
15% - Religious Unrest
80% - Squallor

I could take my govenor out and bring taxes up to normal, and still be at 135%. The tax level is where it is because I had changed it to maintain loyalty in the past. I currently only have a Coaching house and the Pleasure Palace is currently being built. I'm not sure why there is religious unrest as London is currently 100% Catholic and I haven't seen an inquisitor up on the island ever, and heretics have also likewise disappeared.

I tend to exterminate settlements that I capture as I was concerned about rioting that I found tended to occur in RTW. It also provides for a nice boost to the settlements public order until you can get the necessary buildings in place to maintain order for the long term.

Here is my financial statement for turn 174 ;)

I currently have 30 or 31 provinces.

Income:
20843 - Farming
1080 - Mining
44801 - Trade
226 - Merchant
27202 - Taxes
2500 - Kings Purse
539 - Corruption

Expenses:
11500 - Wages
44900 - Army
703 - Recruitment
23936 - Construction
2389 - Corruption

Totals:
Income: 97191
Expenses: 83422
Profits: 13769

I didn't write it down, but I currently have a treasury of about 76K florins. When the Black Death rolled through it decimated my 50K treasury to -20K, but my economy recovered very quickly after it passed.

Without any recruitment and construction, I have around a 41K profit per turn.

I have almost every city and castle building something, except for Caen and Nottingham since the only things currently left to build there are towers, siege equipment, and gunpowder upgrades. The ballista/cannon towers aren't necessary as those settlements haven't seen any action, and I haven't bothered to mess around with gunpowder... yet.

In RTW when you put something in the building queue (whether or not it will be built that turn), you pay for it up front. In M2, you only pay for it when it starts to be built.

Regarding troop recruitment, I build troops only when I will need them for a new invasion, or because I suddenly notice I have a weak defense, and I see another faction move a number of troops in my direction. Beyond that I retrain what I can. Regarding ships, I build enough to have 5-6 ships that stay in port. This protects them against enemy fleets, and enables me to use them primarily as troop transport. The only naval threat I faced was against the Danes, and so I didn't necessarily need to be proactive in attacking them, and they didn't land any troops by sea.


The things I list above may not necessarily translate over to your situation (you being the Turks, and as you mention, having lots of enemies), but if you have enough provinces, you should have no problems with trade, as each of your cities trade with each other, so it's not like in the original MTW where you need to be at peace with lots of factions to get decent trading going on. I have a ton of ships passing along the east coast of England. As your empire grows, and you improve your trade buildings, your trade income rises considerably.

You should see about focusing on trade related buildings, and cutting back on the naval forces. Depending on the position of your empire, there may be some things that you can do to maximize your number of troops. Unless it will be too much hassle to hold a province, I wouldn't consider abandoning anything.

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Originally Posted by Memnoch

My revenues are 60,000 approx. and my expenses (excluding new construction or new recruitment) are about 50,000 (35,000 army upkeep, 5,000 corruption and 10,000 wages).

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This is what I would call "netting" 10,000. You have 10,000 to spend on discretionary purposes every turn. Which is not bad. Plenty enough to order 5 or 6 low level buildings per turn, or put building on hold while you order up a new stack to conquer with.

Sounds like you don't yet have quite the luxury of working all your building queues continuously, which is the ultimate economic goal.

Reducing your navy alone will get you quite a bit more net cash relatively painlessly.

During the time where you have some net money but not enough to do everything you might want, I usually keep taxes high (there's no point in having your cities grow faster than you can keep up with) and focus on economic upgrades. I have a strong bias for the 1600 fl and lower cost upgrades. The bang for the buck tends to be a lot less as the upgrade gets more expensive. Those 4800 fl upgrades can wait until money is a little more plentiful and/or all the cheaper upgrades are done. Even the cheap order upgrades pay quick dividends as they allow higher taxes and/or smaller garrisons.

