Pissed off... (aka, why are the Sabyn so difficult?)

-I've been playing EB for a short while now and it has it's ups and downs(Mostly because I don't know how everything works yet) but I'd just like to share an annoying incident with you(And then ask a few questions):
-I was playing as Saba and had expanded to Cenca and Saurotae(Or something... Don't look at me like that) and had been busy building up my infrastructure. I now felt it was the right time to expand and so I rallied my army and looked to the east. At this time the Seleucids had expanded down to the center of the Arabian peninsula and had armies popping by my territory all the time. So, I was moving towards the city when I noticed that my army didn't move too fast(Campaign restrictions...), but I thought "hey, a few more turns won't matter." Apparently it did matter... After spending 15-20 turns marching across the desert I am hugging the city wall, but of course I can't attack the city at that time, so I end my turn. Then, from thin air comes a Seleucid army consisting of a cavalry unit and a phalanx and attacks the city, dragging my army into the fighting. Having played MTW mostly I assume that things work the same, the most numerous of the allied forces(I'm allied with the Seleucids at this point, they allied with me on the same turn they attacked) gets the province and so I happily deploy my army to crush the opposition.

-It was a nice battle by the way; I divided the army into three groups, two identical ones consisting of one Sabean Levy Pikeman unit, one Bodyguard unit, one Arabian Light Infantry unit and a Archer-Spearman unit in a single column, the Pikemen at the front, Bodyguards behind them, Infantry behind them and Archers at the back. The third group was cavalry harrassing the flanks, moving all over the place. I sent the two identical columns forward towards their individual city passage. When the enemy would try to attack they'd first be hit by a shower of arrows, then a volley of spears, then another volley of spears. They usually retreated by the last volley and those who didn't would run straight into a wall of spears. The AI focused on the column with my general and my cavalry had to work hard to ensure that no enemy units outflanked it. As that was going on my second column had with no opposition managed to march close to the city center and around the same time my first column reached the passage and the cavalry was free from guarding the flanks and so moved around to another passage(At the same time the Seleucid phalanx had reached the city...). With both my columns standing in a passage, sending volley after volley of spears and arrows into the enemy army - positioned in the middle - protected by pikemen at the front and cavalry moving in from the side the final push began. Both pikeman units advanced while my cavalry blocked the rear, arrows and spears still flying, the noose tightened, the enemy eliminated. The Seleucid phalanx was busy walking down the passage still, not a single kill by it or the cavalry unit...

-And then it zoomed out to the campaign map and what colors do I see? Grey... I'd spent 15-20 turns covering a minimal distance only to be robbed of the town by a 114 man army that didn't even come close to the enemy? And the bloody autosave was after the battle so I couldn't undo the (Minute)damage to my army. And that's how I gave up that campaign...


-Now, a few questions... How do you manage to get a stable income with the Gaetae and the like? I try to capture some cities as quickly as possible but the treasury bleeds like 5000 each turn and by the time I get a city I have to sit around for ages not doing anything while I let me treasury get balanced again.

-And where can I get a good description of the buildings in the game, the ones that are missing in-game descriptions and perhaps some more detailed explanations of exactly what the various government systems do?

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Originally Posted by Tartantyco

-And then it zoomed out to the campaign map and what colors do I see? Grey... I'd spent 15-20 turns covering a minimal distance only to be robbed of the town by a 114 man army that didn't even come close to the enemy? And the bloody autosave was after the battle so I couldn't undo the (Minute)damage to my army. And that's how I gave up that campaign...

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Well that particular battle mechanic is RTW, not EB... the army that initiates the attack always (?) gets the city.

1) In RTW its whoever is sieging a city is the one who gets it. No way around that.
2) That's just a choice you have to make with factions like the Getai, Sweboz, etc. You either disband most of your military and live threadbare until you can build your economy a little or you go a-conquering until you start making positive money again. Not really much of a middle ground either way. When I played Sweboz it wasn't until 260 or whatnot before I built anything, but by then I had something on the order of 17 territories and it snowballed from there once I got to build stuff again.

