How does the Makedon Faction Leader get Misellenes(hates hellenic people)?
Isn't Makedon Hellenic? Does that mean he hates himself?
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How does the Makedon Faction Leader get Misellenes(hates hellenic people)?
Isn't Makedon Hellenic? Does that mean he hates himself?
From what I gather by reading all the various info you can find in-game, Makedonians were NOT Greeks, but a very Hellenized group of people just to the north (which is geographically correct). They also had strong ties to the Thraikian tribes and other tribes (I would presume the various Getic and Illyrian tribes are also in there to a lesser extent) and could probably best be though of as Greco-Thraikian rather than "true" Hellenes, ie pure Greeks. Thus he can technically have the trait, which just means he hates Greeks, who in their turn probably look down at these "upstart" Makedones who "stole" their ideas and such.
We aren't trying to make controversial statements here with that. That mak trait is just indicative of a distrust of other "soft" Hellenes. He believes Macedonians (greek or not) are superior to (other) greeks. We obviously don't mean he hates himself. It's just the different side of the Philhellene trait.
Yep, quite true. We Epirotes and them Makedonians bore the burden of defending the borders from Illyrians/Paeonians/Thracians, paying a very heavy price for it, and the southrons didn't even believe we were Greek. :wall: (Who do you think stood watch while the southrons had their golden age and then fought each other-There is a reason why only Persians and Gauls broke through and reached down south)
(To the delight of our neighbours throughout the millenia who have gone on to claim our name and identity for themselves)
I guess such a trait could very well exist in the sense " You arrogant... (insert favorite swearword, probably one to do with female genitalia). Here we are defending you from outside enemies, we fought our common foe to Indus and back, and you deny us our very own ethnicity? Well (insert ugliest form of "copulate") you right back. From now on, we hate your (another favorite swearword, this one with unspeakable implications on one's mother) guts!"
Still happens you know, but in footy terms. Athenians get some ugly treatment in Thessalonike, like their car's license plates spray painted red or black, or even pink, having a pitta with just tomatoes and a straw in them, rather than meat, (a "south" greek idiom that), etc.
So basically the southern Greeks regarded their northern cousins as a bunch of savages barely fluent in "proper" Greek, and said rustic cousins returned the sentiment by regarding their more urbane southern kin as decadent wimps - standard neighbourly/brotherly love, in other words. :beam:
Bet you it took a long time before the different Latin tribes stopped looking down on their noses at each other and began to regard themselves as collectively "Roman" as opposed to something else, too.
Everyone should watch out when one does a mod because what one uses in game may be misinterpeted from someone who isnt Greek and doesnt know the facts of Greek history. Your remark there about "miselenes" indeed could cause confusion to everyone but Greeks.You could have a trait that says for example thet "he doesnt believe in the need of unity among Greek people". That would be more accurate.
I'm rather under the impression the chronically independent-minded southern Greeks of the poleis were major nonbelievers in "need of unity among Greek people" as well (nevermind now being somewhat leery of counting even Thessalians into that category)... the Maks and Epirotes with their traditions of reasonably central monarchical rule were actually probably way more amiable to that idea in general terms.
keravnos and merilitos are right you should put another term and not missellen even though it's more accurate.Furthermore how people who had greek names,spoke a dialect of greek and wanted to unite not (subdue) the southern Greeks were not Greek i don't understand.Remember the shields which Alexander send to Athenians after his first victories against the Persians what was written upon them (Alexander and The Greeks Except Spartan from The Barbarians(no offense) who dwell on Asia),he didn't write Alexander, Macedonians and Greeks.... this shows us that he and other macedonians considered themselves as Hellenic.As For the relationship with the other Hellenes look how Germans,French and English had many wars and hated it each other even though they all are of Germanic origin
This is a huge argument that streches from before the Trojan War until present day. Plus, many people have strong emotions and are quite invested in it.
Simply put, Macedonians weren't nessicarily the same exact people as "the Greeks". "The Greeks" would often think that they were inferior and didn't like them due to their dialect (which Philip switched to Attic Greek anyways, so their language differences were not an issue in our time period), culture, and different traditions. Of course, you have to keep in mind that "the Greeks" thought less of everyone: the Persians, the Egyptians, the Etruscans, even other Greek cities when they felt like it.
