Gaesatae way too overpowered

I do agree that nevertheless they where terrifying units on the battlefields, drugged and fanatical fighters, howewer i find them terribly owerpowered considering the fact that they are basically naked unarmoured man !

Just imagine that a single well pointed arrow, javelin or good cut with the sword would kill the Gaseatae. Not to imagine that any warrior would target his genitalia with the sword or the spear. Despite the fact that they where not used in the battlefields only very rarely (a few times, maybe) thus not represented in EB, even attack dogs could disable in real life units such as the Gaesatae, as they where trained to attack the "soft parts".

Even if the Gaesatae would sustain terrible injuries and still continue to fight, eventually they will dye due to the injuries after the battles. Ancient times had no good medicin, and disabled warriors where left to their doom. It is hard to believe for me that in real history Gaesatae could overcome spartans, roman elite legions, and so on.

Just for a test, i have fought a custom battle on hard , in wich i made a siege with a full stack of Gaesatae against a walled city with 2 full stacks of good armenian infantryman. I even roleplayed the battle, sending the Gaesatae to attack in wawes. Still, in the end, i won by killing 5000 or so of the enemyes and having lost less than 300 man. This is irealistic. Not to mention that i lost few man due to arrow fire, despite that there was a constant arrow barrage from the walls. This is not realistic at all.

Anyway, they are a very cool unit, and fun to fight using them. especially in custom battles, where you can build full stacks of them and put them to fight against different enemyes.

I just wanted to point out that the way they are implemented and their attributes are terribly exagerated, at least in my opinion as a future historian.

with respect,
Rex Pelasgorum

"Just for a test, i have fought a custom battle on hard"

Maybe the problem is right here...

Are they a multi-hitpoint unit by any chance?

I hate multi-hitpoint units (except elephants and chariots). The first reason I moved to EB from RTR was the single hitpoint for general's bodyguards.

[Then I discovered that the EB trait system can give them five or more hitpoints, and saw some real nonsense on the battlefield. I sent a whole Pontic army to kill a Seleucid general (greek bodyguard cavalry) who'd already fled implausibly from one field, surounded him and his two troops with pike phalanxes six deep, pursued him with two generals' fast cavalry units when he escaped the phalangites, and watched him run off the field. He did it again in a similar battle next turn. That man survived three concerted attempts to kill him, then died in a siege. He took nine hoplites with him, fighting alone against about seventy of them in the town square.]

AI generals do usually rack up some extra hitpoints (your generals shouldn't get too many extra, often only 1) but do remember that otherwise, and even in spite of this, they frequently die in battle. If they didn't have extra hitpoints, it would be awfully rare for AI generals to survive at all.

As regards the gaesatae, someone raises this issue every few months, with slightly more frequency than the occasional "the elephants are overpowered." I've never had trouble fighting either gaesatae or elephants, myself, so I'm never sure what the problem is. With the elephants, you hit 'em with a few volleys and that should be about it. With the gaesatae, I usually pin them, get someone in their flank or rear, hit them with a few volleys, and charge. Its rarely very difficult, and not because I'm really good (which I'm not).

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Originally Posted by Morte66

The first reason I moved to EB from RTR was the single hitpoint for general's bodyguards.

[Then I discovered that the EB trait system can give them five or more hitpoints, and saw some real nonsense on the battlefield. I sent a whole Pontic army to kill a Seleucid general (greek bodyguard cavalry) who'd already fled implausibly from one field, surounded him and his two troops with pike phalanxes six deep, pursued him with two generals' fast cavalry units when he escaped the phalangites, and watched him run off the field. He did it again in a similar battle next turn. That man survived three concerted attempts to kill him, then died in a siege. He took nine hoplites with him, fighting alone against about seventy of them in the town square.]

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Um, your talking about two different things there.

No mod would ever allow a general to have fewer than two hitpoints, then they would die fast and you would lose generals quickly, too quickly. Our trait system certainly does not give a general five or more hitpoints, thats just nonsense. Certainly generals are hard to kill, and perhaps they are slightly harder to kill in EB, however that has nothing to do with the gaesatae or two-hitpoint generals anyway.

Foot

Gaesatae are so not overpowered,Hammer and Anvil, skirmishers and Viagra are great tactics to take care of them, when I was playing my Medium battle difficulty(like you should) Those Gaesatae (in those north italy rebel provinces) were easy Imho, sure if you stick like 20 of them there gonna wtfbbqpwn you but thats why they call them elite units.

Heh if you don't like them now, your lucky you weren't planning .72, when they were a lot stronger.

But even so, they aren't that strong. In a battle yesterday *me romans, they aedui*, they had 2 units of gaesatae, which is pretty average. The first unit lost about 10-18 men from pilum and a lot lost 2nd HP. My marian legionaries then brutally crushed them in meele. And what surpised me the most was they were the first enemy unit to rout. They had send 4 total to attack way before the rest of their army got there *1 gaesatae, 1 Batacorii, 1 Gaelaiche, and something else*, and the gaesatae went first, and the Gaelaiche held out the longest.