Well, one problem is that you are picking difficult factions, and with the Sabaeans - maybe the one that is least finished at this stage, when you aren't very used to EB to begin with. I'd advise, if this is your first few times, to try some easier factions, plus look at some of the official strategy guides on the Gameplay subforum. They are stickied. They really let you know what you have to pay attention to in EB that is different - especially at the start of a campaign. You've got to be really prepared to march into enemy territory in EB, unless you've got an awesome army and general or just are an excellent player. This goes triple for a faction like Sabyn marching into places where there are Seleukids. What buildings are you talking about that lack descriptions? Well, Sabyn has more than anyone else, so it's no surprise, but for most all other factions there should be at least some description there.

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

Well, one problem is that you are picking difficult factions, and with the Sabaeans - maybe the one that is least finished at this stage, when you aren't very used to EB to begin with. I'd advise, if this is your first few times, to try some easier factions, plus look at some of the official strategy guides on the Gameplay subforum. They are stickied. They really let you know what you have to pay attention to in EB that is different - especially at the start of a campaign. You've got to be really prepared to march into enemy territory in EB, unless you've got an awesome army and general or just are an excellent player. This goes triple for a faction like Sabyn marching into places where there are Seleukids. What buildings are you talking about that lack descriptions? Well, Sabyn has more than anyone else, so it's no surprise, but for most all other factions there should be at least some description there.

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-I find that the Sabeans are easier than the other ones, you can build a good economy from the start, there are plenty of expansion possibilities and no real threats. And I generally don't like starting with alot of provinces(I like to build my empire from scratch) so the Sabeans felt right. It was just that annoying event that put me off that particular campaign with them. And as for the strategy guides, I really don't like it when it's a "go there, take this, build this" guide, which most of the ones there are, I'm looking for general advice on what limitations a faction has, what is the best income source for it, etc.

-But I'm going to try another faction tomorrow, not sure which one yet. It'll probably be a European one. Time for bed...

Pick the Sweboz. Of all the "build it yourself" empires, they probably have the easiest go of it. You still are likely to end up with a solid chunk of negative change unless you disband the army but your only enemies are teh Aedui and Arveni, who won't bother you until much later and will happily sign peace with you.

I will have to second the Sweboz. Only one town, so that fits your wish, and their units are awesome. I'm totally in love with them, and if I started talking about them more than this, I would go on forever. They're just that great.

Arverni/Aedui are also fun, and if you choose them, keep a good eye for when you get a specific unit. I won't say it's name (you'll know which I mean when you see them anyway), but all I can say is that they're badass. And I mean REAL badass.

Whatever you do, don't play as the Romans. Just don't. Stay away from them.

:furious3: What you doin' badmouthing dem Romani? I have had the most fun BY FAR with the Romani. Sweboz come in at #2. I'll take my Roman legion and thrash your German horde any day! :clown:

Yeah, just come to Teutoberg Forest and I'll show you how much a legion's worth. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Tartantyco

-I find that the Sabeans are easier than the other ones, you can build a good economy from the start, there are plenty of expansion possibilities and no real threats. And I generally don't like starting with alot of provinces(I like to build my empire from scratch) so the Sabeans felt right. It was just that annoying event that put me off that particular campaign with them. And as for the strategy guides, I really don't like it when it's a "go there, take this, build this" guide, which most of the ones there are, I'm looking for general advice on what limitations a faction has, what is the best income source for it, etc.

-But I'm going to try another faction tomorrow, not sure which one yet. It'll probably be a European one. Time for bed...

