Hundred Thousands March in Turkey

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6554851.stm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070414/...a/turkey_march

Ah yes, one of the biggest, if not the top, totally democratic from the start to the end gatherings of Republic history of Turkey took place today.

There has been an overwhelming pressure and reaction against Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who started his governing political career as a puppet of USA, getting out of the jail after the visit of the "skillful" Turkey ambassador of USA of the time, Eric Edelman. You heard about "moderate Islamists", didn't you? Yeah it's lovely when extremists come to mind but it was just a label how we were imposed Erdogan and his gang as a government. I remember how Washington Post and several other papers were celebrating the welcome of this "moderate Islamist" government.

With his political party's solid existence in the parliament, now this puppet is looking to take over the chair of presidency in the upcoming president elections, which will eventually mean his government will be able to pass any laws they wish to. They clearly are not moderates or something. In politics, in Turkey, you can't be moderate, you are either using such camoufalge for your radical political intentions or not. This country has never seen the else way, if there ever is.

Mainly because of that perception of threat against a secular Turkey recently, and also under anti-imperalist, Kemalist guidance as well, hundred thousands gathered in Ankara. Friends who were able to join the march said that the gathering was not a cartel of any political party or something. All such banners distracting the essence of the march were taken down.

I have never seen Turkish people so bold and determined lately, using their democratic rights in a democratic way no worse than a Western society.

14th of April has been the day again when Turkish society proved out their stand against radical Islamists and their "moderate make-up" artists.

We just don't want this guy sitting by the knees of a Ladin supporter, former-USA tool mullah used against the Soviets in Afghanistan, to reach where Ataturk had been once.

https://img175.imageshack.us/img175/4605/recoptr3.jpg

Photos from the march here.

https://img138.imageshack.us/img138/8138/miting2bl7.jpg

This is not a propaganda. I'm just amazed how my people learned to react with a loud voice, totally democratically, after such a long anesthesia, striving to safeguard Atatürk's heritage.

Just out of curiostiy, does the army still have the power and obligation to protect the state against Islamic take overs ?

My knowledge of Turkish history is quite bad, but I seem to remember that there have been a couple of attempts to found an Ismist state which were always countered by the military, but that the military has lost some power recently, mostly because of the EU who doesn't like the idea of military oversight of the government.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doc_bean

Just out of curiostiy, does the army still have the power and obligation to protect the state against Islamic take overs ?

My knowledge of Turkish history is quite bad, but I seem to remember that there have been a couple of attempts to found an Ismist state which were always countered by the military, but that the military has lost some power recently, mostly because of the EU who doesn't like the idea of military oversight of the government.

---

Army is the protector of the Republic of Turkey, as it is the same for any other army, for any other country. And the army is still fortunately very sensitive against radical Islamist movements.

There have been a couple of military coups. The one in 1960 was made against a "moderate Islamic" government who were daring enough to replace the high cadre of the army in 1954. In 1981, the whole country was a fight yard for the Leftist and Rightist extremists, casualties were as frequent as it is now in Iraq. So army took over the charge again.

However in 1997, the Islamic movements were very frequent again by the courage of the government, which was a coalition of Necmettin Erbakan's Refah Partisi (Islamic) and Tansu Çiller's DYP (middle right). Erbakan was by far the most daring Islamist among all other politicians in Turkey's history. The one whom hundred thousands opposed today for his election as a president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan was a subordinate of him as well. We can say Erbakan brought him up. However they fell in dispute afterwards. (Though their ideals still are the same and stand)

Following the joining of Iran ambassador a gathering named "Jerusalem Night" organized in a town named Sincan (which was obviously an Islamic gathering favoring Palestine) and demonstration of Hizbullah posters in that night, some tanks that were returning from an operation practice, drove through the roads of that city on 28 Şubat 1997. After that date, the government was shaken, Erbakan was taken down and a new government was formed. Something they call a "post-modern coup", that was.

Briefly, Turkish army is very sensitive against the Islamic movements. They dismiss a number of soldiers every year, who are generally spotted as Islamists to leak into the army.

It seems like a somewhat stable system, though it also seems to be almost inevitable that if the system continues for long enough an islamist will eventually join the group of generals.

Why is it that Turkey still has so many problems with islamists ? Is it simply Islam, or religion itself ? Like (evangelist ?) christians keep influencing US politics ? Even if the followers are a minority they are simply far more politcally engaged than the majority ?

Or is there truelly a desire among the Turks to form a state based on Islamic law ? I hesitate to use the term sharia because that is afaik a rather extreme interpretation.

Well, I sort of doubt the majority of Turks want a state based upon Islamic law. For every Turk that wants a state based upon Islamic law, there's at least one that wants a secular state. If it ever came down to it, I think the tension in Turkey would get down to some rather severe violence.

