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Just want to direct your attention to a thread containing new stats for the Casse General Chariot Unit. We would like you to test them out in your current campaign (the changes are save game compatible) and report back with the results. The stats will probably have to be tweaked some more, but only you can tell us what is working and what is not. Thanks!
Great news...will try it out tonight. The weak chariots were the main thing keeping me from playing as the Casse
bump
*re bump*
*+1*
couldn't resist...
I rarely used the Casse bodyguard chariots in combat prior to applying the new stats, so I can't really draw any direct comparisons between the old and the new. With the updated stats, though, the chariots seemed able to hold their own the few times I put them in battle situations. They can run through infantry units without excessive casualties, and the effects seem appropriate (the unit becomes disorganized and its morale drops somewhat). They managed to rout a depleted bodyguard brihentin unit rather quickly in one battle against the Aedui, which impressed me. Still, I'm not sure I'd hazard charging them through an entire line of infantry, particularly with a valuable general on board.
This was rather short and vague, I suppose, but like I said, I don't use the chariots that often in combat. I hope this feedback is somewhat useful, at least.
I played a great Casse campaign back in 0.74 taking all of Gaul and pushing into Italy and Germany before turning to a Aedui campaign in .80. Then the chariots were good, able to take on cavalry and to bust through lines of infantry without much loss. The only problem was the vanilla skin...
Awesome new skin comes out but the chariots suck... tried a campaign with them as I loved the new units avaliable for the Casse but gave it up quickly because the fragile chariots. Might have been good for a light skirmishing/chase down routers unit, but not for a general's bodyguard.
These new stats are better and I did some custom battles against the Sweboz as I didn't want to start a campaign to see how things worked...
Battle 1:
Sweboz army: (stays same in all three scenarios)
1 Herthoz general
2 Ridoharjoz
2 Frankamanoz
2 Habuko-z Swait
1 Sahsnotoz
Total: 686
Casse army:
1 Cidainh general (new stats)
2 Cidainh
2 Lugoae
2 Kluddobro
1 Botroas
Total: 636
Round 1 results: Sweboz victorious with 434 kills, Casse with 473
Round 2 results: Casse victorious... 363 kills, Sweboz 56
Battle 2:
Cidainh general replaced w/regular Cidainh (army total up to 666)
Round 1: Sweboz victorious with 366 kills, Casse with 235
Round 2: Casse victorious with 249 kills, Sweboz with 86
Battle 3:
Regular Cidainh replace w/2 general Cidainh (new stats but half men- army total 606)
Round 1: Casse victorious 346 kills, Sweboz 95 kills
Round 2: Casse victorious 369 kills (no chariot losses), Sweboz 22 kills
Battle 2, Round 2 I think was a perfect combination/timing of javelin throws, infantry charge and chariot fear that allowed for a quick rout... especially as one of the chariot units briefly came in contact with an Sweboz infantry unit, lost 4 chariots (eight men) and routed even though the majority of chariots weren't engaged...
The new stats definatly helped keep the general units in battle longer/till the end, even in hand to hand w/infantry.
Against cavalry I ran some different tests, 3 Cidainh generals against cavalry units of nearby factions usually out numbered... 61 chariots againts ca. 150 or so horse.
Against:
3 Brehetin (sp) the Cidainh lost 2 of 2: 105(C)hariot kills, 44(H)orse/87(C), 41(H)
3 Equited Romani: Cidainh won 2 of 2: 131(C), 8(H)/131(C), 24(H)
3 Ridoharjoz: Cidainh won 1 of 1: 91(C), 2(H) didn't do a second test as it was againts light cavalry...
3 Iberi Curisi: Cidainh won 2 of 2 99(C), 4(H)/107(C), 16(H)
3 Ambakaro Epos (Iberian medium? cavalry): Cidainh won 2 of 2: 132(C), 24(H)/134(C), 35(H)
3 Sacred Band: Cidainh won 1 of 2: 151(C), 54(H) actually came down to a battle of generals.../74(C), 50(H).
I remember the old chariots did well against cavalry and this seems to be the case with the new stats... although the one sided victories may have to do with the AI not switching to secondary weapons in melee...
Also, maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that the melee attack animation is the same as the javelin throw... is it possible that could be change to a sword attack? Or did I just not notice the correct anim?
