phalanxes and sieges

I'm still kinda new to Rome:tw and i came across something while playing the
Greek faction that seems to bounce around in my mind alot. I just got finished
building an army (after about 7 turns of spartan plague later) comprised of
mostly those armored hoplites, a few spartans, and the rest archers. I began
my siege of Athens and afterwards i hate to say i was kinda mad. Is it me
or do phalanx type units suck for sieging settlements? I'm not sure if it's just
because i'm new to it, but in general they seem just too cumbersome for city
takeovers. Plus i had have to switch on phalanx and put my units back in formation over and over turned out to be a real hassle. I was thinking of maybe
incorperating some cav into my future armies but the Greeks don't seem to
have any useful units in that field of expertise. Any thoughts?

Unless I'm missing something big, I'm pretty sure the Greeks have predominantly defense-oriented units, making them a pain when it comes to sieging. I found a nice way around it would be merely to wait for the enemy to sally out to you, where you have the advantage.

(But that might just be me, I have an excessively defensive playing style...)

well i did wait for them to come out for about 10mins, by then my archers ran
out of arrows :thumbsdown:

No, I mean wait them out outside of battle, that way:

A. If they don't attack you quickly, they'll lose units and, as a result, are weaker.
B. If they don't attack at all, you gain the city without a fight (just takes a tad bit longer)
C. If (and when) they do attack, you'll have a slightly weakened opponent who's forced to work aggressively and, possibly, on a time limit.

It's how I've captured all my cities, really. Most often, I find that they tend to sally out when there's only 1 turn left before the city is automatically given to you.

Hi and welcome Zanar,
Unfortunately, to allow phalanxes to be effective in sieges, you have to change their formation. To do this simply right click and drag the mouse till the unit is long, thin and, most importantly, is able to easily fit through the streets perfectly with few gaps either side, let go and your unit is in a new ranking formation. At any point in the almighty siege you can do this to make sure that your unit has no flanks and, any unit that wants to attack it, has to face the epic frontal spears that nothing can break through. Hope this helps you, cheers!

Actually, in the streets phalanxes are the perfect unit. Progress may be slow, but it´s steady. The key is getting past the walls. I strongly recommend to use tunnelling and Onagers (to knock out the towers). Phalanx units are lousy one-to-one fighters, so siege towers and (even worse) ladders are out of question.

ladders are only good in the hands of archers or heavy peltasts; send them to take position on a undefended part of the walls and shoot defenders in the back.

the only way for a hoplites/phalanx faction to assault walls is to use mercenaries (thracians, bastarnae, anything not "phalanx")

stick to the ground otherwise...

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Originally Posted by Poulp'

ladders are only good in the hands of archers or heavy peltasts; send them to take position on a undefended part of the walls and shoot defenders in the back.

the only way for a hoplites/phalanx faction to assault walls is to use mercenaries (thracians, bastarnae, anything not "phalanx")

stick to the ground otherwise...

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I've had some great successes with Hoplites / Armoured Hoplites and Scaling Ladders, I suppose it all depends on whom you're up against? Not ideal though as they're at their best on the ground in phalanx formation of course. This formation is seriously overpowered though, and is virtually unstoppable in the city streets, and anywhere else for that matter. I haven't played enough of EB but I do know that it was removed altogether from RTR, and it is a definite improvement. This makes the Phalanx units work more like the spear units from MTW/STW (holding troops).

Thanks for your insight guys. And i do know about changing formations but
the problem was i would have to change it everytime i switch my units from
phalanx because when switched they seem to break the formation i gave
them :thumbsdown:

I must say, i agree with the majority what is said here. Keep in mind, i am playing a Roman faction, the Brutii. So, i am pitched up against the Greeks, and as lately, against the Egyptians. Sieges in Egypt are totally different from the Julii sieges in Gaul, Germany, Dacia or Britain. Its city-siege, mostly. Fighting in streets, not some backwater primitive blob of thatched-roof huts. To my amazement, i realized how effective the Hoplites are in my city sieges. I am now extremely fond of my Hoplite mercenaries, i will ship the new recruits all the way back to Tarentum and retrain them there for the weapon/armor upgrade, and ship them back down in Egypt. Not to mention they are invaluable vs those pesky chariots and Desert Cavalry.
What i do, is to punch a hole or two in the wall, destroy the gatehouse and position my Hoplites in the new opening in the wall, usually provoking the enemy cavalry to attack my phalanxes. Yeah, right, poor Egyptian cavalry.
One of my fast light unit (like those mercs with falxes or the arcani lol) will rush to the walls disabling the towers. For all that time my archers are behind the Hoplites firing at anything that the enemy is throwing at me. Then, only then, will my Legionaries march into the city and proceed to take over the city square, again in concert with the Hoplites. The phalanx is a city street meat-grinder. They even dont mind (too) much a couple arrows in ther backs by my faithful Cretan archers lol. I only wish i could actually train my Hoplites like the greeks, Egyptians and other can... I disable their phlanx formation only if i need them to shortly rush somewhere (like through an active hostile gatehouse with oil defence), but mostly, i keep their phalanx formation, send them somewhere confident that they will reach their destination, no matter what. My job is to protect their flanks and rear, and to take care of any hostile missile unit.:2thumbsup:

Y.