The Makedonians were probably the same race of people, though not "pure" like the Southern Greeks due to their proximity to other peoples.
Even though, it may be argued now that they are the same people, at the time they didn't nessicarily think so. The southern Greeks didn't like the Makedonian (or the even Thessalians all that much, for that matter) and there was some discrimination. And the Makedonians returned that disdane.
And remember people, names, racial locations, and likes & dislikes of today don't have nessicarily anything to do with people, names, racial locations, and likes & dislikes of the game's time.
Having just subjugated Hellas the Macedonians obviously had a rather pressing vested interest in the idea of "Greek unity" (their own sense of superiority nonwithstanding; I've read of an interesting duel fought between a Greek athlete and a Macedonian pezhetairos which well illustrated the tensions), which so far as I know the denizens of the peninsula, fiercely proud of their separate communal identities as they were, didn't want anything to do with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Agiselaos
Fat lot of good it did them. The poleis revolted pretty much en masse the second they heard Alex was dead, were again subdued by the Diadochi (who weren't yet at that point at each others' throats; it should incidentally tell something that most if not all of them were of Macedonian origin...), and tried again with more success once said potentates were busy with each other.
One does have to keep in mind that beyond rather local and regional levels and some very vague associations due to (nominally, thanks to innumerable local dialects and patois) shared language and culture people simply did not very much identify with something so abstract as "nationality", save for defining their own general reference group from others in rather general terms. That sort of thing is by and large very much a modern, post 1800s phenomenom.
Chill out pc people. It is just a game.
We should "watch out"? If people want to interpret things wrongly, it's not our fault. People can take their modern political views and roll them up into a really tight little wad and... well, I don't think we care too much. Every single one of these people were racially biased against every single other one of these people. That was life. The misellen trait doesn't have to do with 'not believing in a need for unity of greek people', it has to do with having contempt for (use 'other' here if you like or don't, it doesn't matter to me) greeks. Other greeks had contempt for the maks. Achaeans/Ionians had contempt for dorians and they had it for them too. Anyone who thinks that anyone with a drop of greek blood lived in hippie-flowers-in-their-hair harmony with everyone else who had a drop of greek blood is bleeding nutty.
Well said. Could not agree more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
:laugh4:
That was pretty succint. Yeah, if there was someone the diverse "Greeks" fought as often, intensely and bitterly as each other the poor guy is entitled to a fair bit of sympathy.
Simply put: Hellen is the general term for Greek, Macedonians, Epeirotes and others are just as Greek as anyone among the "Southerners" (just read Herodotos, he claims that there are quite a few Phoenician/ Egyptian influences, especially in the south...). Next: because of it's general meaning, Hellen is used to either note "we Greeks vs. those barbarians" or "we vs. the other Greeks". The latter, of course is the case with the misellen trait and Greek character combination. The person doesn't like all those others calling themselves Greeks and considering him barbarian. "What?! They would call my kin barbarians, when in fact we did all their dirty work?! And to think they dare to stand against us! Buggers!"
From what I remember, Alexander refused to call himself Greek because the Hellenes called his father, Phillip a barbarian. :book:
Wasn't his mother Olympias Illyrian or something along those lines ? You don't need to live on Baker Street to deduce what that made for his standing as far as the peninsular Greeks were concerned...
Although they probably weren't too loud about it for obvious reasons. :sweatdrop:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OlympiasQuote:
Olympias was daughter of Neoptolemus, king of Epirus. Her father claimed descent from Neoptolemus, son of Achilles. When her father died ca. 360 BC, his brother and successor Arymbas (grandfather of Pyrrhus of Epirus) made a treaty with the new king of Macedonia, Philip II of Macedon. The alliance was cemented with a diplomatic marriage: Arymbas' niece Olympias became queen of Macedonia in 359 BC.