But it won't get to that level, right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doc_bean

It seems like a somewhat stable system, though it also seems to be almost inevitable that if the system continues for long enough an islamist will eventually join the group of generals.

Why is it that Turkey still has so many problems with islamists ? Is it simply Islam, or religion itself ? Like (evangelist ?) christians keep influencing US politics ? Even if the followers are a minority they are simply far more politcally engaged than the majority ?

Or is there truelly a desire among the Turks to form a state based on Islamic law ? I hesitate to use the term sharia because that is afaik a rather extreme interpretation.

---

Well, something we are not hoping for indeed. Though the USA supported moderate islamist Fethullah Gülen's community continuously tries to leak in, they get spotted somehow.

Well the background of the neverending Islamic threat upon the system has two factors behind, me thinks:

1- Turkey, although built from the scratch, is built and relies on an Shariyah-based state's society, Ottoman folk, that is. Though people evolve by time, and things are less fanatic with the folk, we are a young country yet. The self-awareness of the society about the benefits from secularism will take more time to settle. However, worldwide events such as, 9/11 and the anti-Muslim hate evolved afterwards is a countering factor in this balance.

2- The neighboring Muslim countries (except for Azerbaijan) and Turkey always failed at dialogues, stretching towards dangerous tensions. So that, especially Iran was effectively "exporting Islamic regimé" through funding extremist groups like Hizbullah and such.

This is encouraging news, LEN. The secular Kemalist republic is well worth putting up a fight for.

Brilliant. :balloon2: :turkey: :balloon2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

This is encouraging news, LEN. The secular Kemalist republic is well worth putting up a fight for.

Brilliant. :balloon2: :turkey: :balloon2:

---

Seconded.

Was Kemal not an ally of the US himself ?

Good news.
Lets us hope first that the army will remain to it's place and second that the movement will grow.
Secularism is something worth fighting for, mostly in a muslim country.

Good show. Let's have some more demonstrations of the Turkish spirit of freedom.

I am reading Taner Akçam's history of the Armenian genocide right now, which has been translated into Dutch. Excellent book. Akçam should be professor in Turkey, not in Minnesota.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine

There has been an overwhelming pressure and reaction against Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who started his governing political career as a puppet of USA, getting out of the jail after the visit of the "skillful" Turkey ambassador of USA of the time, Eric Edelman.

---

I wont profess to know Turkish history or precedent, but peaceful demonstrations and rallies are a good thing. For me, any movement away from the U.S. by Turkey is a welcomed positive outcome. The less we have our fingers in everyone elses business, the better for us in the long run.

Indeed, erdogan was portrayed here in the U.S. as a staunch US ally, but more and more its apparant to the voting public here in the states that populations dont always hold the view of thier elected leaders.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sinan

Was Kemal not an ally of the US himself ?

---

The sympathy was due to that only Wilson Principles were recognizing the Turkish existence by that time (though it was defending every other minorities and group's distinctively as well).

Although the Independence War may also be examined as a piece of armed anti-imperialist struggle, Mustafa Kemal and his comrades were absolutely not friendly against SSSR and communism.

Briefly, ally is a harder word to pronounce for Mustafa Kemal and his comrades' view towards USA - it was all of a sympathy emerged from Wilson Principles.

Quote:

---

I am reading Taner Akçam's history of the Armenian genocide right now, which has been translated into Dutch. Excellent book. Akçam should be professor in Turkey, not in Minnesota.

---

One thing I can never understand here in the Org. "If it is about Turkey, bring up EU or Armenian Issue" :no:

1- So what, Adrian II ?

or,

1- I'd like to inform you that Taner Akçam refused to join a debate on a Swedish (IIRC) TV Channel without giving any reliable reasons which Mustafa Perinçek would participate as well.

Mustafa Perinçek is one of the leading academicians on the refusal side of Armenian Genocide, who has books on it, joining and organizing seminars panels about the issue. I'd recommend him as an alternative read as well if available to you.

However, in general, I'd be more pleased with improving the understanding that every debate concerning Turkey should not be undermined with EU or Armenian Issue every time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Odin

The less we have our fingers in everyone elses business, the better for us in the long run.

---

That was simple, wise and kind. Thanks. :bow:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine

Mustafa Perinçek is one of the leading academicians (associate professor) on the refusal side of Armenian Genocide, who has books on it, joining and organizing seminars panels about the issue. I'd recommend him as an alternative read as well if available to you.

---

I can't seem to find a Mustafa Perinçek on Google, not a single one. Same in the Dutch national library system. You are not confusing him with Doğu Perinçek, the ex-Maoist politician who converted to Turkish nationalism and militarism?

At what university does Mustafa Perinçek teach?

Check your PMs please, AdrianII :bow:

Just to thicken teh plot, my google does give a hit when I search for "Mustafa Perinçek" "atom bombasi"

~;)

Millions march in Turkey today, for the same cause as April 14 march.