Movement of your capital city can be a great help, as mentioned. Experience as the Western Roman Empire in BI taught me that simply moving the capital can improve your income by thousands. It can make a stagnant empire into a wealthy growing one in a single move. (I imagine corruption is the same/similar in MTW2? Haven't checked)

Best way to stay in the green is to simply plan ahead. You want to attack such and such nation? Why? Will it make your borders more defendable (and thus cheaper)? Will you gain money from it in the long run? What short term losses are you likely to take, if any? Never take land simply because "you can". By planning ahead you can stop yourself getting into a stagnated situation where you have to consider trimming things down to balance your finances. Prevention is better than cure, as they say.

Of course... you could forget finances and just charge blindly into the enemy. Using all your money on units and castles and forgetting everything else. You're likely to capture the world very quickly this way... but where is the fun in endless war? Give me slow fulfilling progression with the drama of politics any day!

Exchange a province for peace and trade rights with Egypt. Preferably one between you and the Catholics if possible. You will increase your income and hopefully they will slow down a few crusaders as a bonus:juggle2:

Build farm's and upgrade them, you will get more pop and more cash from tax! don't worry about squalor you can maintain it! Build the mosques and get some imams out converting, spys work too in the city for unrest and both are cheep! Build the fort's along your northern choke points (the castle thing is a good idea but cost way too much money to convert back and forth) fort 500fl. a city can go yellow and even (blue for a few turns) and you should still be in control of the population. Muster up all the troops you can (after securing your northen boarders and go wack :smash: :egypt: :egypt: a ton of cash from Cairo/Alex it's "Total War" and you must expand..... I think you are keeping such a large fleet to kill the crusading army's in the water before they hit your coast REDUCE your fleet you really don't need that many ships till your ready for your 2 pronged invasion of the European main land.

OK, let’s see:

A) Income: total of about 60 000 florins

It would help if we knew where exactly did the money come from, because that would give an idea how well developed your lands are. But on general note for about 20 provinces (I am guessing that is what you have) with limited trade that is not bad.

I would like to point out one thing – you have Rhodes and Nicosia as castles. Those are island provinces that do not have land trade, just sea trade. As Castles they lack the proper infrastructure to fully use their location. Nicosia for instance is close to 5 other ports. As castle it will export to only one of them (no sea_trade buildings) and will not have bonuses from market type of buildings. With Rhodes and Nicosia as cities you’d earn 3000 - 5000 florins more per turn, depending on their (and their trading partners) level of development.


B) Expenses:

- Land army 20 000 florins;
- Navy 15 000 florins;
- Wages 10 000 florins;
- Corruption 5 000.

Total : 50 000 florins


C) Net profits: about 10 000 florins.

That is not bad. Not great, as you try to be chivalrous and therefore can not depend on occasional sacking of a city to help you out, but not bad for your immediate needs.

I’d use it first to improve situation and sort out your problems, than to invest in :
- economic buildings,
- religious buildings;
- law, health and happiness buildings;
- farms;
- military buildings.

Your goal should be to have about 25% - 30% of your total income as net profit. That will let you build in most of your provinces and save some cash for the Plague period.


D) Problem zones analysis:


I) Corruption: at a bit over 8 % of your total income it is not tragic, but you could try to limit it a bit.

First of all: where is your capitol? If it still is near the rim of your empire, than experiment with different locations. By doing so you will influence:

- Public Order – a capitol located near the center of the domain means less Distance to the Capitol penalty in most settlements;

- Corruption – distance to the capitol is a major factor that determines what percentage of Gross Income is wasted on Corruption. Capitol near richer cities = less Corruption loses;

- Merchant trade efficiency – the amount of florins each merchant makes of the resource type is partially determined by the distance of the nearest deposit of this resource type to the factions capitol. The greater the difference, the more money the merchants make on this type of resource.


All in all, I’d advise trying Adana or Antioch as the capitol. Unfortunately this will mean that income from merchant trade on for instance: Spices, Sugar and Cotton will be quite small comparing to other locations of the capitol. You’ll have to see the difference yourself.