She was born in Passarona, an outskirt of present day Ioannina. Pyrrhos, her brothers' grandson married an Illyrian princess, along with many other women. (Quite the polygamist, Pyrrhos was)
Hmmm...right....and exactly where did you read this? And the next thing you are going to tell us is that Homer was a Turk and his real name was Omar? Come on people...Macedonians where originated from the same tribe that the Spartans came. And talking about purity, is there a civ that is pure? You are what you believe in your heart and your mind, period. Even today, people who live, lets say to the US, will say that they are from LA, or Ohio. Does that mean that they are less American? So why does it make it so difficult to understand that people would call themselves macedonian, athenian, or spartan and still feel being a part of the hellenic world at the ancient times?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lomma
The point isn't that people are the same or different or that they are pure or unpure. The point is that other people saw them that way, whether it was the truth or not.
What I wonder is what makes it so difficult to understand that they also regarded themselves as quite specifically Macedonian, Athenian and Spartan respectively relative to each other, and whatever very vague idea of mutual "hellenic" identity there might have been was purely in relative terms regarding, say, Thracians, Romans or Persians.Quote:
Originally Posted by meliritos
And did not particularly mean they preferred each other over said odd foreigners, indeed quite the contrary. One need merely compare the number of bitter wars the "hellens" fought against each other to those they fought against assorted strange foreigners, and their ready willingness to accept the assistance of the latter to gain an edge over the former...
Look at the Scots and the Irish (don't know much about Welsh) but they surely don't consider themselves part of the great "English world". If you call a Scotsman an Englishman he'll always correct you and say he's Scotish...
Same with the Macedonians, Athenians, Spartans and probably all the other inhabitants of other major polis.
Or the Medieval North Italian city-states. The poor Venetian-Genoese relationship was almost legendary, and the rest hardly less quarrelsome...
or if you call a Korean Chinese or Japanese he will correct you, I know because im Korean and I've been to Korea and most ppl I've talked to about it take it very seriously. People seem to have the misconception that all asians are the same... :thumbsdown:
Or as one travel guide I often consulted there drily began, "the Japanese are very proud of their distinctive culture while carefully ignoring their virtually undeniable Korean origins..." :shrug:
Youve got a significant mistake here...The Scots are celtic inhabitants of the British Isles that had a completely different culture language and civilisation than the invading Germanic Angli...Quote:
Originally Posted by Redmeth
Makedonians, Spartans, Athenians had the same language, art, religion and general civilisation...just read Isocrates and youll understand what Im saying...
From my understanding the Makedonians only adopted the "Greek" Language after Philip changed it, somewhere around 350 b.c.ish.. (just a rough guess on the date)Quote:
Originally Posted by hellenes
I'm sure they thought about this,
If it walks like a greek, and talks like a greek....
that doesnt mean its a greek.
Life is complicated. Take a really simplistic view of most stuff in ancient history and EB and you're probably wrong. We sort of think this is so important that we've made it our subtitle.
You know when there is a 0 evidence of a dinstict (NOT A DIALECT) "Makedonian Language" we cant just make up stuff just for the sake of it...Quote:
Originally Posted by MastaSpoofa
Taking guesses is not history. Ill tell you sth that is not a guess. In the ancient times only Greek people were allowed to take part in the Olympic Games, not barbarians (as the Greeks called anyone who was not Greek). Macedonians, Athenians, Korinthians for example took part in the Games and some of their athletes won from time to time some events. That is not a guess, thats a fact. You can fight these evidences with guesses but those who read these lines know better than to trust guesses and not historical facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by MastaSpoofa
And that thing about the Scotts and such. Yes they live in England and yes they call themselves Scotts and they dont like it otherwise. Thats fine by me. But dont try to compare the situation of the Scotts of the medieval or modern times to the Greeks of 450 B.C. Even the notion of recognising the Greek identity for the city states of that time is an advanced idea for that era. But if you are talking about the modern times and you use the Scotts as an example, then you mix up two things. If you are talking about the modern times then the Macedonians, the Athenians, the Corinthians and the Spartans of our time will answer that they are Greek when you ask them. So what does this tell you? Take a guess...