BBC News frontpage headline.

I'd hazard to say that Mustafa Kemal was pretty extreme himself, as far as religious matters are concerned. Certainly, the man's legacy as far as secularism, whether it accurately represents his own proper views on the matter, is quite clearly vitriollically anti-clerical and anti-religious in its nature. I find that just as despicable as seeing some Salafist junta come into power in Turkey and forcing their particular minority view of Islam on the general populace.

"islamist"

"minority"

How did these guys get a majority of seats in the parliament?

According to the 1982 Turkish constitution a party needs over 10% of the total votes to enter parliament. AP got around 34% but they have an absolute majority in the parliament.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenring

"islamist"

"minority"

How did these guys get a majority of seats in the parliament?

---

- Being a toolset of Great Middle East Project of USA
- Representing a "moderate Islam" face as an American tool to play with a country's internal affairs
- Total failure of all political parties in the recent years, yielding no new and promising face for the future

= Absolute majority in the parliament

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine

- Being a toolset of Great Middle East Project of USA
- Representing a "moderate Islam" face as an American tool to play with a country's internal affairs
- Total failure of all political parties in the recent years, yielding no new and promising face for the future

= Absolute majority in the parliament

---

Perhaps I am reading your post incorrectly but it reads as if you believe the current government is a tool of america?

If that is correct, how is it that america has such a powerful influence in Turkey? It was my understanding that Turkey was a working democracy, so I dont see how america can be held to account for the short comings of an elected government.

Seems far to convient to blame someone else for the problems, additionally I find it rather amazing the vast influence that the US is able to impose on such a vast amount of countries worldwide.

I dont know lefteyenine, seems to convient to me to blame the US for an internal issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Odin

Perhaps I am reading your post incorrectly but it reads as if you believe the current government is a tool of america?

---

It is widely believed in Turkey that USA made AKP(the islamist party) win the elections.

I disagree and see this only as a conspiracy theory.

For years Turkish people have been brainwashed by Islamic cults and similar institutions. Some parents send their children, before they can even read and write, to imams for teaching them Kuran. This is the reason why AKP got so many votes. With such a population, I find it absurd that people are blaming USA for the success of AKP.

USA just uses whoever comes into power.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Komutan

USA just uses whoever comes into power.

---

On that I wont dispute, my government uses all and any leverages it has to influence decisions of other governments. I recall before the Iraq invasion a 6billion aid/incentive package for turkey if they allowed us to invade though thier soil, they said no.

While i dont try to minimalize the impact of US influence, I dont think the U.S. has quite the vast influence in the operations of foriegn governments that a lot of people believe.

If I am mistaken, then its a remarkable achievement for my government and something I would be very proud of. To somehow be able to weild that much influence abroad is indeed very powerful.

On a personal level I find it hard to accept the ease in which some transfer blame so readily to the U.S. for thier own countries woes. I wont proclaim that the U.S. is a complete innoncent, but at some point the peoples of said countries have to take responsibility for thier chosen leaders.

Nothing would give me greater pleasure then to have a Turkish government who was less cooperative with the u.s as a whole, and more dedicated to its own ambitions. Turkey has a very important decade ahead of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Odin

On that I wont dispute, my government uses all and any leverages it has to influence decisions of other governments. I recall before the Iraq invasion a 6billion aid/incentive package for turkey if they allowed us to invade though thier soil, they said no.

---

Actually they said "Sure, why not?" then "Well, it's not enough." then finally "Yankee go home!" I suppose we need better puppets in Asia Minor. :smash:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vladimir

Actually they said "Sure, why not?" then "Well, it's not enough." then finally "Yankee go home!" I suppose we need better puppets in Asia Minor. :smash:

---

You mean, it isnt the U.S. 's fault they said no? :dizzy2:

I'm thoroughly confused. Why would it be in the US interest to have Turkey turn into another Islamic state?

Obviously, the Lizard Alliance is way too clever for me. :stunned:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Odin

You mean, it isnt the U.S. 's fault they said no? :dizzy2:

---

Of course it was! They weren't offered enough money.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vladimir

Actually they said "Sure, why not?" then "Well, it's not enough." then finally "Yankee go home!" I suppose we need better puppets in Asia Minor. :smash:

---

No, this is not the way it happened. The government agreed to help USA, but the parliament said no. Mind you, both the government and majority of the parliament belonged to the same party(AKP). The prime minister could have forced his own parliamentaries to vote in favour of USA, but instead he let them vote free. He thought, that his own parliamentaries would vote yes even if he didn't force them and by not forcing them he won't lose too much popularity by his voters, who are Islamists and dont look kindly upon the invasion of an Islamic country. But a good number of AKP parliamentaries voted no. It was a big blunder on the part of the prime minister.