Don't forget when you take your phalanx units out of formation to fight close up (such as when they scale ladders) to turn off guard mode too. They'll fight more aggressively and effectively that way. Armoured Hoplites and Spartans aren't too bad with swords, so if you have a surplus of them in your army, a couple of them can be used to clear the walls if need be. Though generally it's best just to knock the walls down with onagers. You can also use Heavy Peltasts as a pseudo-light version of a legionary. Have them pelt the enemy with their javelins, then charge when they're out of missiles. They're cheap enough not to worry about, plus give a bit of mobility to your otherwise slow phalanx army. But as others have said, hoplite formations are generally excellent for street fighting. They can hold off enemy units and cavalry which gives you the perfect opportunity to manoeuvre more troops around the rear of the engaged enemy units, thereby sandwiching them between your hoplites and your other men. The worst part is the constant need to babysit your hoplites progress through the city even when using grouped formations, as they tend to get out of position and become vulnerable whenever the width of the path changes and so forth.

One of the interesting things about the Greeks is their reliance on the slow hoplite phalanx formation, so that if you want to change tactics, you need to recruit mercenaries for the job. Illyrians, Barbarian and Sarmatian Cavalry, Bastarnae, Spanish Mercenaries etc all add extra dimensions to the Greek war machine.

The phalanx is unbeatable during sieges, especially in defense. Just park a unit of hoplites on all the streets leading to your main square. The enemy will impale themselves on the spears trying to get to your central square! I have won many battles where the odds weren't in my favor this way.

Although I have taken walls by storm with phalanx type units, I prefer not to. This is especially true when besieging a walled city that has a full stack defending it.

When you lay siege, build as many towers as you can, and build more every turn. After two or three turns, you can have 15 towers or more. Place them all across the area you can, set them to fire at will. Hit the wall with the towers, and if there are defenders where you hit, you will need to reinforce them. Everywhere else on the wall that isn't manned by defenders, you send your other towers, preferably filled by light infantry, or fast heavy infantry such as Thracians or Bastardae. Run these through the towers, converting them into your own service, as well as make the gates your own. When the walls, gates and towers are yours, dash the cavalry in. If the town square is heavily defended, bring your heavy infantry to the ground, and march your archers up behind them. Shoot them first, and let your infantry take down the rest.

If you have time, and the enemy doesn't have another full stack army about to come stick a spear in your backside, I agree with StirfriedYen to wait them out. On the other hand, if there is a full stack inside the city, and another about to stab you in the back, it may still be better to wait them out. When the battle starts, go to the high ground, and make them chase you. By the time they get there, they are tired, you are rested to "warmed up." Often the reinforcing army from the city does not even show up.

In X number of turns, they will either surrender, or sally forth (in depleted numbers). If you set your towers to fire at will as they sally, a large portion of their army will die just from your tower missiles. Somebody said something along the line, "If you find yourself in a fair fight, it wasn't planned very well." Isn't that the truth? I agree.

My own question in all of this, if we can burn their rams, burn or chop down their towers, then how do we destroy their ladders?

I'm sure I've taken more cities by the enemy sallying out than by storming the walls, even more by an enemy army attacking me as I besieged, and the garrison comes out to reinforce them. Stroll to your prize!

You can do it!

Strength and Honor

Celt Centurion

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Originally Posted by stirfriedYen

Unless I'm missing something big, I'm pretty sure the Greeks have predominantly defense-oriented units, making them a pain when it comes to sieging. I found a nice way around it would be merely to wait for the enemy to sally out to you, where you have the advantage.

(But that might just be me, I have an excessively defensive playing style...)

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Good idea Celt regarding the mass of seige towers. Never thought of taking an approach like that. Sounds like fun. I can hear the defenders on the walls now... ... "They're attacking us... run for your lives...!!!!"

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Originally Posted by LuckyDog Trojan

Good idea Celt regarding the mass of seige towers. Never thought of taking an approach like that. Sounds like fun. I can hear the defenders on the walls now... ... "They're attacking us... run for your lives...!!!!"

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Thanks LuckyDog Trojan.

It has just occured to me how to deal with ladders. Build a "large" stone wall. They cannot even use ladders then! Duh!

When I get back into the game, I'll be upgrading all stone walls to "large stone walls" when the city is big enough. Why didn't I think of that earlier?

Strength and Honor

Celt Centurion

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Originally Posted by LuckyDog Trojan

Good idea Celt regarding the mass of seige towers. Never thought of taking an approach like that. Sounds like fun. I can hear the defenders on the walls now... ... "They're attacking us... run for your lives...!!!!"

