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Is the Iphikrates who is in Thermon at the start of the game supposed to be the one who initiated the changes in hoplite fighting styles?
Because according to Plutarch, Iphikrates was around in 390, when he defeated the spartans at Lechaeum, so he would be getting on a bit by 272!
Died in 353 BC.
Thats sort of my point. Who is the Iphikrates in Thermon in 272?
Some random guy with the same name?
It's a common enough Greek name. It's actually sort of redundant ("strong strength" or something like that). Don't you hate it when someone gets so famous that they ruin a name? Like having an Adolf somewhere and everyone wonders - is that *the* Adolf? Or did his parents name him for him? Or something like that? :laugh4:
I guess it's also a warning saying (hi our leader is Iphikrates so beware cuz we have Thorakitai Hoplitai and Iphikratian Hoplitai, dont attack us unless you have something better than Hoplite Levies! oh and dont forget war with most Greek factions!)
Who is this guy and what reforms did he do? I ask this because the Iphrikates Hoplites are the most unrealistic and ridiculous unit I've seen so far. They don't have heavy armor, they don't have long enough spears, they hold these spears with only one hand meaning much less power and they have shields smaller than hoplons/aspis and they use underhanded animation.
If they just used their spears overhanded, they would be Thorakitai, an almost exact replica of Triarii. As they are currently, they suck against everything.
Iphicrates was an Athenian general during the Corinthian war. He became famous for bringing the peltasts to the light as a fighting force. Until then they were used poorly but he invented a new type of shoes, so that they could run better and gave them better equipment. Then he assaulted a Spartan mora (spartan division, I am not sure how many men) that was returning from a raid in Thebes. When the cavalry left the Spartan phalanx alone, he moved out of Corinth and attacked them. The peltasts were raining javelins and arrows on the Spartans but retreated when the heavy-armoured men tried to catch up with them. In the end, the Spartans panicked and tried to run and were slaughtered. It was a very shocking defeat and there is a long chapter in Xenophon's history about it.
Edit: Found some more info
Quote:
Iphicrates (d. c. 353 BC, Greek: Ιφικράτης) was an Athenian general, the son of a shoemaker, who flourished in the earlier half of the 4th century BC.
He owes his fame as much to the improvements he made in the equipment of the peltasts or light-armed mercenaries (named for their small pelte shield) as to his military successes. Historians have debated about just what kind of "peltasts" were affected by his reforms; one of the most popular positions is that he improved the performance of the Greek skirmishers so that they would be able to engage in prolonged hand-to-hand fighting as part of the main battle line, while another strong opinion posits that he worked his changes upon the mercenary hoplites that were an important factor in late 5th- and early 4th-century B.C. Greek land warfare.
His "Iphicratean reforms" consisted of increasing the length of their spears and swords, substituting linen cuirasses in place of heavier bronze armor, and introducing new footwear (later called iphicratids) that were easier to don and remove than previous models. In addition, he replaced the heavy hoplon/aspis with a lighter pelte that could be strapped to the forearm, freeing the left hand to help hold the lengthened spears. By these changes he greatly increased the rapidity of their movements. He also paid special attention to discipline, drill and maneuvers; the longer weapons, combined with the lighter armor and shield, forced his troops to take a more aggressive approach in tactical situations. With his peltasts Iphicrates dealt the Spartans a heavy blow in 392 BC-390 BC by almost annihilating a mora (a battalion of about 600 men) of their famous hoplites.
I think there may be changes in the future for the iphikratean hoplites and epilektoi ones, *but* they have nothing to do with your points. You really do yourself no justice by saying they are "unrealistic and ridiculous" and then pointing out exactly some of the things Iphikrates changed. :clown: :thumbsdown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Caveira
So they were two-handed according to that article; why are they one handed in EB? And what pelte is this? Is pelte the shield used by Pezhetaroi?
Actually I do. In theory the Iphricates hoplites of EB are both inferior in offensive terms and in defensive terms, relative to both Pezhetaroi and classic Hoplitai.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
When someone, anyone, says a unit is "unrealistic", "ridiculous", and "sucks" when they clearly show they don't know anything about the unit's history, development, or armament, what do you expect from us? Try voicing your complaints more reasonably and after you've read a little about the unit.
Iphricates hoplites are tough cookies. They pin and slaughter lighter troops thanks to the phalanx, they can hold the line against pike men for some time. Plus if you need it you can take them out of phalanx and use them as shock troops. I find they go toe to toe with classic hoplites and win quite comfortably.