II) Wages: 10 000 florins for 20 provinces is quite a lot, especially since you have not mentioned how many (and of what type) agents you have.

You have mentioned religious conversion problems, so I do not think you have many imams (if you do, maybe you just not use them properly = in groups).
You are trying to score on the chivalry thing for your leader, so I assume spying and assassination is not in your agenda.

That leaves diplomats – which in your situation, where you are at war with everyone and are likely to remain so (face it – the Christians just don’t like Muslims in this game, and AI doesn't like the player – it is pretty much preordained), is a waste of resources.

You also may have plenty of generals, which you have mentioned. Now that leaves us some options:

Divide your family members into four groups:

- governors: those that can and do increase the income of your settlements (you can test it by moving them in and out of a settlement). Place the best of them in your richest cities, and spread the rest;

- generals: those that are capable of leading your armies to victory – guys with high Command and various morale bonuses. Place one (just ONE) in command of your armies;

- apprentices – young and promising men, that need to survive to lead your Empire in future times. Place them in reserve (be it in cities to train as governors, or as young commanders have them train as conquerors on groups bandits and other scum that appears from time to time in your domain);

- the rest: the old ones, the useless ones, the mad ones… use most of them as heavy cavalry units in your armies, just make sure that they have a leader with higher command. Use few of them to erect watch towers (if you have not done this already) all over your domain, especially near the shores and outer borders. Make sure your whole Empire is without FOW and that you see the approaches to your provinces. Watch towers have no un-keep; spies, ships and soldiers do, so use them only where you can not use a watch tower.


III) Navy cost: 25 % of total income on a navy? :dizzy2: ARE YOU INSANE? Turks are not an island nation! 10% would be too much, if you were not at war with everybody.

Seriously – you overdid the navy, big time, especially if, as you say, the enemies are coming for you on land. You do NOT need to see all the sea surface, you need to do two things only:

a) keep your ports safe from being blockaded;
b) keep enemy invasion fleets from your shores.

You can achieve both with much smaller force. Divide your fleet into small task-forces with 3-5 ships. At first use war galleys for defense duties – place one such fleet in the following areas: north of Trebizond, near Bosphorus, on the Aegean, south of Corinth, west of Crete, south of Crete. Patrol the area if you must, but do try to converge on the enemies if you spot them.

Use dhows offensively – block enemy ports (I suggest targeting Egypt first), seek out and attack their fleets (use two or three groups for this – instead of attacking with one half a stack use three groups of three ships and surround the enemy before attacking). Use up the dhows – they are much less effective than war galleys and even though they cost less, the cost of replacing losses and recruiting replacements is greater for them.

After you loose most of the dhows, replace them with some of war galley fleets, leaving only three groups in defense – one on the Black Sea, one on the Aegean and one near Crete. Try keep the enemy on the defensive and destroy their fleets piecemeal.


IV) Land armies: 33% of total income for army un-keep isn't much. Your problem is that the army is tied up and of poor quality.

The "tied up" problem has one cause – the different religion of the provinces you conquered recently. You must convert the population as soon as possible. Each of those stacks is about 2000 – 3000 florins wasted on garrison duty each turn. Prioritize religious buildings in those provinces, send in hordes of imams (recruit them if you have to), assassinate the foreign religious agents present there! I know assassination does not go well with chivalrous leader, but there just is not any other way to get rid of those catholic priests (other then an exploit of stomping on them with military unit while having them already surrounded by other military units). If you allow them to linger in your lands you will never get rid of some part of religious unrest.