And for the other unit, that was their front line of this massive inf push fight. My marians were slowly eating them up in meele, when the cav hit their giant inf mass from behind and routed it all.

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Just for a test, i have fought a custom battle on hard"

Maybe the problem is right here...

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In costum battle the bonusses are being granted for both the ai and the player, so it makes no difference...

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Originally Posted by Bonny

In costum battle the bonusses are being granted for both the ai and the player, so it makes no difference...

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Ohhh did not know that...I never play custom battles...sorry my bad.:oops:

Anyway, as other have said...I use the same tactic to defeat "The crazy mob of sausage swinging warriors":clown: the same tactic I use for any other infantry unit. Soften with missiles (Even if you don't see them dying it doesn't mean it is not effective...it will at least remove 1 hp.), Engage, Flank, Rout and Pursuit. I swear it is as simple as it sounds.

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Originally Posted by Bonny

In costum battle the bonusses are being granted for both the ai and the player, so it makes no difference...

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Or wasn't that fixed in some update?

The problem is also the use of a FULL STACK of Gaesatae, no ?
Use a full stack of Spartans Hoplitais / Thorakitai Agyraspidai / Parthan Cataphracts / etc... and you'll get same results.

Personnaly, I never use more than a few ultra-elite units, except for ropleplay reasons ( my Spartan army field more than two unit of Spartans, and my Athenian army had no Spartan but a certain number of elite hoplitais, and U never place more than 2 Gaesatae in my Pontics and Gauls armies )

Now, when the Gaesatae received no arrows, no slings, and charge on hand-to-hand fighting without a single loss, yes, they could be nasty...if the player doesn't flank them.

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Originally Posted by Foot

Um, your talking about two different things there.

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So are the hitpoints for the general himself (one man) different from the hitpoints for his bodyguard?

If so, that's no so bad. Sorry for talking rot.

[I thought the EB bodyguard cavalry was making sense, and not fighting like 2 hitpoint RTR bodyguards or Spartans/Basternae etc. Should have trusted my (substantial) gut over my (apparently less substantial) brain.]

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Our trait system certainly does not give a general five or more hitpoints, thats just nonsense.

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I've got a general Artaxerxes Herakleotes, faction heir of Pontos, with:
Base hitpoints: ??
Man grown: "+1 to your general's hitpoints"
Hale and Hearty: "+3 to your general's hitpoints"
Proud Veteran: "+1 to your general's hitpoints"

So he's got at least 6, if his base is 1. I'm pretty sure that Seleucid general I eventually killed had base+6, but there are about forty game saves he could be in so it's hard to check.

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Originally Posted by Morte66

So are the hitpoints for the general himself (one man) different from the hitpoints for his bodyguard?

If so, that's no so bad. Sorry for talking rot.

[I thought the EB bodyguard cavalry was making sense, and not fighting like 2 hitpoint RTR bodyguards or Spartans/Basternae etc. Should have trusted my (substantial) gut over my (apparently less substantial) brain.]

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The unit are given their hitpoints in the edu, the general himself is given hitpoints by the traits and they can only effect himself.

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I've got a general Artaxerxes Herakleotes, faction heir of Pontos, with:
Base hitpoints: ??
Man grown: "+1 to your general's hitpoints"
Hale and Hearty: "+3 to your general's hitpoints"
Proud Veteran: "+1 to your general's hitpoints"

So he's got at least 6, if his base is 1. I'm pretty sure that Seleucid general I eventually killed had base+6, but there are about forty game saves he could be in so it's hard to check.

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Wow, we should probably put a cap on that or something. Sorry for not believing you.

Foot

gaestae are NOT way overpowered. In medium battle diffuclty they are not that big a deal, in H or in VH you better use terrain advantage, missiles, phalanx, cavalry, outflanking, whatever advantages are available to you.

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Originally Posted by Foot

The unit are given their hitpoints in the edu,

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Gotcha. I edited that for RTRPE/ExRM, making it like EB, and I was a lot happier afterwards.

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the general himself is given hitpoints by the traits and they can only effect himself.

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Fine, I can see the sense in that.

Mind you Gaestae are on drugs. I do not know what they were using, but heard that Zulu wariors (obviously only some) were using some kind of poison, that made them almost super human - not feeling pain, not feeling fear, only what they want was to kill as much enemy as possible. At a cost obviously - they died after the battle in 1-3 days.

Info about them fighting with arm crushed by bullet for example, or big pieces of flesh missing are strangely simillar to those about Celts charging with sarissa through the stomach.

On the other hand do not underestimate skill in weapon handling. If you have seen japaneese martial arts (don't know name of the katana fighting one) this is how very skilled warrior of every era would fight.
If you reach enough high level, you need no armour, or more precisely there is bigger danger that armour will block some crucial moves than a chance that someone will be able to reach you with a sword.

