Russian attempts to false history.

Last time into Auschwitz Museum Russian exposition has been closed.
Of course who russian government disagreed because according to them
" Poles are trying to false history ".

Watching this situation I can see how big liar is Russian government and how dangerous is this country for everyone who want peace into Europe.

These Russians forgot to tell that into exposition were being written that people from part of Poland occupied by Russians after their attack on Poland into 1939 (Russians attacked together with Germans) were called citizens of USSR. They forgot to write too that into 1939-1941 over 1.200.000 from these territories were taken to Syberia - especially to Workuta (gold mine, conditions practically like Auschwitz). Of course by Russians.

For me its proof that Russia is not USSR but they are using same methods.
They will never agree that they started war. In my opinion their fault is equal as Germans. Furthermore now they are trying to do everything to hide that.
But truth will be always on top.
What do you think guys?

I wouldn't worry.

I went to the official Chinese museum in Tibet, it was rather amusing. In a sad sort of way.

Um... link? Any link. NOT THE DAILY MAIL?

Does the current United Kingdom have a debt to pay with reference to slavery?

Perhaps.

Does Russia have a debt to pay in the causation of WW2, because under Stalin they did bad things and allied with Hitler.

Perhaps.

Nothing in History is ever clear.

The Connection in my mind is that the British Empire has as much to do with the current UK as the USSR has to do with the current Russian government.

USSR did side with Hitler at the start of the war, and they were punished something shocking for their niaviety. Can we however still isolate Russia for the sins of their Communist fore fathers?

If I was a member of those states that were stalinised I would be pissed off about the whole Iron Curtain, so I suppose I cant judge, but I do want to say that in my limited experience holding a grudge had never brought any benefits.

"History is written by the Victors"

Someone said that...I think...

I'm still waiting for a link.

I'm not sure what to think. Of course I'm not even sure what were talking about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CrossLOPER

I'm still waiting for a link.

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It was written in Russian 'Kommersant', though if I am correct the 'conflict' was created by this newspaper.:thumbsdown:

It seems that Polish-Russian relations are 'too good' for this newspaper.:inquisitive:


@RabidGibbon

Quote:

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USSR did side with Hitler at the start of the war, and they were punished something shocking for their niaviety. Can we however still isolate Russia for the sins of their Communist fore fathers?

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Naivety ... :inquisitive: oh please...

Want link
read previous post and use google :)
Imagine that if you were sitting on Kolyma, your point of view on USSR and Russia would be different. It's still same country with same mentality.

Such things happen and Putin tries to make the mothercountry look better.
He's an old commie so what did you expect?
I think people in Russia should start voting for someone else as long as there are other candidates left to vote for.:juggle2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cegorach

Naivety ... :inquisitive: oh please...

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Stalin was quite naive in signing a no-attack treaty with Hitler and then expecting not to be attacked (even while he was preparing for an assault himself)

In any case the Russian people suffered under their leaders and Russia bore the grunt of the war, they won it for the West, unfortunately they occupied eastern europe for another 50 years.

I don't agree that Stalin was being naive at all, rather it was classic Machiavellian double-dealing. It's just that he didn't expect the Nazis to attack FIRST. He thought HE was going to attack them first... As for the original story, I'm sure most countries have a rosy view of their history, not least those where ex-leaders can be airbrushed out of photographs and written out of the history books.

Do you still believe Germany wants to invade Poland as well, Krook?

No - I believe that they want take our sea road next to Stettin.
Anyway Germany with Russia always wanted weaken Poland.
They are doing it now. If they aren't stopped once for ever, Poland will be always endangered.

You are very good example Stig.

That sea road was given to Poland after WWI, not too suprising Germany never accepted that border. Isn't it natural for any country to try and weaken its opponents. Anyway, it's not like they're trying to do that again.

If it is a previous government many years ago why try to falsify the truth?

Other things suc as the 4.5 million that were starved to death by Russia in the 1930's probably didn't make it to the list either, or the fact the Russian death toll in WW2 was also in large part due to the purge of the Officers in the 1930's, the paralysis of the leadership at the start of the war, etc etc.

~:smoking:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KrooK

Want link
read previous post and use google :)
Imagine that if you were sitting on Kolyma, your point of view on USSR and Russia would be different. It's still same country with same mentality.

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WELL then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cegorach

Naivety ...

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Naiveté

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

If it is a previous government many years ago why try to falsify the truth?

Other things suc as the 4.5 million that were starved to death by Russia in the 1930's probably didn't make it to the list either, or the fact the Russian death toll in WW2 was also in large part due to the purge of the Officers in the 1930's, the paralysis of the leadership at the start of the war, etc etc.

~:smoking:

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Those human wave tactics they used against the Germans didn't help either...