Once you do that you can start taking care of the poor quality of your troops. You see in your drive to spend less you made a grievous mistake: you have forsaken military efficiency and in reality made fighting cost you much more. Lets take the horse archers:
- Turkish HA un-keep is 150 florins, Sipahis 175 florins – you are saving about 17% unkeep costs;
- THA missile attack is 6, Sipahis 8 points – you are using a unit that is about 33% less efficient killer = it will take at least 1/3 more time to kill the same number of enemies;
- THA defense is 3 points, Sipahis is 15 points – you are using a unit that is about 5 times more likely to die on the battlefield.
The same might be said about your infantry. So just as in case of the navy your “improved” army will cost more to win with, as it will require much more money to replace much greater loses.

I’d suggest sending at least one of those stacks and conquering Egypt. Replace the armies in Thracia with better units and send poorer ones to die in the southern desert. You’ll get few new provinces with Muslim population and you will shorten your front lines there to one North African province.

Now as for crusaders – you have surplus generals (I think) to act as heavy cavalry and have plenty of Horse Archer units = a formula for very effective cavalry armies to fight defensively. You also have two passages (land bridges) to defend. It is perfect – you can use your cavalry to fight and kill mostly infantry enemy forces (in my experience Catholics seldom field cavalry heavy armies), all the while decreasing your army un-keep by loosing some outdated units and surplus family members. If you need advice on fighting as a horse archer: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=73479.

I do not know if the Mongols have shown up yet in your campaign, but you’ll need your best units to deal with them, so make some room.

That is what I would do, if I were you - analyze not only the cost, but also effectiveness and have a clear goal set.

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Originally Posted by MarekBrutus

...Once you do that you can start taking care of the poor quality of your troops. You see in your drive to spend less you made a grievous mistake: you have forsaken military efficiency and in reality made fighting cost you much more. Lets take the horse archers:
- Turkish HA un-keep is 150 florins, Sipahis 175 florins – you are saving about 17% unkeep costs;
- THA missile attack is 6, Sipahis 8 points – you are using a unit that is about 33% less efficient killer = it will take at least 1/3 more time to kill the same number of enemies;
- THA defense is 3 points, Sipahis is 15 points – you are using a unit that is about 5 times more likely to die on the battlefield.
The same might be said about your infantry. So just as in case of the navy your “improved” army will cost more to win with, as it will require much more money to replace much greater loses.

...

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Marek is quite correct , cheap does not equal good value .
Winston Churchill once said that in war there was nothing more expensive than a cost cutting measure . Without taking that too far , you should rebuild your land army . As others have pointed out , you have far too large {and thus expensive} a navy , so reducing this {just keep a small number of the most powerful vessels} will give you the funds to do this .

Marek was also correct in saying that an all cavalry army with lots of horse archers is the best crusade destroyer .

Marek did a wonderful post, but IMHO, a navy is worthless. I have played factions with lots of costal lands such as Venice and Sicily, but the upkeep for ships is simply too high. For one unit of the lowest ship, you can get a group of mailed knights I believe which I would much rather have. The ai rarely blockades you for a significantly long periods of time so blockades wont do too much to your economy, and instead of wasting money on ships to try to intercept unit carrying ships, one can simply use your land troops to kill anything that the ai drops on your lands.

Thanks for an extremely detailed post mate. Some of your suggestions I'd ended up doing (emergent strategy), while others I've adopted. Specific responses:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MarekBrutus

OK, let’s see:

A) Income: total of about 60 000 florins

It would help if we knew where exactly did the money come from, because that would give an idea how well developed your lands are. But on general note for about 20 provinces (I am guessing that is what you have) with limited trade that is not bad.

I would like to point out one thing – you have Rhodes and Nicosia as castles. Those are island provinces that do not have land trade, just sea trade. As Castles they lack the proper infrastructure to fully use their location. Nicosia for instance is close to 5 other ports. As castle it will export to only one of them (no sea_trade buildings) and will not have bonuses from market type of buildings. With Rhodes and Nicosia as cities you’d earn 3000 - 5000 florins more per turn, depending on their (and their trading partners) level of development.

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Yes, I decided to change Nicosia and Rhodes to cities. There wasn't much point in keeping them castles seeing as I had a castle in Caesarea already anyway.