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The Sabaeans are both hard and easy in many ways. No faction that borders the AS will ever have an easy time but the desert is big and it takes time for the Seleucids to get to you. In the early game the best sources of income are Maryab, Carna, Tamane and on the african side Axum and Meroe.
You can take Sabata too. But it has an annoying port bug which makes seatrade impossible. So even with heavy investment it rarely brings in decent income. Feel free to enslave it, than abandon it. Makes a good source of manpower if it gets big enough under the Eleutheroi.
Dumatha can be a good source of income too, but it requires a mining center to bring in cash and since it is a prime target for the AS it's easier to let them have it and upgrade it. When it gets the mining center though. That's when you take it.
Bostra is also profitable, but it's too far away to be of use in the early game. The two gratest sources of wealth in EB are mining and trade. Particularly seatrade. Unfortunately the Sabaeans only maritime trading partner is likely to be Egypt since by the time they get decent ports built they will be at war with the AS.
Never trust the AS as the Sabaeans. They will betray you. Spies are good at causing unrest and tying up troops for garrisons.
With the AS steamrolling the Ptolies at some point of the game or another, it's important for the Sabaean player to take as many Egyptian provinces as possible. Only the coastal provinces will bring in some income but the more provinces the AI holds. The richer it gets.
Besides the Galatikoi Kleruchoi reagionals in Egypt along with Elephants will let the Sabaean player beat the crap out of the AS. No matter what troops they stick in your face.
Apart from that blitzing trough Asia Minor or Mesopotamia is the only way to hurt the AS hard. Hardest hit they take is in losing they primary MIC:s. With those gone they will have to rely on mercs to get truly elite stacks.

The Sabaean unit roster is incomplete. They will never get any pikemen so most of their units are light skirmishers. Their spearmen have higher morale than most so they can be expected to hold the line for a long time compared to more common militia. The heavy infantry is good but not great. And their medium cavalry while expensive is simply the best in the whole game.
Together with the african regionals the Sabaeans can create an almost unstoppable army. As for the early game. Remember the greeks can't run in the desert as long as you can without getting exhausted. Also there are plenty of places in the desert where the rough terrain will brake up the phalanxes. And outside the phalanx formation Sabaean heavy infantry can slaughter even silver shields.
And if they bring more elite units like Thorakitai Argyraspidai or Hypaspistai, use slingers. They're cheap, mobile and can slaughter everything.

My strategy guide has this all in more detail. But since you just wanted the basics, here they are.

TA is right though. If you haven't played much EB, try an easier starting faction to learn the game with than the Sabaeans. Any faction that dosen't share a border with the monolithic greek juggernaut of Arche Seleukeia is a safe bet.

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Originally Posted by Tartantyco

-Now, a few questions... How do you manage to get a stable income with the Gaetae and the like? I try to capture some cities as quickly as possible but the treasury bleeds like 5000 each turn and by the time I get a city I have to sit around for ages not doing anything while I let me treasury get balanced again.

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Expand or disband. See my sig for one expansion...

Normally in EB you disband troops you won't be needing for a while, because it's cheaper to recruit them again than pay them for four turns. But a lot of the starting factions are difficult because they can't build their own starting armies. [This offends me.] The Getae start with a nice army in the field, but they can only build skirmishers and it will be a long time before they build more.

So I'd use that army, use it to conquer rich provinces with the minimum marching (i.e. upkeep). Eventually between conquest and troop losses you'll go into positive income. The better you do, the more provinces and less debt you'll have when it happens. Then pay off your debt and start building governments, roads, ports etc.

Morte, at least as far as the Getai are concerned, the armies contain stronger troops than you can build for one chief reason: just 6 years before the start of the game, a fair bit of Getic military infrastructure was destroyed by the Galatians. A king and other nobility died, several cities burned. Zalmodegikos and the other Getai are, in a very real sense, starting over.

If anything, we might consider bumping up the MIC level by one increment, but really, its relatively easy for the player to build himself, if he should choose that route early on. Most usually don't, so there's not much I can do there. I would personally like to make the Getai starting position more difficult (rebellious Getic tribes nearby) for the player, but from AI reports, it would probably just mean a slowly-expanding faction might just die out.

I'm not an early expander myself: the land rush doesn't seem right to me. I usually try to grab one territory quickly, and with two income producers, I disband lots of troops and start building. If you disband and wait to build your economy from a single province, it can take you years and years to send out your first expedition to go "visit your neighbors."

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Originally Posted by paullus

Morte, at least as far as the Getai are concerned, the armies contain stronger troops than you can build for one chief reason: just 6 years before the start of the game, a fair bit of Getic military infrastructure was destroyed by the Galatians. A king and other nobility died, several cities burned. Zalmodegikos and the other Getai are, in a very real sense, starting over.