For Seleucid Bodyguards there is one cure in pontic army - chariots. They are not too good for anyting else, but they cut heavy cavalry like no other unit. after while, or if they are loosing they should be reinforced by some cav and that's all.

One possible solution would be to lower their armour a point or two to further emphasise their (existing) weakness to missile fire. I mean, I know 5 is standard for helmeted celt units, but the Gaestae are, well nude.

I read somewhere on this pforum, tahat the problem whit the generals, is in RTW 1.5, wich gives them more hitpoints, (unknow amout) wich makes them harder to kill, thats why you often see the on against all, situation.
Although they are hadr to kill, its posibble, and many times the first thing i do in battles.

The problem is not so much the unit itself, but when the AI starts spamming them. It is not uncommon to see 10-15 units in a full stack. I am not sure what is the best way to handle the problem though. I thought about increasing their cost to cut down on their appeal, but it might do weird things to the AI since I am mid campaign. I am also thinking about tweaking the stats. Something about seeing a bunch of naked guys with 2 hit points just doesn't seem right.

I believe their armour is not merely from their helmet, but an abstraction for being able to shrug off missiles due to the drugs.

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Originally Posted by Amenophis

Something about seeing a bunch of naked guys with 2 hit points just doesn't seem right.

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Have you read their description. They drug themselves up to the eyeballs on pcp and then go into battle chanting war songs. There are accounts of one of these guys taking a javelin to the chest and just shrugging it off. 2hp is the only way to represent this

Foot

I think the problem with the generals just comes from the fact that they (themselves) have multiple hitpoints anyway, which combined with high armour values means that they take aaaaaaaaaaages to go down. It's not actually very avoidable without making the general's bodyguard die far too quickly.

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Originally Posted by bovi

I believe their armour is not merely from their helmet, but an abstraction for being able to shrug off missiles due to the drugs.

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Isn't that what the 2hp is for?

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Originally Posted by Foot

The unit are given their hitpoints in the edu, the general himself is given hitpoints by the traits and they can only effect himself.



Wow, we should probably put a cap on that or something. Sorry for not believing you.

Foot

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https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...light=generals

Remember this thread Foot? The issue with the generals hitpoints has come up before. I think the majority expressed the opinion, that something, anything had to be done to make the generals weaker instead of having them as some sort of Jedi Supermen.
If the average enemy general has 6+ hitpoints due to the amazing amount of experience and traits they seem to pick up something is seriously wrong here.
In an assault it's quite common to see all other defenders slaughtered to the last man but the generals simply won't die.
If you can put a cap on their hitpoints to 2 max 3 (Base 1, the other trough traits) they will still be tougher than the average soldier but not impossible to kill, like some enemy generals that manage to escape with a few lousy militia survivors, only to come back the next turn with a full stack of mercs and a regenerated bodyguard. :wall:

They aren't that hard to take down. Granted half stacks of them are INZANE. However, if the AI starts doing that, you might just have to start dragging around tons of slingers.

Hmm, i play battles by hard, because i play campaign at medium due to my non-agresive external politics.I like alot diplomacy and on hard and very hard campaign, there is little if any of it...

ABout the Generals, the Seleucid generals seem weaklings to me. I fight on hard battles with Armenian against them, and even the crappy Caucaza Sparabara can take on them easily. Even if they have 6 or 7 stars.

If you pinn them down with spears, they will die very easily. Also, when general vs general charges, always press the "alt" key when ordering to charge. So, the cavalry will use in close combat swords instead of spears, wich will make the killing more easy.

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Originally Posted by Foot

Have you read their description. They drug themselves up to the eyeballs on pcp and then go into battle chanting war songs. There are accounts of one of these guys taking a javelin to the chest and just shrugging it off. 2hp is the only way to represent this

Foot

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I understand the reasoning behind the 2 hit points, but still think an unamoured man is going to be more susceptible to a fatal wound then one even wearing a simple pectoral plate, pcp or not. Since they are drugged out beserkers, maybe they should have a lower defence skill? More concerned with attack then defence? High defence skill plus 2 hit points makes for one incredibly tough unit.

Really my only problem with the unit is when the AI starts to spam them. Maybe they should be higher cost/maintenance to reflect their worth?

Well, I think their defense takes into account of the ferocity of their attack. Its hard to kill a naked guy if they're fighting wildly with a single minded purpose to pain you.

If you haven't tried already, throw slingers at them. They die spectacularly well to those guys like almost everything else that isn't insanely armoured. Two slinger bullets will take them down.

asm has a point, if you were looking at a drugged up lunatic, who you can't actually seem to hurt, you'd be more concerned about defence than attack.

They don't really need higher costs, they are actually not too hard to nail unless you're on hard, provided you use the correct strategies. They shouldn't be easy to take down. As a human, you are probably used to cakewalk AI. See this as a fun challenge: how to beat a ****load of gaesatae with a balanced stack.

Yonk!
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=58846