Quote:

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B) Expenses:

- Land army 20 000 florins;
- Navy 15 000 florins;
- Wages 10 000 florins;
- Corruption 5 000.

Total : 50 000 florins


C) Net profits: about 10 000 florins.

That is not bad. Not great, as you try to be chivalrous and therefore can not depend on occasional sacking of a city to help you out, but not bad for your immediate needs.

---

After I got rid of 75% of my navy, my financial situation has improved! :D

Quote:

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I’d use it first to improve situation and sort out your problems, than to invest in :
- economic buildings,
- religious buildings;
- law, health and happiness buildings;
- farms;
- military buildings.

Your goal should be to have about 25% - 30% of your total income as net profit. That will let you build in most of your provinces and save some cash for the Plague period.

---

Not quite there yet - I'm getting about 15% as net "disposable" income at the moment, but pretty much all of it gets used up in construction, so I save close to zero. It's ok though, as I'm not eroding my balance.

Quote:

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D) Problem zones analysis:


I) Corruption: at a bit over 8 % of your total income it is not tragic, but you could try to limit it a bit.

First of all: where is your capitol? If it still is near the rim of your empire, than experiment with different locations. By doing so you will influence:

- Public Order – a capitol located near the center of the domain means less Distance to the Capitol penalty in most settlements;

- Corruption – distance to the capitol is a major factor that determines what percentage of Gross Income is wasted on Corruption. Capitol near richer cities = less Corruption loses;

- Merchant trade efficiency – the amount of florins each merchant makes of the resource type is partially determined by the distance of the nearest deposit of this resource type to the factions capitol. The greater the difference, the more money the merchants make on this type of resource.

---

I read somewhere here that you can build an "office" for your merchies and have multiple ones on the same resource. I was able to come up with a credible reason as to why they'd do that (trading coster with an office) and so I've been doing it, which has helped.

Quote:

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All in all, I’d advise trying Adana or Antioch as the capitol. Unfortunately this will mean that income from merchant trade on for instance: Spices, Sugar and Cotton will be quite small comparing to other locations of the capitol. You’ll have to see the difference yourself.

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I tested putting the capital somewhere in the Levant (Antioch or Jerusalem) but I decided to leave it in Iconium as it enabled me to get the most out of Constantinople, Antioch, Nicaea, Alexandria, Jerusalem and Cairo (and as I'd taken a few Hungarian cities I didn't want my capital too far to the east).

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II) Wages: 10 000 florins for 20 provinces is quite a lot, especially since you have not mentioned how many (and of what type) agents you have.

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Are wages only derived from agents? I thought they came from generals too? I have quite a few diplomats and lots of imams (the max for my number of cities at the moment).

Quote:

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You have mentioned religious conversion problems, so I do not think you have many imams (if you do, maybe you just not use them properly = in groups).

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Yes, this advice was good as I have now maxed my imams and am hunting in a pack to convert Eastern Europe (the area west of Constantinople anyway). I suppose it would be useful having an assassin with the imams to get rid of those annoying priests that are hanging around as well, but it spoils my roleplay and gives dread points to my leader I don't want, so I canned the assassins. Maybe next game...

Quote:

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You are trying to score on the chivalry thing for your leader, so I assume spying and assassination is not in your agenda.

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Spying yes, assassination no. I have a 7 star chivalry leader at the moment (he's a Holy Warrior, always releases prisoners and generally keeps things above board).

Quote:

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That leaves diplomats – which in your situation, where you are at war with everyone and are likely to remain so (face it – the Christians just don’t like Muslims in this game, and AI doesn't like the player – it is pretty much preordained), is a waste of resources.

