Printable View
I have a question for you mongol fans out there; what was the total manpower of the hordes, compared to the manpower of the settled nations?
further, were the mongol bows significantly better( better penetration) than other peoples, settled and nomad, composite bows?
lastly, is there any reason the individual mongol trooper should be more proficient as a horseman and archer than other steppe peoples, fex cumans? or settled full time professionals like mamluks?
Well for one thing the Mongols tactics were revolutionary. The bows they used had excellent penetrative power. I'm not sure what the Mamluks used... Well. In any case each Mongol cavalry man had like five horses he kept with him just in case his favorite horse was tired or didn't match the color of his beautiful new lammaler armour. Which is really good by the way. It's light durable, etc.
Well in any case the Mongols acctually did push there way all the way to Mecca I belive. Pretty impressive speed considering they arrived in Yerevan just a few yrs ago... So like in the case of Russia I assume the Mongols beat the Mamluks hard but the Mamluks would learn their tactics as well. After a while the sheer volume of the setled peoples economic wealth and military strength must have been enough to push them out. Which then opened the door forr Tamerlame the Timurid. So yeah, I'd say the mongols are better. At least when they arrive they are. And that perhaps they're strong more or less to allow them to acheive their real world exploits more or less. In any chance... they taught the Russians, Turks, and Egyptians some invaluable lessons. :skull:
The Mamluks were the only people who managed to decisively beat the Mongols, that is beating the Mongols and the Mongols failing to avenge that loss.Quote:
So like in the case of Russia I assume the Mongols beat the Mamluks hard but the Mamluks would learn their tactics as well.
Anyway the Mongols weren't that many and the tales of the Mongol warriors numbering in the hundred's of thousands is sheer lunacy. Though as their Empire grew they made extensive use of locals, such as Turks and the like.
In Genghis Khan's invasions of the middle east and the subsequent raid into Russia and central Europe, the Mongols never numbered more than 100,000 (with non-mongol conscripts) men I believe. In every major battle they fought during this period, they were always outnumbered by their opponents. They raided Russia with only 20,000 Mongols, and later in Hungary they had a lot of non-mongol steppe horsemen making up a considerable part of their army.
As for their total strength, not sure but I know they had to keep China down during the same time they were invading Europe, so I don't know exactly how many more tumens were tied down in China (probably a lot more than the western forces).
Haven't read about Ain Jalut for a long time but from I remember, when the Mamluks defeated the Mongols, almost all of the Mongol troops were steppe conscripts (probably a lot of turkomens, again don't remember too well), basically the same kind of people Mamluks were recruited from. Apparently, the actual Mongol tumens returned east for some reason (I think either their Khan died or they went to fight some other mongol faction, or both) and they left their poor-quality conscript troops because they thought the Mamluks wouldn't attack. After Ain Jalut apparently Mongols were too busy with policital issues back home to really come back again and kick ass. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, like I said my memory is a bit hazy.
I believe that's basically it, never the less, the Mongols were not able to avenge the defeat at Ain Jalut and that was a tremendous failure.
The 'Mongol' invasion of the western steppes, Russia and eastern Europe consisted of Batu's personal army of about 5,000, around 50,000 seasoned Mongol troops under the command of a further 9 Mongol princes, several corps of Chinese and Persian siege engineers and during the intitial stages, considerable numbers of Qipchaq and other steppe conscripts. In truth, the conscripts were mainly prisoners pressed into service and at one point their numbers were so great they were almost twice the number of their captors. During the pause in the campaign to train them, many were sold into slavery, a considerable number going to Egypt*.
The total force which resumed the campaign was around 120,000 divided to spearhead various areas. with the onset of their attack on Hungary, the force of 20,000 was sent as a diversion into Poland. This may or may not be correct since Friar Giovanni DiPlano Carpini reports that 'Orda marched north with ten thousand'. Whatever the army size, it razed many cities, Sandomir and Kracow among them and defeated every Polish army sent to stop them. This culminated with the defeat of Duke Heinrich of Silesia at Liegnitz which was two days before the Mongol main force under Batu and Subedei defeated Bela IV at Sajo in Hungary.
The Mongol system was advanced for its time, they were highly trained and above all had experienced thirty years or more of campaign. There was no magic element in their bows, most of the bows of the steppe nomads were similarly designed at that time. It was Mongol military discipline and the unusually large number of extremely talented Generals (at one time). The masterful strategies of Subedei have been studied by countless Generals since.
*The Qipchaq prisoners were put into military service in Egypt.....Mameluks.
....And so we come to Ain Jalut, the most overly hyped battle in history. Mongol armies had been bested before this battle, in 1236 the Volga Bulgars defeated an army of 30,000 under Suntaq, one of Batu's brothers and the Koreans held out admirably, accepting suzerainty but not actually 'conquered'.
With the death of Mangku Khan, a power struggle broke out between Ariq Buka and Qubilai. Many things had happened during Mangku's rule, the most significant being the purges of the Ogodeid and Chagadaid houses, with many of these princes being executed.
Hulegu found himself in a very insecure position, his logistical position was under threat from Qaidu (Ogodeid prince who gained power in Chagadaid domains), ahead of him were the Mameluks and his right flank was threatened by the Golden Horde (who disputed his hold over the south Caucasus) who had allied with the Mameluks. Hulegu withdrew to secure his position leaving a rearguard under Qit Bukha, it contained a considerable number of Armenian and Georgian auxiliaries and was outnumbered by the Mameluk army which ironically, was granted safe passage through crusader holdings.
