My First Campaign as Egypt

Using the 2H fix, shield fix.

First try as a Muslim faction. Won on turn 120 using H/H, but it was pretty interesting at the end.
- I was very lucky in that the Mongols headed for Russia (#1 at the time) and never did wander down my way.
- I wiped out the first Crusade called against me (several factions), and never did have another one called against me. Seemed to be going to Toulouse, Rome, etc.
- Somehow I got "suckered" into taking Venice, as even though the Venetians only had 3 provinces they seemed capable of turning out "infinite stacks" and just kept coming. I say suckered as that caused a head-to-head with the Pope, and HIS stacks were truly awesome.

Bottom line is that I felt even my "best" stacks were heavily outclassed towards the end, and I was only winning battles by really focusing on favorable terrain, etc. The Pope knocked any cockiness out of me the first time we met with roughly equal numbers.

I won in the end by bribing a rebel castle just before taking Province #45. BTW, first time I've EVER been able to bribe a rebel city/castle. Tried it more out of curiosity than any hope of success.

So I won, but frankly wasn't all that pleased with myself. The Mongols stayed away, only 1 crusade, and at the end there were fairly impressive amounts of Catholic stacks loaded with high-level units (DFKs, etc.) headed my way. ~:shock: I rushed to get #45 rather than try and fight all that.

But hey-- a win is a win! :2thumbsup:

You had it easy...

Thank Allah and go on to VH/VH...

You're certainly capable of it...

What I don't understand is how you'd be outclassed by the Pope's armies. The Pope has the standard Italian faction troops WITHOUT the specific goodies like Venetian Heavy Infantry, Norman Knights or Genoese Crossbowmen that the other factions get. They have the normal Italian units (Italian Militia, Italian Spear Militia, Pavise Crossbows, Men-At-Arms) and then the Swiss Guard. Nothing else. The Swiss Guard are good, but otherwise they lack the added cavalry punch of the Sicilians, the very powerful infantry of the Venetians, and the extra power of the Genoese Crossbows. They also lack mobility, as most of their armies will have been packed with militia on foot.

Given that in the late period you'd have units like Tabardariiya, Royal Mamluks, Mamluk Archers, and Naffatun, I don't really see how the Papal armies would be able to defeat you. They don't have anything mobile enough to cope with Mamluk Archers. You have Tabardariiya and Naffatun to counter their heaviest troops. You have better cavalry than them in your Royal Mamluks.

I haven't actually fought as either side in a Pope/Egypt battle, but I've played as both factions, so this bewilders me a little bit.

What did the Papal armies mostly consist of, and what did you field?

Unorthodox: Papal armies were heavy on papal guard and swiss guard. My problem was getting my best units to the fight. Not so much an issue of them beating me, but after two or three good battles my stockpile of good units in the West was heavily attrited. Even though I aggressively tech'ed up, I had to move these high-end units all the way from Constantinople/Bran or the Middle East. Either way I found my high-end units being attrited faster than they could be replaced. And my experience was that taking on the Pope without a good number of high-end units is no fun at all...

So I'd typically have around 4 Saracens, 4 Mamluk HA's, 2 Mamluk Cav and whatever else I could scrape together (Archers, Naffutan,etc.). After the first couple of battles, any existing Royal Mamluks, etc., were pretty much gone. Classic attrition-- Pope could afford lots of losses, while every high-end unit of mine had to be trucked in from a great sdistance. In another 20 turns or so I probably could have tech'ed up someplace closer, but I was getting fed up with it so went for the win. Not to mention those OTHER Catholic armies sauntering my way.

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Originally Posted by Swordsman

Unorthodox: Papal armies were heavy on papal guard and swiss guard. My problem was getting my best units to the fight. Not so much an issue of them beating me, but after two or three good battles my stockpile of good units in the West was heavily attrited. Even though I aggressively tech'ed up, I had to move these high-end units all the way from Constantinople/Bran or the Middle East. Either way I found my high-end units being attrited faster than they could be replaced. And my experience was that taking on the Pope without a good number of high-end units is no fun at all...

So I'd typically have around 4 Saracens, 4 Mamluk HA's, 2 Mamluk Cav and whatever else I could scrape together (Archers, Naffutan,etc.). After the first couple of battles, any existing Royal Mamluks, etc., were pretty much gone. Classic attrition-- Pope could afford lots of losses, while every high-end unit of mine had to be trucked in from a great sdistance. In another 20 turns or so I probably could have tech'ed up someplace closer, but I was getting fed up with it so went for the win. Not to mention those OTHER Catholic armies sauntering my way.