You also may have plenty of generals, which you have mentioned. Now that leaves us some options:

Divide your family members into four groups:

- governors: those that can and do increase the income of your settlements (you can test it by moving them in and out of a settlement). Place the best of them in your richest cities, and spread the rest;

- generals: those that are capable of leading your armies to victory – guys with high Command and various morale bonuses. Place one (just ONE) in command of your armies;

- apprentices – young and promising men, that need to survive to lead your Empire in future times. Place them in reserve (be it in cities to train as governors, or as young commanders have them train as conquerors on groups bandits and other scum that appears from time to time in your domain);

- the rest: the old ones, the useless ones, the mad ones… use most of them as heavy cavalry units in your armies, just make sure that they have a leader with higher command. Use few of them to erect watch towers (if you have not done this already) all over your domain, especially near the shores and outer borders. Make sure your whole Empire is without FOW and that you see the approaches to your provinces. Watch towers have no un-keep; spies, ships and soldiers do, so use them only where you can not use a watch tower.

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Did this, cheers. I'm using heaps of watch towers (I have one family member who is my Head of Scouts).

Quote:

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III) Navy cost: 25 % of total income on a navy? :dizzy2: ARE YOU INSANE? Turks are not an island nation! 10% would be too much, if you were not at war with everybody.

Seriously – you overdid the navy, big time, especially if, as you say, the enemies are coming for you on land. You do NOT need to see all the sea surface, you need to do two things only:

a) keep your ports safe from being blockaded;
b) keep enemy invasion fleets from your shores.

You can achieve both with much smaller force. Divide your fleet into small task-forces with 3-5 ships. At first use war galleys for defense duties – place one such fleet in the following areas: north of Trebizond, near Bosphorus, on the Aegean, south of Corinth, west of Crete, south of Crete. Patrol the area if you must, but do try to converge on the enemies if you spot them.

Use dhows offensively – block enemy ports (I suggest targeting Egypt first), seek out and attack their fleets (use two or three groups for this – instead of attacking with one half a stack use three groups of three ships and surround the enemy before attacking). Use up the dhows – they are much less effective than war galleys and even though they cost less, the cost of replacing losses and recruiting replacements is greater for them.

After you loose most of the dhows, replace them with some of war galley fleets, leaving only three groups in defense – one on the Black Sea, one on the Aegean and one near Crete. Try keep the enemy on the defensive and destroy their fleets piecemeal.

---

Yes, this was what was killing me. I got rid of my bloated navy and found out that one a third of the size did just as well. I'm still dominant in the eastern Med and the Black Sea, and the only impact to my naval costcutting program is that it takes a bit longer to get rid of those annoying enemy ships (why WON'T they sink? All they do is run away which is annoying as you have to chase them).

Quote:

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IV) Land armies: 33% of total income for army un-keep isn't much. Your problem is that the army is tied up and of poor quality.

The "tied up" problem has one cause – the different religion of the provinces you conquered recently. You must convert the population as soon as possible. Each of those stacks is about 2000 – 3000 florins wasted on garrison duty each turn. Prioritize religious buildings in those provinces, send in hordes of imams (recruit them if you have to), assassinate the foreign religious agents present there! I know assassination does not go well with chivalrous leader, but there just is not any other way to get rid of those catholic priests (other then an exploit of stomping on them with military unit while having them already surrounded by other military units). If you allow them to linger in your lands you will never get rid of some part of religious unrest.

Once you do that you can start taking care of the poor quality of your troops. You see in your drive to spend less you made a grievous mistake: you have forsaken military efficiency and in reality made fighting cost you much more. Lets take the horse archers:
- Turkish HA un-keep is 150 florins, Sipahis 175 florins – you are saving about 17% unkeep costs;
- THA missile attack is 6, Sipahis 8 points – you are using a unit that is about 33% less efficient killer = it will take at least 1/3 more time to kill the same number of enemies;
- THA defense is 3 points, Sipahis is 15 points – you are using a unit that is about 5 times more likely to die on the battlefield.
The same might be said about your infantry. So just as in case of the navy your “improved” army will cost more to win with, as it will require much more money to replace much greater loses.