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Well I can't argue with that. It's an absolutely incontrovertible response. :)

Might I humbly suggest that you put a paragraph on this recent history in the descriptive text, that you get when you chose the faction (or read on the EB website)?

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Originally Posted by The Vicious Monkey

Yeah, just come to Teutoberg Forest and I'll show you how much a legion's worth. :laugh4:

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Touche. Though admittedly it was a combo of bad Roman general + brilliant tactics by the German leader. Give the Romans a competent, experienced general and I would at least give them a 50/50 chance. Of course, I don't believe a competent, experienced general would quite have fallen into the trap. But this is all way OT. I shall stop thread-jacking now. :shame:

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Originally Posted by LordCurlyton

Touche. Though admittedly it was a combo of bad Roman general + brilliant tactics by the German leader. Give the Romans a competent, experienced general and I would at least give them a 50/50 chance. Of course, I don't believe a competent, experienced general would quite have fallen into the trap. But this is all way OT. I shall stop thread-jacking now. :shame:

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I think you are being unfair to Varrus here. He was leaving the apparently pacified province of Germania for the Roman winter quarters south of the Rhine (as every Roman army seemed to have serious trouble foraging in that area) when all of a sudden their main German ally attacked them while they were at their most vulnerable. I doubt anything but a military genius could have rescued the situation then.

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Originally Posted by Tartantyco

Then, from thin air comes a Seleucid army consisting of a cavalry unit and a phalanx and attacks the city, dragging my army into the fighting. Having played MTW mostly I assume that things work the same, the most numerous of the allied forces(I'm allied with the Seleucids at this point, they allied with me on the same turn they attacked) gets the province and so I happily deploy my army to crush the opposition.

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Very, very bad of me to do this of course, but hehe once I was Seleukids and my allies the Hayasdan were besieging Kotais. "But I want to have that province! So you better get lost!", I thought and I layed siege on the town as well. Bringing a full stack army with my general the Hayasdan felt that now our combined forces would be strong enough to take the town. So, they assaulted it - but being the merciless and devious RTW Basileus I am, I clicked "withdraw" and the Hay forces were utterly crushed. Next turn my army was still besieging the town, because it hadn't participated in the battle - and this time I assaulted. I, of course, suffered minimal casualties as the Hayasdan had done most of the job that turn before.

What can I say but "Politics & Strategy"? :grin:

^^Great tatics, letting your allies do the job.

On the subject of allied battles: My girlfriend Karielle had an Aedui campaign where her fullstack and a Getai fullstack were besieging Eburonum together, it was still Eleutheroi. Along came three Sweboz armies, which would make up a fullstack combined, and attacked her army from three directions. There was a grand Getai/Aedui allied battle against the Sweboz. Bet no one's had the experience of ambushing two enemy armies in a row without them being able to prepare, and then fighting an allied -field- battle after that. :D

Okay, back to topic.

-I'm currently trying out Casse, I can build them from the start, have a good economy by disbanding my fleet and a few units, and focus on infrastructure. Casse and Saba have been fighting for "wealthiest faction" for eight straight turns now, alternating every other turn.

Play the Sweboz. There units are awesome, the come from germany (kinda biased towards germany since my father lived there in his teens), And sorry if this is overused but I can't resist, The germans completely pwned rome during the barbarian invasion. My other choice is the getai a celtic faction, baktria, epeiros, KH, Maks,and Lusotannans. Truth is play any faction seems attractive to you. I've had pretty good campaigns as romani and sweboz. I'd reccomend them both

In Vanilla RTW, i always used to make use of my allies. Particularly when playing as one of the roman factions... since they start with an Onagers, i will take a small force along with onagers and go around to the expansion side of the other families (if i play Julii, i will go to sicily or tarentum)... I will wait till the other family besieges a settlement.. and then move in and attack in the same turn... In the battle i will just breakdown the walls and my faithful allies will go thru it (most of the times they coming running around the wall under fire - talk abt faithfulness!!!). They will kill most if not all the enemies giving me a settlement with very few losses if any...