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Pope is pure infantry, isn't he? I mean in practice. That means I would bring all Mamluk Archers to the party like I do with other Italian factions. They slaughter the infantry and preserve most of their own force. Foot archers that are skirmishing can't shoot, so the pavise corssbows don't get off many shots. And if you bag the whole army, the morale penalties are very high. They really get nervous when surrounded. I've done this a lot as Turks. Did it once with Egypt against Milan on a Crusade also. Worked great. Heroic victory in the latter case at Jerusalem. If you run out of arrows, take the loss and retreat. Preserve your horse archers! Repeat. If you keep 90+% of your horse archers alive each time, you will rapidly wear out the enemy stock of units and surpass their replacement capacity.

And capture an advanced city/castle locally to build replacements in. ;~) Grab one away from the front line... behind it. Usually they have small(er) garrisons.

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Originally Posted by vonsch

Pope is pure infantry, isn't he? I mean in practice. That means I would bring all Mamluk Archers to the party like I do with other Italian factions. They slaughter the infantry and preserve most of their own force. Foot archers that are skirmishing can't shoot, so the pavise corssbows don't get off many shots. And if you bag the whole army, the morale penalties are very high. They really get nervous when surrounded. I've done this a lot as Turks. Did it once with Egypt against Milan on a Crusade also. Worked great. Heroic victory in the latter case at Jerusalem. If you run out of arrows, take the loss and retreat. Preserve your horse archers! Repeat. If you keep 90+% of your horse archers alive each time, you will rapidly wear out the enemy stock of units and surpass their replacement capacity.

And capture an advanced city/castle locally to build replacements in. ;~) Grab one away from the front line... behind it. Usually they have small(er) garrisons.

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You are right about the all HA army. That would have been doable. But to hit and run would have almost insured the loss of Venice. Everyone seemed to have some type of cannon and they weren't waiting to siege when they had them (to my surprise). Plus (and this is just me) I just tend to play with more balanced armies. Not to beat a dead horse :laugh4: , but I was looking at POTENTIALLY getting hit with 6-7 full stacks of high-end units (Milan, HRE, France, Papacy) in a period of 2 turns.

Ragusa and Insbruck were surprisingly undeveloped castles-- probably due to all the infighting, and maybe the flip side of only one crusade against me. And seemingly out of character, all the remaining "good" cities were well-defended-- and all with large/multiple stacks nearby. So basically it was go for the win immediately or settle in for a long slugging match-- which actually might have been fun, but guess I wimped out.

Swordsman, or any Eggy specialist...

I just started my first Eggy campaign last night. Didn't have a lot of time, so I autocalced my way on a Jihad to Antioch. Tonight I'm going to put the time in to actually fight my own battles.

How do you think the Eggy units fight compared to Euro units? I've done a Spanish and a Danish campaign so far before this, and I've played MTW and RTW extensively. This unit lineup is not as similar to either of those as I would have thought. They look to be more cavalry and infantry focused now.

Is it possible to rely on my peasant archer and archer militia to deliver decent damage? Can my units, esp in the early game, stand up one to one against crusader units (I've got the first one heading towards Jerusalem).

From reviewing the units, I plan to rely on Saracen Infantry for my main line, and then Mamluks for cav and horse archers (not real good with HA though). Then I'll fill in with Archer Militia for missiles.

Oh and how often can I start a Jihad?

One thing I am enjoying is the economy. The starting cash kept me afloat, and now that I'm holding Antioch and allied to the Turks, I'm doing rather well. Compared to my first experiences in Europe, this is a refreshing change.

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Is it possible to rely on my peasant archer and archer militia to deliver decent damage? Can my units, esp in the early game, stand up one to one against crusader units (I've got the first one heading towards Jerusalem).

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You'd be better off using HA/Desert Archers until Gunpowder shows up. The Militia/peasent archers are garrision fodder only. ear in mind that Mamaluk archers are as good in melee as Mailed Knights too so don't tottally dismiss them.

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From reviewing the units, I plan to rely on Saracen Infantry for my main line, and then Mamluks for cav and horse archers (not real good with HA though). Then I'll fill in with Archer Militia for missiles.

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Thats not a bad idea, but drop the foot archers for more mounted. Like you i'm not much good with HA, but you really need to rely on them in vanillia as pre-gunpowder you don't have a decent FA until well up the castle tech tree.

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How do you think the Eggy units fight compared to Euro units? I've done a Spanish and a Danish campaign so far before this, and I've played MTW and RTW extensively. This unit lineup is not as similar to either of those as I would have thought. They look to be more cavalry and infantry focused now.

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Pretty good summary. Egypt is mostly Cav/HA based in the early stages, switching to foot infantry with some Cav as the game progresses and you start getting a useful number of Large Cities.