Do those Iphikratean Hoplites move faster than Pezhetairoi? How many different movement speed animations did you guys put in for EB? I am curious about this because I've never really went to experiment with the units. Also, wasn't the Macedonian Phalangite inspired from the Iphikratean Hoplite, and subsequently superseded it? Wouldn't, then, the Greek Cities have switched to the supposedly better system of infantry? I don't really have any facts at hand here, so I'm merely asking.
There is more in the works for KH also - it's a fine line to walk (answering legit questions vs. keeping some stuff hidden for excitement), but I will say there is a reform for KH in the edb.txt code.
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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
Reforms for KH?????????????????????????
~:mecry: ~:mecry: ~:mecry: ~:mecry: ~:mecry: ~:mecry:
Don't tease us Teleklos.:wall:
"In theory", meaning you have only looked at their stats. They will lose to Pezhetairoi in straight 1 on 1 frontal battle for obvious reasons, but will beat other hoplites thanks to the phalanx formation. Have you even used or fought against them? Don't say they are unrealistic if you don't know anything about them, and saying they are ridiculous is just one's opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caveira
Edit: KH reforms... *drool*
DAMNIT TATTY! Now I have to postpone playing my super amazing KH campaign to AD14.. arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I'm melting!!!
I cry tears of joy though. Anything that makes my favourite faction more interesting is just oodles of greatness.
Well, yes that is true. They're abit cheaper than Pezherairoi so it wouldnt' be fair. They can take down the lesser(their cost or less) Alexandrian phalanxes through. I haven't tested them much in .81 but in .80, the best thing I found out to do with phalanx to phalanx fighting is to take them off guard mode.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaatu
Then you can put them in a very wide formation. This is particularly true of the KH small type phalanxes since they tend to have better secondary stats. They'll melt into the other phalanx and hack them apart. Conversely, you can use a shorter but thicker unit of phalanxes to split another in half. Then you can take them out of phalanx and let them destroy the other phalanx.
^I love that trick , perfect for facing the Macedonian hordes of Pezoihetorai.
Sadly, I can't get that to work very well with the Iphikratous Hoplitai. I didn't think the old Thorakitai Hoplitai were THAT much better than their little bros.
I do not mean by looking at the stats, i mean by looking at their equipment! With light armour they are not stronger than Pezheteroi and definitly inferior to Hoplitai (who have bigger shields). Their smaller (relative to sarissa) spears (used one handed) would be no match for the sarissa and, being used underhanded and not too long, more heavily armoured hoplites would charge, go trough the spears, and win on melee against the Iphricates. In theory that is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaatu
That's why I say they don't make any sense.:thumbsdown:
If you switched their shield to pelte, strapped to the forearm, made them use a two-handed animation and gave them the "pseudo-phalanx" of BI so that they can run and charge (if possible with slighty longer spears), THEN, they would make much more sense, theoriticly speaking, and they would also look more like in the text provided by Vorian. :2thumbsup: In my opinion of corse.
Bear in mind they were the precursor for Macedonian phalanx, so the sarissa was one step forward from the Iphicratean style. Lighter armour and shield meant you could outrun the heavier hoplites and you would basically have "better stamina". I don't know if those are reflected in the game statwise. You don't have to keep them in phalanx, so they can run and charge. But of course "in theory" is in theory, so you might be correct. I'm all for the two-handed animation, though not for the BI running circus. :fishbowl:Quote:
Originally Posted by Caveira
Damn I'm fast...
Actually, aren't both the Iphikratean Hoplitai and the Pezhetairoi both represented in game with the Linothorax? Thus both of them have the same light armour! Also, bigger shields might not be necessary better; if they were, why didn't everybody just carry around a pavise? The shield that the Iphikratean Hoplitai uses in the game is longer, although not as wide, so it isn't that much worse in terms of coverage. More importantly, it is much lighter, allowing one to use it in a more active manner, manuevering the shield to deflect and block, rather than just locking arms into a rigid position and forming an unmoving wall of shields. This allowed the hoplite greater mobility and effectiveness while outside the phalanx. Although I still think that the Iphikratean Hoplitai should use a 2-handed animation. I mean, the Greeks have always been strapping their shields to their arms, so why should they suddenly switch to a buckler-style shield?
^There can be various levels of lino thorax . Some can have more levels of linen and leather or metal plates on the abdomen area.
^ In EB you'll find that the Mak/AS elite phalanxes wear such an "heavy" lineothorax.