:smg: :charge::army::army::army::army::army::army::army::army::army::army: :whip: :evilgrin:

:daisy: :daisy: :daisy:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KrooK

No - I believe that they want take our sea road next to Stettin.
Anyway Germany with Russia always wanted weaken Poland.
They are doing it now. If they aren't stopped once for ever, Poland will be always endangered.

You are very good example Stig.

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I would love to say this in a nice and sensitive manner, but I don't really know how to so I'll just be blunt:

There are no evil German plans for the weakening of Poland. There is no resurgence of German nationalism. The ghosts of the past are dead. Europe doesn't hate Poland. The EU is not a means to undermine Poland. There are no evil outside forces plotting to betray Poland.

What is real however, is a recent burst of Polish paranoia combined with a twisted, xenophobe, conservative, Catholic, extremist and misguided sense of nationalism that's gone horribly wrong.

Reality is, that the whole of West-Europe is quite willing to accept Poland as an important partner in Europe, embraces it as country with a great past and a promising future, and is often unaware of but not unwilling to learn about Polish history, perspectives and sensitivities.

So get a hold of yourselves mates, Poland deserves much better than this. Here's hoping you follow Spain's example. And I don't mean the Spain of the conservative backlash and that silly, failed military coup ten years after Franco. I mean the Spain of thirty years later, the rich Spain that is at ease with itself and is culturally totally hip and happening.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

How the Kaczynski twins are dragging Poland back in time


The latest clash between the EU and Poland's government, headed by the troublesome Kaczynski twins, Lech (the president) and Jaroslaw (the prime minister), has reinforced the fears that, rather than bringing a fresh and forward-looking perspective to the club, Poland is increasingly playing the role of the introspective and unreliable partner.

That President Lech - the younger by 45 minutes - has suggested the EU should reconsider its ban on the death penalty has alarmed other members. In so doing, he has deliberately attacked one of the core values held dear from Reykjavik to Athens and seen as a condition of membership to a union that Poland joined amid high hopes just two years ago.

Jaroslaw - who was brought into power by his sibling last month - swiftly came to Lech's defence, saying that it was his "private opinion" and "we're not aiming to make any such proposal right now".

But the words "right now" have rung alarm bells in some quarters. How many politicians have managed to turn "private opinion" into public policy? And with more than 70 per cent of Poles said to be in favour of capital punishment, there is a political furrow ready and waiting to be ploughed.

With local elections due in Poland this autumn, it is clear to domestic observers that the stout and silver-haired brothers - who came to fame at the age of five when they starred in a film - are already on the campaign trail. The junior partners to their Law and Justice party (PiS), the Right-wing nationalist party Self-Defence - whose leader has praised Hitler and counts Belarussian dictator Alexander Lukashenko as a friend - and the ultra-Catholic League of Polish Families are standing poorly in the polls. The death penalty topic now forms the main plank of their populist campaign.

The brothers also know that the concept of the strong man Poland standing up to the evil outside goes down well with the electorate and also helps to divert from other more pressing issues, such as Poland's 18 per cent unemployment rate.

Yet the EU's largest new member is attracting increasing condemnation and ridicule amid the twins' regular colourful expression of their extremist views on issues from homosexuality - which they equate with paedophilia - to anti-Semitism, racism and the slighting of most minorities.

"We are radical," admits Jaroslaw, an eccentric, cat-loving bachelor who is said to be distinguishable from his brother only on the occasions that he forgets to brush the cat hairs off his trousers. "Poland needs a certain amount of radicalism to change and cleanse."

That is, it seems, to be at the centre of the brothers' political raison d'être. Brought up as fervent patriots, the sons of intellectual, resistance-fighting parents who read them history books rather than fairytales at bedtime, and instilled in them the sense that they were wronged, their goal - or what they call their "moral revolution" - is to protect Poland from the outsider. The outsider is no better personified than in the forms of Russia and Germany. Passionate conspiracy theorists, they even consider the fall of communism to have been a secret "plot" between the communists and Left-wing dissidents.

An integral part of their moral clean-up includes the instigation of a "truth and justice commission", a McCarthy-style body, which will seek to rid all communists from public life.

The EU, say the brothers, is a threat because of its overly-liberal, Western-oriented, anti-Catholic ways, which have so far made no room for Poland's Catholic conservatism.

The way the brothers are treated in the media only serves to reinforce their sense of being wronged by a liberal elite.

When a Left-wing German newspaper portrayed the brothers this summer as insular and narrow-minded "new potatoes" who knew nothing about Germany except the toilets at Frankfurt airport, Lech cancelled a meeting with German and French leaders, citing "stomach pains". The Polish foreign minister threatened to sue Germany, comparing the culprit newspaper to a Nazi rag, and media close to the twins published the contact details of German journalists working in Poland. Germany politely reminded Poland that it was home to a free press.