You want to learn to run HA decently as Egypt. Even 4 in a stack can be powerful. I suggest a pair on each wing, then set them to fire at will and skirmish (the defaults) and double-click them to run to the flanks of the enemy in loose formation, then when they get there, double-click them to run to the opposite side of the enemy (right "through" the center). They will run until they hit skirmish range then pull back, repeat, etc. All the time shooting into the formation's flanks. Then you can forget them until they run out of arrows. If cavalry charges them, they will skirmish off taking it with them as they shoot it up.

That's the easy way to put them to use.

They are also good at suppressing enemy archers, but that takes more management. Just charge them through the archers the same way. They will force the archers to skirmish too, and archers can't shoot while skirmishing. But it takes more "touch" as you can't predict where those archers will go, and if more than one they will split up, odds are. Done right, you can totally take the enemy missile troops out of action this way (HA excepted!), while killing them off at the same time.

And when your Mamluk Archers run out of arrows, put them back into close formation and use them to charge flanks and rear, or chase routers.

Saracen are a pretty decent spear unit, and great as garrison spears. Carl said it about the foot archers. Move to desert archers as soon as you can. The militia and peasant ones are okay for rear city garrisons, but you're on the Mongol highway (and Crusader highway). In the Holy Land, go for quality. You can afford it.

Naffatun are great in garrisons (and at bridge battles). I use two per garrison. One sits over the gatehouse in a siege attack, the other is available for hotspots (but a bit risky to use in melees until their experience is high) and as a reserve in multiple siege situations where I can't get in replacements. Over the gatehouse they wreak havoc on rams and troops waiting for the ram. Your naffatun will often kill more than any other unit. Very often. Almost always... unless the main attack is on the walls and they ignore the gate. They do pretty well posts just off from the tower ramp a bit so they can throw into the waiting troops, ditto for ladders, but watch that they don't throw into the melee on the wall. You'll lose a lot of troops to friendly fire.

They kill generals really well too. If you include one in a stack and keep it as a reserve until the enemy general charges, you can flank him and usually take him out with the naffs. At a minimum they will kills a lot of bodyguard and dump the morale in the area with their fire attack. But they are pretty vulnerable in melee due to unit size (good defensive stats, but just not enough of them to stand up to full strength units). They also should be last choice as direct wall defenders for the same reasons, and they are much better pitching jars of fire.

Desert Cav are useful early on. Those javs will take out armored opponents well, aren't affected by rain, and the unit can be used much like horse archers. But they are better aimed at getting around the flanks to hit enemy generals in the rear. I usually put them in loose formation until they use up their javs. Once they do, they can do some limited (and careful) flank and rear charges, but they are a bit fragile in melee. They chase routers well with their speed.

Arab Cav is decent early, but while it packs a nice charge punch, it dies fast in melee too. I use a couple with my HA mobile armies to help the general with charges. If you let the HA shoot up the enemy a while first, the charges usually rout the unit they hit, making the Arabs last a lot longer. I see these units rout a lot because they get caught in a melee, flanked, and wiped down to nothing fast. But they can still pay for themselves, and better to lose them than my very experienced HA!

The Mamluk cav units (plain and royal) are good cav. Never used either. I tend to use HA more than pure cav. But later in the game they can replace generals in the heavy charge duty. And I've mostly quit aroun turn 50 to go try something else.

Halberd militia are good for chopping up spear units and wall defense. Use them after the unit they are attacking is engaged so their defense value isn't at play much. Tabarariyya are better. Never used them though. Never built any as I was in the end game by then.

Go for Horsebreeders guild. It's hard in vanilla due to the city-only nature, but you have the tools as Egyptian to do it. Build a race track and host races. Get it up to at least master level so you get the global bonus. The extra experience on cav will help you a lot as Egypt since you should use a lot of cav. You should at least be able to build Mamluk Archers in the city too, using the racetrack. (I've been playing Carl's Rebuild-ProblemFixer, so the rules on city versus castle production I'm playing with are different, and I forget exactly what can be made where in vanilla ~;) ).

Also, you want to try to dominate the sea in your end of the Med at least. You have the cash flow to support it. Grabbing the islands from Crete east is a good idea if/when you can. Taking those ports gives you safe bases, and denies them to the enemy(s). Rhodes is rebel to start. But Venice usually goes after it fast, and Byz too. When either of those picks a fight with you, make grabbing the islands they own a priority. Owning the sea on your end will make stopping seaborne crusades much easier (though they are not common in my experience), and make amphibious invasions much safer. And the latter are very powerful once you start expanding.

The second tier ship is pretty decent. Beyond that the power curve starts shifting to the western nations, so gain control of the sea fairly early and keep it. It's useful to shift units from Alexandria to the Holy Land by sea too. Interior lines versus exterior.