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So am i!:2thumbsup: ,now i can put those building point into good use even i just encircled them coz most of the time i assault!!!Still we got lose sometime.....in strength..hah:laugh4: so we wait..

hmm, let me say something from my experience with such an occurance. I usually don't tell my Hoplites/Pikes to use the phalanx until I get within range of the enemy, in an area where I know I can use it effectively, also try and support them with other units like cavalry, peltasts or archers. oh yes and onagers definately, I usually use them to make a huge gaping hole in the enemy's wall, then pour through it. and I mean maybe even a whole section of wall, I usually use all my onager's ammo to hit the walls and then charge in. sorry if this has been said already :sweatdrop:

Personally I've neber had that problem. I love phalanx. But of course all I mostly do with them is blitzkrieg. It really works and i always have minimal losses.:beam:

The real problem i have with phalanxes is their speed. cant chase the enemy down when they rout without breaking formation so u cant build up momentum, jst hav to stay still and wait for each unit to break on ur spears

Phalanxes rule and Hoplites are supreme, nothing can beat them!(honestly they beat evey single other unit).

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Originally Posted by Xehh II

Phalanxes rule and Hoplites are supreme, nothing can beat them!(honestly they beat evey single other unit).

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I find they do have trouble if they can't catch the enemy. Take horse archers... However, in a siege, I agree. They beat all. Still doesn't hurt to have support from archers or skirmishers.

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Originally Posted by mightilyoats

I find they do have trouble if they can't catch the enemy. Take horse archers... However, in a siege, I agree. They beat all. Still doesn't hurt to have support from archers or skirmishers.

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Yep, your right there. I have seen a huge army of Pike Phalanxes cut up by a (my) large Parthian horse-archer formation. The AI wasn't especially intelligent in that battle however, the phalanxes chased after my units, with phalanx on, leaving their pathetic flanks on show to the rest of my archers. It lead to a rather gory pile of Seleucid bodies on the ground. It was fun, yet a little too easy for my liking.

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Originally Posted by Xehh II

Hoplites are supreme

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Their most unfortunate problem is their vulnerability to anything with longer pikes. The Greek Cities experience that problem rather badly.

Total agreement with 'ya Omanes. Several HA unit's can totally chew up several Hoplite/phalanx units before they hit your main battle line. And I agree that it can be a little too easy. Now when (and if) the AI is smart enough to dispatch cav units towards your HA's (thus causing them to move out of range), it can be a different story.

Spartans rule the sieges both offensively and defensively. When on the offense, I disable the phalanx formation and defense mode, give them ladders/siege towers and then watch how they take over the walls....doesn't take long. They bust out their swords and hack it out in close melee, not even Roman cohorts can stand up to them. Once the walls/gates are taken, then rest of the units triumphantly march into town to deal with any survivors. Spartan casualties tend to be in single digits.

Like in any other situation in the game, one-type army is often doomed even before the real battle starts. Same is with Hoplite-only armies. But, give them archer support, some light cavalry, some good melee units to flank the pinned enemy units, and watch them rock. In my previous campaign, as a Julii, i was thinking i was doing good. But now, as a Brutii, with their immense denarii generators, easy available Hoplite mercenaries, elephants, camel archers scaring enemy horse units and peppering the rather static (enemy) Julii armies, i am just ploughing through the Julii empire in western Europe.:2thumbsup:
Their (Hoplite) only drawback is that i cannot re-train them, am forced to replenish the losses with green recruits watering down their precious experience. I committed my whole empire to train and displace hordes of peasants (unit size 60 aagh) and finally have one 24.000+ city, means i can now build the foundry, and all my units will be retrained for extra attack/defense bonus from it. Hoplites first, of course. :laugh4:


Have fun.

Y.

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Originally Posted by Omanes Alexandrapolites the Idiot

... I have seen a huge army of Pike Phalanxes cut up by a (my) large Parthian horse-archer formation...

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Playing as Parthia I just build a large army with ONLY horse archers and a general. By the time I run out of arrows, the enemy is either routed or so tired they can barely walk. The remaining units get mopped up by my general (just flank them, they are too tired to notice) The Seleucids are toast like that.

Finally, what I mean to say is: Phalanxes are not supreme, sometimes they suck. That is the opinion of mightilyoats. :smash:

:beam: I usually find taking them out of phalanx formation until I have the walls under control and my troops marching down the streets. I don't know how this works for others but it's good for me. Of course you've got to have good hoplites, I generally use experienced armoured hoplites.

Seluecids have it better than the Greeks , with their legionaries.

I have certainly found that once you are past the walls phalanxes are perfect. The defenders just smash into them, take horrendous casualties, break and run away, then run back for more. With three units of archers with flaming arrows, it is quite nasty.

Obviously, with wooden walls that you can take down with rams, phalanxes have no trouble. Send skirmishers and mercenaries to knock three holes in the walls, then send in the phalanxes for the enemy to crash against hopelessly.

For stone walls it gets trickier. Most of the time I just auto-resolve. If it's a close thing, then probably mercenaries along with judicious use of missile weapons should work. Onagers would do the trick too (blast three holes in the walls with onagers instead of knocking the holes with rams). I have only used mining once, when I discovered it existed by accident. That would probly be a very good way to get through without storming the walls, and gives your peasants something to do.