The incident spoke volumes about the brothers' style of rule and the sense of paranoia currently sweeping Poland, where foreigners and the Chief Rabbi have been beaten up.

Only a year ago, Poland was being applauded as a role model for the rest of New Europe, as a fresh new player within Nato and the EU and a participant in Iraq. But as a conservative European parliamentarian recently said: "Slowly but surely, Poland is moving towards the same level of respect for fundamental rights and human rights as Turkey."

Quote:

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So get a hold of yourselves mates, Poland deserves much better than this. Here's hoping you follow Spain's example. And I don't mean the Spain of the conservative backlash and that silly, failed military coup ten years after Franco. I mean the Spain of thirty years later, the rich Spain that is at ease with itself and is culturally totally hip and happening.

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It ain't as pretty as you paint it, but your article about Poland is quite worrying...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Conradus

Stalin was quite naive in signing a no-attack treaty with Hitler and then expecting not to be attacked (even while he was preparing for an assault himself)

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The naives are the ones that believe his words when he said that he didn`t expected a war with germany.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RabidGibbon

Does the current United Kingdom have a debt to pay with reference to slavery?

Perhaps.

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not as far as i'm concerned.

any tally has long since been paid off by spending 50 years sending the RN around the world sinking slavers.

besides which, who will compensate us for eating all our missionaries?

And I was warned :) BEcaue I replied on Stig personal attacks.

Germany and Poland signed treaty into mid 90ties. Due to that treaty sea road on Stettin Gulf is polish. But German ships (both civil ships and navy ships) keep breaking that treaty. Some months ago one of civil ship hijacked polish custom officers when they discovered illegal cigarettes on board.

And Louis
Imagine that on East EU and Poland are not only sides of this game.
Do not forget about Russia. EU is supporting Poland and Poland really likes EU (despite its government).
Problem is that Germans into their relations between Poland and Russia sometimes forget that both Poland and Germany are into EU. They prefer to improve german-russian relations even if it is injuring EU. And if something into that region is injuring EU, it is injuring especially Poland.:smash:
Good example would be gas main. Germany decided to build gas main with Russia under Baltic Sea. Problem is that PART OF BALTIC SEA WHEN THEY WANT BUILD THAT GAS MAIN is into polish economical area. I won't mention how it changes energetic situation into eastern europe.
When they finish their gas main, Russia will be able to cut gas to whole Europe.


All in all Louis I don't put my noose into french businesses because I'm sure you know it better than me. But please do same because imagine I know better what is happening on mine country borders :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Krook

And I was warned :) BEcaue I replied on Stig personal attacks.

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Just to be precise: you were alerted (i.e. no "damage" done to you)to make sure that this thread focuses on the topic you put up for discussion instead of being distracted by personal "issues".

On topic (or rather on your subsequent post)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Krook

Problem is that PART OF BALTIC SEA WHEN THEY WANT BUILD THAT GAS MAIN is into polish economical area.

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Please define what you mean by "economical area".

Let me get this straight. Stalin is building a pipeline through Auschwitz and it's all Germany's fault?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Let me get this straight. Stalin is building a pipeline through Auschwitz and it's all Germany's fault?

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Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...eeinternet.jpg

@Krook

Would you shut up, please ...


@Louis VI the Fat


That text is one year old - from 'the Guardian' if I am not wrong.

I must admt that I wonder how little is known my country if the way it is perceived can be changed so easily in some media.

I cannot agree with that picture, but it is neither the topic here nor anything useful to discuss.


Enough with this off-topics -before more Polish-haters (only one is here) will arrive.


The whole thing is silly - 'Kommiersant' wrote about stopping 'a Russian' exposition, Russian politics as usual reacted blindly, without any knowledge and old imperial arrogance. Polish newspapers described it and it appeared in the news - that is all.

I doubt it will continue - it is the usual Kremlin blunder, a self-made scandal without any importance or influence on the already ice cold relationship.

The end.:egypt:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cegorach

@Krook

Would you shut up, please ...


@Louis VI the Fat


That text is one year old - from 'the Guardian' if I am not wrong.

I must admt that I wonder how little is known my country if the way it is perceived can be changed so easily in some media.

I cannot agree with that picture, but it is neither the topic here nor anything useful to discuss.


Enough with this off-topics -before more Polish-haters (only one is here) will arrive.

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Oh my. Well I guess someone who actually lives in Poland should know more than others. I mean it's not really fair to pull up every negative thing about a country and its politics and paint a biased picture... wait...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cegorach

The whole thing is silly - 'Kommiersant' wrote about stopping 'a Russian' exposition, Russian politics as usual reacted blindly, without any knowledge and old imperial arrogance. Polish newspapers described it and it appeared in the news - that is all.

I doubt it will continue - it is the usual Kremlin blunder, a self-made scandal without any importance or influence on the already ice cold relationship.

The end.:egypt:

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Hmm.