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Originally Posted by Unorthodox

What I don't understand is how you'd be outclassed by the Pope's armies. The Pope has the standard Italian faction troops WITHOUT the specific goodies like Venetian Heavy Infantry, Norman Knights or Genoese Crossbowmen that the other factions get.

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Special units of Italian factions are overrated, because they require castles and they're not that much better than what they could get straight out of their cities. Mounted and Dismounted Lances are good enough units to cover your heavy infantry and calvary needs. Pavise Crossbow Militia isn't as good as Genoese Crossbowmen, but they're still good enough that it's normally not worth it for Milan to build a castle just for that unit.

Unlike special units of other factions, Papal/Swiss Guards pop right out of the cities and clearly outclass any other faction's comparable units: There are no spear unit like the Papal Guards and only the Scot Noble Pikes come close to Swiss Guards.

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Special units of Italian factions are overrated, because they require castles and they're not that much better than what they could get straight out of their cities.

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Completly false when talking about VHI, NOTHING foot based that isn't a pike is better than them in melee overall.

Also, the reasone Genoese Crossbows aren't so uber is because in tests i've found a missile attack ov over 10+AP is the same as a missile attack of 10+AP. thus everything from Pavise Crossbow Militia upwards is identical.

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Originally Posted by TeutonicKnight

One thing I am enjoying is the economy. The starting cash kept me afloat, and now that I'm holding Antioch and allied to the Turks, I'm doing rather well. Compared to my first experiences in Europe, this is a refreshing change.

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That economy is the real Egyptian strength.

Also, as for getting good with HA. I have to agree. There are better infantry and melee cavalry factions. The Mameluk Archer is expensive, but superb. It's quite a fine melee unit too, with an anti-armor bounus. It is one of the best all-round cavaly units in the game, with low building requirements.

Started out on H/H on orginal game (i.e. no bug fixs, mods, etc. except changed the desc_strat file to get egypt, moors, etc.) used Gaza to churn out Dhows(name in MTW, is it same in M2?) by turn 30 i have Dongola(?) acre, antioch, jeruselem, damascus and am besieging edesessa(?) and caeserium(?) use a mixed stack mainly with lots of cavalry

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Originally Posted by Carl

Also, the reasone Genoese Crossbows aren't so uber is because in tests i've found a missile attack ov over 10+AP is the same as a missile attack of 10+AP. thus everything from Pavise Crossbow Militia upwards is identical.

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Really? What's the explanation for this?

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Originally Posted by Jambo

Really? What's the explanation for this?

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Armor caps out at 11. Going to go out on a limb and saying that the game prevents any AP missile from reducing the armor from half of it's original. Rendering anything higher then 10.5 pretty useless.

On one hand, I'm not going to dismiss something that Carl says he tested. On the other, I've just watched camel gunners decimate several units of Crusader Knights despite a slow rate of fire.

Anybody got an explanation? It sure looked like the CG's attack of 16 was quite effective.

In my experience CG kill everything a lot faster than most other missile units. Modded Sherwood Archers with +16 missile attack +AP dish damage like B-52s. So I'm of the opinion that it does matter, it's easy to test just give CG missile attack of 50 and see what happens. I have not tested anything so take it as observation, not fact.

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Originally Posted by BigTex

Armor caps out at 11. Going to go out on a limb and saying that the game prevents any AP missile from reducing the armor from half of it's original. Rendering anything higher then 10.5 pretty useless.

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The attribute ap halves armour. So a missile attack of 14 (ap) vs an 8 armoured foe would be 14 vs 4. If the attack is 10 (ap) then this would be 10 vs 4 which, unless I'm overlooking something else, is not as much as 14 vs 4...

Im wondering just what "10 vs 4" means though? Is armor a "chance to not get hit" thing or a "if you dont penetrate my armor you wont kill me" thing? Because in both cases id guess that if you have more than twice the enemies armor in attack then youll kill anything your arrows hit in 1 hit anyway?

Im just speculating though as i have no clue as to how the inner mechanics of this game works, i just go by the "higher and cheaper = better" formula ~~

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Originally Posted by Jambo

The attribute ap halves armour. So a missile attack of 14 (ap) vs an 8 armoured foe would be 14 vs 4. If the attack is 10 (ap) then this would be 10 vs 4 which, unless I'm overlooking something else, is not as much as 14 vs 4...

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Would appear I needed more coffee before posting. Completely forgot how the ap worked for a moment.

As for camel gunners, much like reiters. They have a very short range and good accuracy. Put a unit of musketeer's at 50 or less range and you'll get wicked results also. Same with most crossbows.

As for my earlier point. With halved max armor and a good shield you still only have a defense value of 12 to a pavise crossbow.

Missile units are always tricky, their raw ranged attack isnt always a good estimate of their value. I'll take a gold chevroned unit of peasant crossbows any day over most other missiles, accuracy is deadly.