---

Yes, unfortunately in the urgency to get $$$ I teched-down my troops and got hammered by the Hungarian Feudal and Chivalric knights when I first went to battle with them - I had militia troops going against those guys and I got pounded. I've ended up using Turkomans as my staple HA unit, and a few of those Hashashin units - they're expensive but geez they're good. I've found that 45 Hashashins are a match for more than 90 feudal knights. :inquisitive:

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I’d suggest sending at least one of those stacks and conquering Egypt. Replace the armies in Thracia with better units and send poorer ones to die in the southern desert. You’ll get few new provinces with Muslim population and you will shorten your front lines there to one North African province.

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Gotten rid of Egypt already - I basically own the entire SE half of the map (from Alexandria/Cairo/Dongala to the southeast through Jedda and the Levant area, through Baghdad and north of the Caucasus to Sarkel and Bulgar, and through Asia Minor up past Constantinople through to Bran, Sofia and Greece (Corinta, Ragusa and that other city south of Ragusa). I've just called a jihad on Venice (funny, I thought you could only call a jihad on cities that had been inhabited by Muslims before). Oh, and I took Lisbon via a jihad called by the Moors, and I used my "spare" jihad army to take Dublin (which was a Portuguese possession at the time). It's pretty tough but Lisbon is big and has just gotten the ability to build Janissaries!

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Now as for crusaders – you have surplus generals (I think) to act as heavy cavalry and have plenty of Horse Archer units = a formula for very effective cavalry armies to fight defensively. You also have two passages (land bridges) to defend. It is perfect – you can use your cavalry to fight and kill mostly infantry enemy forces (in my experience Catholics seldom field cavalry heavy armies), all the while decreasing your army un-keep by loosing some outdated units and surplus family members. If you need advice on fighting as a horse archer: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=73479.

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I've been having crusaders come through Constantinople, but I've been able to stop them before they get to Asia Minor because I've taken the Hungarian lands around that area. Getting rid of 75% of my navy really did wonders for my financing. I guess the British Empire protocol of "3 ships for every other ship" isn't really practical here.

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I do not know if the Mongols have shown up yet in your campaign, but you’ll need your best units to deal with them, so make some room.

That is what I would do, if I were you - analyze not only the cost, but also effectiveness and have a clear goal set.

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Not yet - I'm waiting for them to appear. Thanks mate!

reduce army over head as much as possible.

garrison your castles with crappy units, like peasant archers and armoured sergeants. keep the minimum militia necessary to maintain public order (unless you can keep them for free).

neglect building anything that doesn't make you money unless you absolutely need it.

and the most important thing i can think of is to keep your wars away from your major profit making settlements.

if someone declares war on you near your capital, try immediately suing for peace. don't counter attack, just beg for peace. it sounds lame, but its worked for me. (i use one of those diplomacy mods however, and the AI might be less reasonable in your game)

For what they are worth, my little observations...

Trade is the key to income... build income producers, use merchants (they amount they produce per turn doesn't seem like much, but it adds up when you've got 1 or 2 in every province).

Higher population = more taxes collected... all else being equal, think long term and keep taxes as low as you can get away with. This is more for early in the game, if you're already in financial hell, you're going to have a difficult time cutting revenue. This isn't market economics, where lower taxes can mean more revenue.

Don't waste time with military buildings in cities. You need to constantly produce income and happy producers. Don't neglect the happy! ~:) =:2cents:

Keep the smallest navy you can afford. I tried to go the American rout and have a navy that could respond anywhere anytime, and they're just too damned expensive.

Know what you need for units and stick too it. It might help to give yourself a percentage based 'salary cap' for your defense budget. You should probably have a force capable of quick response to any part of your empire's frontiers, but don't get caught in the trap of simply building tons of troops and not thinking about what you are building. Use spies to scout your neighbors regularly so you know what you are up against if you have to face them... Don't station 5 units of heavy cavalry on a border with a nation that fields nothing but pikemen. By the same token, don't build billmen when levy spearmen will do.