The battle itself was anything but a clear defeat, the Mameluk left flank collapsed causing desperate measures from Qutuz. The Mameluks held and Baibars delivered the final blow. Many of the Golden Horde troops within the Mameluk ranks remained with them after the battle and even with Qubilai's conclusive victory over his brother, Hulegu's advance was stopped and would never be in a position complete its task.
The Ilkhanate did in fact go on to exact revenge and at one point held all of Syria but it was overstretched and with continuing hostilities with the Golden Horde, the Mameluks were able to regain their losses fairly easily
........Orda
Well, in MTW 1, I think they showed up with like 20 stacks or so. I was ready with my own 20 stacks and it was one long battle. I think I might of even won.
You may want to check out an author by the name of Conn Iggulden. He wrote 4 novels about the life of Julius Ceasar, and has just started writing about Genghis Khan. I'm not sure what period he's going to cover, and the first book was very much small-scale stuff. But he's a fantastic author, who gives loads of detail on historical battles, equipment, training etc.
I think one of the biggest advantage of the Mongols was that they were basically pow surprise. They had new tactics which were not expected by the Europeans. Hit and run was considered cowardly and such so the Europeans refused to use them, and as a result never develope an counter strategy. However, Mongols were the master of hit and run and feint retreats and such, so basically they got pretty surprised.
In my opinion the real achievement of the Mongols was being able to defeat the Jin and Song Dynasty in such short time, under the conditions of southern China which was not conducive to mongolian warfare. (Huge cities, waters, hills, etc)
I know the battle of Ain Jalut is not all it's made out to be, but it was decisive in the fact that the Mongols never managed to conquer Syria and Egypt. And yes it was basically a small number of Mongols and allies versus whatever the Mamluks could afford to field. But it was a defeat for the Mongols and they were not able to avenge it, mostly because of internal trouble, but it was a defeat none the less.Quote:
*The Qipchaq prisoners were put into military service in Egypt.....Mameluks.
....And so we come to Ain Jalut, the most overly hyped battle in history. Mongol armies had been bested before this battle, in 1236 the Volga Bulgars defeated an army of 30,000 under Suntaq, one of Batu's brothers and the Koreans held out admirably, accepting suzerainty but not actually 'conquered'.
With the death of Mangku Khan, a power struggle broke out between Ariq Buka and Qubilai. Many things had happened during Mangku's rule, the most significant being the purges of the Ogodeid and Chagadaid houses, with many of these princes being executed.
Hulegu found himself in a very insecure position, his logistical position was under threat from Qaidu (Ogodeid prince who gained power in Chagadaid domains), ahead of him were the Mameluks and his right flank was threatened by the Golden Horde (who disputed his hold over the south Caucasus) who had allied with the Mameluks. Hulegu withdrew to secure his position leaving a rearguard under Qit Bukha, it contained a considerable number of Armenian and Georgian auxiliaries and was outnumbered by the Mameluk army which ironically, was granted safe passage through crusader holdings.
The battle itself was anything but a clear defeat, the Mameluk left flank collapsed causing desperate measures from Qutuz. The Mameluks held and Baibars delivered the final blow. Many of the Golden Horde troops within the Mameluk ranks remained with them after the battle and even with Qubilai's conclusive victory over his brother, Hulegu's advance was stopped and would never be in a position complete its task.
The Ilkhanate did in fact go on to exact revenge and at one point held all of Syria but it was overstretched and with continuing hostilities with the Golden Horde, the Mameluks were able to regain their losses fairly easily
Another huge difference was the Mongolians abhorrence for melee combat. The Mongolians believed that a man's blood carried his soul and to get any blood on you, or to spill your own, was deep taboo. As a result, all their tactics and techniques focused entirely on ranged offense and counter-offense. When the Russians first met the Mongolians on the field, they were confused because the Mongolians never closed for battle, they held back and rained volley after volley on the Russian infantry until they broke.
Snite
I was thinking about making the Mongol invasion more challenging in the game. Right now it's just 5 stacks + 5 stacks later, so the Mongols do not even manage to conquer a single city. Yes, I lost some battles, but these losses were strategic victories as I could quickly replenish my troops. I didn't use assassins (though I had 2 or 3 uber-killers hanging around) to give Mongols a start.
Maybe I should double their units manpower? Hope game won't crash on that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snite
If thats true (and I'm not implying it isnt) then it makes me wonder how and why they became warriors at all in the first place. Necessity for survival obviously but still makes me wonder. Sounds kinda pacifist in some ways.
The Mongols were not at all worried about spilling blood, unless that is, it was the blood of a noble. It was for this reason that the Russian princes were suffocated after Kalka; the Caliph of Baghdad was wrapped and trampled under hoof; and many Mongol princes were forced to swallow stones until they choked during the purges of Mangku and Batu. This was not seen as torture but a mark of respect. Lower classes were not given this consideration
......Orda
The Mongols usually come in three waves with the first being only a recon unit of 4 and a bit stacks which eventually should reach 15 stacks. Mostly they will hang going backwards and then forwards until the remaining stacks enter the map and then head of towards "Horde Targets" which are Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, Smolensk or Kiev. They will settle only in either of these regions and sack any settlements in their path towards them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollon
I have no idea why you would think they need to be more challenging. As I never play at a setting less than VH its possible that less Mongols arrive at lower settings.