I havent tried the new stats yet, but at the present stats chariots absolutly destroy all calvary if you get them to chase you. Whenever a horseman touched the back of a chariot he would die.
I've played with the new stats for a couple of hours, and I can confirm that the chariots are much less fragile and as a result much more useful. Perhaps they even have become a bit too sturdy: Gaeroas seemed to have trouble taking them down in melee. All or nearly all casualties they incurred were the result of missile fire. Haven't tested this thoroughly, though (I still did not like leaving them in melee for longer than a few seconds), and Carnute Cingetos turned them into firewood pretty quick.
Howe routing;.ver, they still barely cause any casualties in close combat, even when you charge a pinned enemy unit in the back. Missile fire is their main killing weapon, and since they can fire even when in melee it's best to leave fire at will on at all times. Missile fire, especially from javelins, also seems the best way of bringing them down.
Anyway, I can now have them plough through a melee without the unit evaporating in front of my eye, so that's definitely an improvement.
Weak Chariots also put me off Casse, how do I get these new stats or are they automatic?
It actually has the link to the relevant thread in the first post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xehh II
Foot
The new stats suck, the chariots are still to weak.
Woah! No need to be rude. If you want to offer criticism, how about making it constructive. Don't say that things suck, people have worked on them and truly its hardly considerate or respectful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xehh II
Chariots are not meant to be super-strong, particularly against light infantry. They're only use in melee situations is to break up heavy infantry formations, other that you should keep them out of melee completely.
But please, if you want to help then you'll need to offer some feedback, if you don't want to help then please don't be so rude.
Foot
Sorry, I tested them against light inf. maybe I was a little to quick to judge.
Been playing the Casse as part of a testgame to modify the money script.
The new chariots are good. They are infact a lot better than the Hellenic scythed chariots. Although they are used in pretty much the same way.
The javelins give them ranged attack which is allways good to have. Unlike their Hellenic counterparts they can actually enter a melee with some types of infantry and hold their own for a while without routing like the greek ones do.
They have their weaknesses. Most notably the same that elephants have which is a shower of enemy javelins. Running them trough enemy formations has that same wonderful shock effect with flying soldiers and broken formations.
I actually built a standard Celtic chariot just for comparison. How in the hell have the Casse ever been able to play with such a horribly useless general unit? The old chariots are weaker than paper, have little or no morale and the moment they get cought in a melee they die like flies.
You had to play cowardly, which is what we're trying to fix now. Previously you couldn't even think about committing them to battle, now you can use them as demoralizing javelineers without worrying too much that someone turns around and breathes at them. I'd still keep them out of melee as much as possible though.Quote:
I actually built a standard Celtic chariot just for comparison. How in the hell have the Casse ever been able to play with such a horribly useless general unit?
I used them against cavalry (in v0.80) - but only as a last resort. They also made good cheer-leaders as long as they stayed behind the battle line.
The biggest problem was using them on settlement maps - they just couldn't get through gates without an enormous effort. This was OK if I was attacking - I just left them outside, but when I sallied I had to keep the chariots well out of the way to avoid a major traffic jam at the gate.
The first time I sallied with the Casse, my chariot general got stuck halfway through the gate. I was trying to rush my whole force through a single gateway. Once mixed with other units, it was impossible to get all the chariots either in or out - they kept doubling back and blocking the gate. I still hadn't sorted out the mess when the battle timer ran out. :wall:
Whenever I sallied with them I always made a point of exiting the settlement from the gate furthest away from the enemy - I do it with all factions anyway, 'cause getting bum rushed halfway through isn't my idea of a good time. They tended to get out easily enough, although it took a while especially with the huge faction-leader bodyguards and you had to be pretty darn careful not to mess any other unit into the procedure.
Yes, if you sally out and choose a gate other than the one directly facing the enemy to exit, the enemy will face up adjacent to the wall and it will play out like a normal battle. I hate siege battles, and this is a good way of getting round it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Foot
I successfully completed a Casse campaign in 0.81a but after the 220 reforms i switched the general bodyguards from chariots to Rycalawre following directions in a Watchman post which are just wonderful in battle and to look at, marvelous skin...
I managed to play with them as they were running them wherever the battle was thicker to throw some javelins and to frighten the enemy troops and encourage my own.